Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
I get what you are saying.

What I am trying to get or understand is "Were those under the Mosaic law saved?
I am not talking NC here and salvation and eternal life through Jesus.

Was the atonement for sin sufficient to save them and be with Jesus for eternity?
Abrahams bosom is where they went. Hell is or was, not sure, two compartments.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,297
26,334
113
I know it's hard to comprehend what I'm saying to you but hopefully one day you will look back on this, I know I've been there done that before. It isn't only me that sees this, I'm hoping you will to one day. Yes I can get heated and say things I don't mean but please don't do things out of malice or sneaky ways and get people's goats.

I know it's easy to say I'm not sorry but you don't really know how sorry I am. :(

I've said I'll leave it alone but that's is my weakness I never give up on people ever, even the ones who have persecuted me lied about me in front of judges. Or who have raped me at 5 years old, you really don't know the depths I go to forgive people and it's like second nature to me, I can't have it any other way.
Repentance means you stop doing what you have done that is wrong, and take responsibility for it. So far you have not. Please stop responding to me if you wish. We shall see, right?
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
I get what you are saying.

What I am trying to get or understand is "Were those under the Mosaic law saved?
I am not talking NC here and salvation and eternal life through Jesus.

Was the atonement for sin sufficient to save them and be with Jesus for eternity?
What does Acts 13-36 say? David died in his sin....


No, The atonement never forgave sin....many confuse the word atone for remove and the Hebrew does not bear that out...Atone means to cover....the example here is when God made coats of skins for Adam and Eve...it covered them, it did not make them new or as they were before....only the shed blood of Jesus forgives and removes sin....the blood of bulls and goats could not do that, therefore David went to the grave and underwent decay....spiritually and physically...they were saved when he took them from paradise....
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
covenant:

~H1285
[FONT=Arial (Arabic)][FONT=Arial (Arabic)][FONT=Arial (Arabic)]בְּרִית
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]berı̂yth
ber-eeth'
From H1262 (in the sense of cutting (like H1254)); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh): - confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.
Total KJV occurrences: 284

Gen 15:5  And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
 

Gen 15:6  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
 

Gen 15:7  And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. 


Gen 15:8  And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it? 


Gen 15:9  And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
 

Gen 15:10  And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. 


Gen 15:11  And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away. 


Gen 15:12  And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
 

Gen 15:13  And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 


Gen 15:14  And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
 

Gen 15:15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
 

Gen 15:16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. 


Gen 15:17  And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. 


Gen 15:18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 


Gen 15:19  The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 


Gen 15:20  And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 


Gen 15:21  And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. 

Fulfilled for Israel in land. Fulfilled in Spiritual Israel in the new earth, and in heaven.

We are the children of spiritual seed of Abraham through Isaac.

The word covenant refers to this sacrifice.





 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Oh I picked up on her spirit of rebellion against male ministers some time ago....she loves to kid about it and this is why she has free reign here and most likely why she is part of a small fellowship...probably one of those women who feels like she has the "right" teach and Lord over men and comes from a denomination that prohibits it....so instead of letting God use her gracefully, she seeks to control men and force them into her will and lies about what they say...

This is real issue in churches today and we have put women like this out of the fellowship, when they refuse to stop or change...I have seen a few churches split or outright close because of that nonsense...
You are so wrong and entirely out of order. What kind of fruit do you think is of Holy Spirit?
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
Repentance means you stop doing what you have done that is wrong, and take responsibility for it. So far you have not. Please stop responding to me if you wish. We shall see, right?
Yea it's hard to speak the truth but I spoke it and I said I apologize, as My Father looks on, it's your choice to follow suite.
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
My point to people is that David could not partake of spiritual benefits of the new covenant, including salvation....and he was saved by the law....

I have never stated anyone under the law was saved....I said an OT saint like David was not saved under spiritual benefits of the new Covenant....that does not mean or should be assumed that I think they were saved under the law...they were not saved under the law and died before the New Covenant was fulfilled...so what choice does that give us, Bill?

Acts 13.36-39
[SUP]36 [/SUP]For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay; [SUP]37 [/SUP]but He whom God raised did not undergo decay. [SUP]38 [/SUP]Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

David was never freed from the law of Moses and he died in his sin and underwent decay....because...The Old Covenant sacrificial system did not forgive sin, it only covered[atoned] mans sin....The New Covenant and shed blood of Jesus provided for something the Old Covenant could not do through the blood of bulls and goats and that is the forgiveness of sin.....Jesus had to go get David and the other saints from hell....and he did...

Heb 9.11-14

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; [SUP]12 [/SUP]and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, [SUP]14 [/SUP]how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


The basis for the New Covenant is found below...
Jeremiah 31.31-34



[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, [SUP]32 [/SUP]not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. [SUP]33 [/SUP]“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]34 [/SUP]They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
major confusion I started by not spell checking

This....
My point to people is that David could not partake of spiritual benefits of the new covenant, including salvation....and he was saved by the law....
...

Should say this:

My point to people is that David could not partake of spiritual benefits of the new covenant, including salvation....and he was NOT saved by the law....

