Not By Works

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PHart

Guest
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed G4972 G2532  us, G2248  and G2532  given G1325  the G3588  earnest G728  of the G3588  Spirit G4151  in G1722  our G2257  hearts. G2588


His Spirit given never leaves us or will He forsake us. He remains faithful when we are not, for He cannot, will not, deny Himself. The foundation is secure because He keeps us. Promises are all through the scriptures.


Sealed:

G4972

σφραγίζω
sphragizō
sfrag-id'-zo
From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.
Total KJV occurrences: 26

security and preservation.

two greek words to explain sealed. The second:

G2532

καί
kai
kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.
All the promises are conditioned on believing and continuing to believe. You're ignoring the condition for the sure and unmovable and eternal promises of God.

Did you notice that there has to be a difference between 'disown' and 'faithless' in 2 Timothy 2:12-13? 'Disowning' has one outcome, and being 'faithless' has another. So we know that they have to be two different and distinct things that have two different and distinct outcomes:


"If we disown him,he will also disown us;13if we are faithless,he remains faithful,for he cannot disown himself."



If you disown Christ, you get disowned by Christ (unsealed). But being faithless in your bad hair day in Christ, all the while clinging to the blood of Christ for forgiveness, won't cause Christ to disown you. He can't because you still believe in Him. Your continuing belief, despite your failures, makes you a part of Him such that He can not disown Himself. But your unbelief will indeed cause Him to disown you. You are no longer a part of Him that He should have some kind of obligation to keep you.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is the seal that they depart from iniquity,for there are many that claim Jesus as Lord,but hold unto sin,and think they are alright,and they never learn throughout their lifetime that sin does affect their relationship with God.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Salvation is available to all people.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.

Everyone that confesses Jesus is Lord,and come in flesh,God is working in their life to help them to see the truth,and that truth is to be led by the Spirit,and abstain from sin,and if you do sin do not hold unto sin,but repent,and let it go,but the main thing is do not hold unto sin,and think you are right with God,for that is what God wants us to understand,for we can always be forgiven for sins,but we need to realize the truth that holding unto sin,and thinking we are right with God is the culprit.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many are called,but few are chosen,which is why many people can claim Jesus as Lord,and come in the flesh,but still not dwell in heaven,for God wants everybody to be saved,so we have a choice in the matter,and we still have a choice after we are saved.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Every time we sin we put ourselves in a position of not being right with God,and the blood of Jesus cannot wash it away until we get rid of it,and not want it.

And at the time we are holding unto sin,then we are considered not in the truth,and a sinner,and need to be converted again,which means repent of all sins,and do not want sins.

We can always be forgiven of sin,even if we hold unto sin for a year,but the culprit is people that hold unto sin,and it is part of their lifestyle,and they think they are right with God,for then they never give up the sins they enjoy,which is why the Bible says they are ever learning,and never able to come to the truth.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Many are called,but few are chosen,and anyone that thinks they stand,take heed lest you fall.

But some will not give heed,because they are ever learning,and never able to come to the truth,and that truth is do not hold unto sin,and think you are right with God,for then the blood of Christ cannot wash away that sin.

such good scripture, but then you interject your own thoughts which negate the Word.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Which exact verse are you speaking about? Since I never know with the way you take things out of context. :p


Did you forget? John said the man who doesn't have works is not born again.

So if you make James about being saved unto rewards and that a Christ professing person can indeed not have works and still be saved on the Day of Judgement then you put James in direct contradiction with John and the rest of the whole counsel of God's word.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Imagine if someone gave me the keys to a car and said go find the car
and drive yourself to safety.

One group say believing in the promise of the keys is the answer, we do nothing
the keys save us, and argue at length you are a fool not to believe in the keys.

The other group grab the keys, find the car and drive off.
This is really this simple, but so many really appear not to care or even understand
the gift of Christ.
 
Z
Unhinged all of osas but they will argue anyhow
All the promises are conditioned on believing and continuing to believe. You're ignoring the condition for the sure and unmovable and eternal promises of God.

Did you notice that there has to be a difference between 'disown' and 'faithless' in 2 Timothy 2:12-13? 'Disowning' has one outcome, and being 'faithless' has another. So we know that they have to be two different and distinct things that have two different and distinct outcomes:


"If we disown him,he will also disown us;13if we are faithless,he remains faithful,for he cannot disown himself."



If you disown Christ, you get disowned by Christ (unsealed). But being faithless in your bad hair day in Christ, all the while clinging to the blood of Christ for forgiveness, won't cause Christ to disown you. He can't because you still believe in Him. Your continuing belief, despite your failures, makes you a part of Him such that He can not disown Himself. But your unbelief will indeed cause Him to disown you. You are no longer a part of Him that He should have some kind of obligation to keep you.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
All the promises are conditioned on believing and continuing to believe. You're ignoring the condition for the sure and unmovable and eternal promises of God.

Did you notice that there has to be a difference between 'disown' and 'faithless' in 2 Timothy 2:12-13? 'Disowning' has one outcome, and being 'faithless' has another. So we know that they have to be two different and distinct things that have two different and distinct outcomes:


"If we disown him,he will also disown us;13if we are faithless,he remains faithful,for he cannot disown himself."



If you disown Christ, you get disowned by Christ (unsealed). But being faithless in your bad hair day in Christ, all the while clinging to the blood of Christ for forgiveness, won't cause Christ to disown you. He can't because you still believe in Him. Your continuing belief, despite your failures, makes you a part of Him such that He can not disown Himself. But your unbelief will indeed cause Him to disown you. You are no longer a part of Him that He should have some kind of obligation to keep you.
Disown is not in that at all.

For one thing, the born FROM ABOVE is dead to sin and alive to God. We are saved because we obeyed or believed the gospel of His sacrifice, and then graced or empowered by HOLY SPIRIT.

Its the work of Holy Spirit to keep us. Our faith grows in strength and roots go down deep in our "earth" and nothing can stamp it out.

Why you do not understand this simple word is beyond me when all the scriptures declare that we have died with Him, and live in resurrection life.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Some things cannot come from a change of mind after things have been put into being as an established truth.

Can someone by an "act of their will" or "changing their mind" un-born themselves from being a human being?

Can they one day say "I don't want to be a human anymore so I as an act of my will by changing my mind - I am un-borning myself" ( we would think there is something wrong with this person's mind and there is..:) )

Can some one by "an act of their will" through the "changing of their mind" stop being a son/daughter to someone? Of course not - they will always be the child of their parents once they are born whether they like it or not.

We can no more by "an act of our will" un-born ourselves from God which Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed which lives and abides forever.

We cannot "un-child" ourselves from being God's child nor would we want to because of Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection
.

( we can become sick in our minds as the person that wants to "un-born" themselves as a human but the real us - the inner man of the heart that is in Christ - that inner man
has his will entwined with God's perfect will because of union with Christ )

This is one of the reasons we need to "renew our mind" to align up with the spiritual truths that are in our new spirit in Christ.

Following God's commandments to us will be a natural result of being in Christ as we grow up in Him.


We are looking at what "we do" when we say that we lose salvation for going to heaven instead of what "Jesus has already done". It is a works-based doctrine that actually denies the work and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with you and in you forever. Now, is Jesus a liar? That's a question to ask ourselves.

Our Father will perfect that which concerns us for it is He that is at work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. I'll trust His love in us to "guide us" through life. Phil. 2:13

There is also discipline of the Lord ( child-training in Greek - not "un-childing" them as children ) This proves that we are legitimate children of God.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Imagine if someone gave me the keys to a car and said go find the car
and drive yourself to safety.

One group say believing in the promise of the keys is the answer, we do nothing
the keys save us, and argue at length you are a fool not to believe in the keys.

The other group grab the keys, find the car and drive off.
This is really this simple, but so many really appear not to care or even understand
the gift of Christ.