Apologies for the confusion
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,297
26,334
113
Abrahams bosom is where they went. Hell is or was, not sure, two compartments.
It is described that way in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man :) But hell is actually a translation of at least four different words in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew. Two of them are fairly synonymous, while the third is not really, and one is mentioned only once in the NT:

2 Peter 2:4~
"For God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into
Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment."


 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
You are so wrong and entirely out of order. What kind of fruit do you think is of Holy Spirit?
I have no issues with women teaching, preaching and being used of God even over men...I draw the line when control, manipulation and manufacturing of intentional discord is present...


DO not think for a minute spiritual discernment stops on a chat board....
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,297
26,334
113
Yea it's hard to speak the truth but I spoke it and I said I apologize, as My Father looks on, it's your choice to follow suite.
You did not speak the truth. You completely misrepresented what I said and blamed me for it, said a bunch of nasty things, and now you keep responding after saying you would not.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
Oh I picked up on her spirit of rebellion against male ministers some time ago....she loves to kid about it and this is why she has free reign here and most likely why she is part of a small fellowship...probably one of those women who feels like she has the "right" teach and Lord over men and comes from a denomination that prohibits it....so instead of letting God use her gracefully, she seeks to control men and force them into her will and lies about what they say...

This is real issue in churches today and we have put women like this out of the fellowship, when they refuse to stop or change...I have seen a few churches split or outright close because of that nonsense...
Yea there are many of these types out there, Paul wrote about it as well, though women and men will gather together no matter if the other is wrong or not as long as it's about standing up for their side, folks will group up by gender.

only the strong woman or man will stand for the right. I'm not against a woman being pastors, but I'm against plain obnoxious behavior from people who think they do no wrong against others as far as baiting or twisting or thought projecting, the ones who are not able to humble themselves end up eating slop until they are ready to stop eating it. Megenta hasn't reach that point yet she still thinks she doesn't bait or twist or mind project, sad but it's the truth.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
You did not speak the truth. You completely misrepresented what I said and blamed me for it, said a bunch of nasty things, and now you keep responding after saying you would not.
Like I said Megenta I don't give up that easily.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
190
63
Paul is speaking to you and intone who teaches we are saved originally by the hearing of faith, then must perfect that salvation by works,

he just happ me to speak to people who taught law. What makes them any different from many in the modern day chuch who teach the same, even though they do not use works,


If works of the law given god god will not save you, what makes you think any work at all will keep you saved?


Paul is very specific in his writings than you are willing to see.. he actually states that some are spying on people who are at liberty... they were false brothers.

He happens to speak about people who taught law? No he was being direct and Teaching the New Testament in place of the Old.

The law of Moses was part of bringing the Messiah in to the world to save all that believe. But so many clung and tried to revive the Old husband.. Trying to yoke people to the law of works...

So we are saved and perfect the Salvation by works?

Not Faith perfected by works?


by Faith and works I say by hearing and doing what the Messiah Teaches us.. Faith that worketh love.

We are to believe GOD.

Believe His Testimony.

So here is an example

a man who does not believe GOD and does not have Faith in the Messiah gives clothes to the poor.

A man who believes GOD and Has Faith in the Messiah gives clothes to the poor as taught.

Only one is Justified the other condemned... and the work was not justification... no it is Faith that justifies us with GOD and the work perfects the Faith.


Loved and set free to be at liberty under Grace to Love GOD and our neighbour... how? We believe GOD through His Son.

Power of the cross is GOD.













 
Last edited:
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
covenant:

~H1285
[FONT=Arial (Arabic)][FONT=Arial (Arabic)][FONT=Arial (Arabic)]בְּרִית
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]berı̂yth
ber-eeth'
From H1262 (in the sense of cutting (like H1254)); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh): - confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.
Total KJV occurrences: 284

Gen 15:5  And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
 

Gen 15:6  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
 

Gen 15:7  And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. 


Gen 15:8  And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it? 


Gen 15:9  And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
 

Gen 15:10  And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. 


Gen 15:11  And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away. 


Gen 15:12  And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
 

Gen 15:13  And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 


Gen 15:14  And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
 

Gen 15:15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
 

Gen 15:16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. 


Gen 15:17  And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. 


Gen 15:18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 


Gen 15:19  The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 


Gen 15:20  And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 


Gen 15:21  And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. 

Fulfilled for Israel in land. Fulfilled in Spiritual Israel in the new earth, and in heaven.

We are the children of spiritual seed of Abraham through Isaac.

The word covenant refers to this sacrifice.





The Abrahamic Covenant was made long before Isaac was offered on the wood pile....and no the Land Covenant is far from being fulfilled and will not be until the Kingdom age and ties together with the Davidic Covenant
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
Repentance means you stop doing what you have done that is wrong, and take responsibility for it. So far you have not. Please stop responding to me if you wish. We shall see, right?
Do you ever take any kind of responsibility or accountability for your own issues you stir up?
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Indeed for those who know how to be humble and honest for the others there's a different approach.