Holy Spirit is the power of the engine to take you to your destination.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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The churches that teach this easy believism (not my term) must be pretty full.
It sounds so good. Jesus DID IT ALL. So it sounds like WE don't have to do anything!

If we don't have to do anything,
HOW is the Kingdom of God promoted?
HOW are the people in His Kingdom acting or behaving?
You are insulting good Church going folks around the world - nobody believes "By Grace you are saved," means to sit and do nothing. Your statement sounds like a broken record from the people who want to justify themselves. Foolish nonsense.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I have no need to argue, I prefer that one sees the truth so that they reap the benefits of right belief.


[SUP]15 [/SUP]I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love[SUP][a][/SUP] toward all the saints, and for this reason [SUP]16 [/SUP]I do not cease to give thanks for you as I remember you in my prayers. [SUP]17 [/SUP]I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation as you come to know him,
Ephesians 1:15-17




Unhinged all of osas but they will argue anyhow
 
P

PHart

Guest
Which exact verse are you speaking about? Since I never know with the way you take things out of context. :p
Here.
Let's put what John says alongside what James says:


"4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."
(1 John 3:4-10 NIV)



"
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."
(James 2:12-18 NIV)


See? You can't say in James that this person's workslessness is only a matter of rewards. Because that negates what John said about workslessness in his letter. John said being characterized by workslessness means you are not born again. So you can not argue that James is merely saying the worksless person simply doesn't get any rewards, while John says the worksless person is not born again. You can't have it both ways. You put them in direct contradiction with each other.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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You are insulting good Church going folks around the world - nobody believes "By Grace you are saved," means to sit and do nothing. Your statement sounds like a broken record from the people who want to justify themselves. Foolish nonsense.

And that is one of the reasons to not interact with some because of such behavior. It's useless and a waste of time.

The Holy Spirit takes the things of Christ and what He has done and reveals them to us as our minds become renewed to the truths that are in Christ our Lord's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

We are no more saved by works nor "keep being saved" by works than Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation. Christ alone is the Savior.

He has obtained an eternal redemption for us by His blood. Heb. 9:12

In Him we have redemption through His blood - the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace. Eph. 1:7

It's good to leave the scriptures out there in the thread for new viewers to read them but to continue to interact with some is not wise as it only leads to "back and forth" exchanges that do nothing to teach about Christ and our complete reliance on Him alone which is by grace through faith in Him alone.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
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The churches that teach this easy believism (not my term) must be pretty full.
It sounds so good. Jesus DID IT ALL. So it sounds like WE don't have to do anything!

If we don't have to do anything, HOW is the Kingdom of God promoted?
HOW are the people in His Kingdom acting or behaving?
The phrase you use; "Jesus did it all", is wrong. It comes from a well known worship song called; "Jesus Paid it all, All to Him I owe." Your statements are false; at every turn of the page.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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If you would stop confusing eternal life with eternal death, everything would be crystal clear. The ones who experience the second birth DO NOT experience the second death (eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire). The ones who experience only the first birth, do experience the second death. Because it is "death" in its worst manifestation, it is called "the second death". That is why there is eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the smoke of their torment continues for ever. I trust we can see now why the Gospel is so critical, and why Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
Sorry, not trying to be thickheaded, just really does not compute for me. You said earlier no one is born with eternal life in them but then began your second paragraph by saying we are born with a part that lives forever.

To my mind, I am NOT confusing eternal life with eternal death but am thinking you either live forever or are dead forever.

I just really think we are missing something.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Yes I see that too, they (general sense) want to justify themselves because inherent in this is a focus on self works

which then leads to focusing on others' works (fruit inspectors) because ultimately that is their point of reference.... self and

others..... instead of the finished work of Jesus.

A bit of a vicious circle really:(


You are insulting good Church going folks around the world - nobody believes "By Grace you are saved," means to sit and do nothing. Your statement sounds like a broken record from the people who want to justify themselves. Foolish nonsense.
 
Z
With God well be enjoying eternity, freely moving, talking with others etc.. Apart from him is still an existence but it's confined and torturous.
Sorry, not trying to be thickheaded, just really does not compute for me. You said earlier no one is born with eternal life in them but then began your second paragraph by saying we are born with a part that lives forever.

To my mind, I am NOT confusing eternal life with eternal death but am thinking you either live forever or are dead forever.

I just really think we are missing something.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,047
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Jesus DID IT ALL. So it sounds like WE don't have to do anything!

If we don't have to do anything, HOW is the Kingdom of God promoted?
HOW are the people in His Kingdom acting or behaving?

Kingdoms have rules.
If the rules are not obeyed, persons are thrown into prison.
There is nothing that we can DO to ADD to what Christ has already done. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

With that being said, this doesn't mean that believers are to sit on their butts and do nothing to promote the Kingdom of God. There are consequences for disobedience and God does chasten His children.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I will come back to this because I have work to do.:(

Although that will be my last effort and then I am moving on...LOL

I just reminded myself of this you tube clip where a little girl is having a bit of a temper tantrum.


[video=youtube;LbDW3lHamxc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbDW3lHamxc[/video]



Here.
Let's put what John says alongside what James says:


"4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."
(1 John 3:4-10 NIV)



"
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."
(James 2:12-18 NIV)


See? You can't say in James that this person's workslessness is only a matter of rewards. Because that negates what John said about workslessness in his letter. John said being characterized by workslessness means you are not born again. So you can not argue that James is merely saying the worksless person simply doesn't get any rewards, while John says the worksless person is not born again. You can't have it both ways. You put them in direct contradiction with each other.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
All the promises are conditioned on believing and continuing to believe. You're ignoring the condition for the sure and unmovable and eternal promises of God.

Did you notice that there has to be a difference between 'disown' and 'faithless' in 2 Timothy 2:12-13? 'Disowning' has one outcome, and being 'faithless' has another. So we know that they have to be two different and distinct things that have two different and distinct outcomes:


"If we disown him,he will also disown us;13if we are faithless,he remains faithful,for he cannot disown himself."



If you disown Christ, you get disowned by Christ (unsealed). But being faithless in your bad hair day in Christ, all the while clinging to the blood of Christ for forgiveness, won't cause Christ to disown you. He can't because you still believe in Him. Your continuing belief, despite your failures, makes you a part of Him such that He can not disown Himself. But your unbelief will indeed cause Him to disown you. You are no longer a part of Him that He should have some kind of obligation to keep you.
2Ti 2:12 If G1487  we suffer, G5278  we shall also G2532  reign with G4821him: if G1487  we deny G720him, he also G2548  will deny G720  us: G2248

deny:

[h=1]G720[/h]ἀρνέομαι
arneomai
ar-neh'-om-ahee
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the middle of G4483; to contradict, that is, disavow, reject, abnegate: - deny, refuse.


[h=1]G4483[/h]ῥέω
rheō
hreh'-o
For certain tenses of which a prolonged form (ἐρέω ereō) is used; and both as alternate for G2036; perhaps akin (or identical) with G4482 (through the idea of pouring forth); to utter, that is, speak or say: - command, make, say, speak (of). Compare G3004.
Total KJV occurrences: 26

before this is this:

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful G4103  saying: G3056  For G1063  if G1487  we be dead with G4880him, we shall also G2532  live with G4800him:

Those who have become the good ground prepared in the parable of the sower is those who are crucified with Christ. The act of circumcision of heart is performed by Holy Spirit, the good seed is planted, and watered by the Word. Begins growth and faith in the Word of God.



Those who would deny are rejecting the gospel. The only means of eternal life, and will be denied at judgement.

you cannot apply that to the body of Christ. There are many scriptures declaring our position of being placed in Him. In means a fixed position.

It pays to study and compare scripture with scriptures of the same meanings.