No you have not - actually it was about PeterJen's ciicking like on your post regarding the crazy now banned guy who was insulting veterans. Its possible that I misunderstood Mr. Jens but it seemed he was agreeing that Veterans commit fraud, including myself. I have always appreciated your posts and kindheartedness and love your country Scotland.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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The concept about belief is actually where the lie is being spoken.
The real difference is not in belief but in sinning while a believer.
For those who say it does not matter, it has all be wiped away, they are claiming to believe
otherwise is an insult to the cross.
On our side we say to continue in sin is to say the cross has not brought victory and sin
does not matter and is a denial of faith and the Kingdom.
But to admit they hold to continuing in sin is too blunt an admission because so much scripture
condemns such a phrase, so it is put in other ways.
And if you have no problem with sin, defining more and more refined ways of failure just reinforces
the idea it is the right approximation rather than going deeper into delusion.
To make everything sinful is as bad as making everything ok, but has the same effect, removes sin
from the discussion. Once you admit Jesus walked without sin, and we can walk in love empowered
by the Holy Spirit like Him, you start to get the idea of how hard and difficult it is to be saved and
walk the narrow path. If you want to simply include everyone, a universal group hug, then ofcourse
you preach peace, and acceptance without any constraints.
This has always been the case.
The real difference is not in belief but in sinning while a believer.
For those who say it does not matter, it has all be wiped away, they are claiming to believe
otherwise is an insult to the cross.
On our side we say to continue in sin is to say the cross has not brought victory and sin
does not matter and is a denial of faith and the Kingdom.
But to admit they hold to continuing in sin is too blunt an admission because so much scripture
condemns such a phrase, so it is put in other ways.
And if you have no problem with sin, defining more and more refined ways of failure just reinforces
the idea it is the right approximation rather than going deeper into delusion.
To make everything sinful is as bad as making everything ok, but has the same effect, removes sin
from the discussion. Once you admit Jesus walked without sin, and we can walk in love empowered
by the Holy Spirit like Him, you start to get the idea of how hard and difficult it is to be saved and
walk the narrow path. If you want to simply include everyone, a universal group hug, then ofcourse
you preach peace, and acceptance without any constraints.
This has always been the case.
My friend, lots of people commit fraud. I was not agreeing with this particular accusation,
just Bills response. God bless you in your struggles, and may you find peace through the
glorious riches He gives us in Him. I have many friends who have suffered under chemo and
it is no joke, but I am grateful to the skill and knowledge of our doctors.
In these times to difficulty, the Lord often draws closer to us, to show us despite difficulty
His love overcomes. I know as a father, when our kids have difficulties we are there for them
so it is great to know our Father feels the same way about us.
just Bills response. God bless you in your struggles, and may you find peace through the
glorious riches He gives us in Him. I have many friends who have suffered under chemo and
it is no joke, but I am grateful to the skill and knowledge of our doctors.
In these times to difficulty, the Lord often draws closer to us, to show us despite difficulty
His love overcomes. I know as a father, when our kids have difficulties we are there for them
so it is great to know our Father feels the same way about us.
I have some agreement with your post here Peter. But, am not sure you are seeing accurately what has been spoken. Or maybe I'm not.
Conversion as I understand it...happens when one is born again. There is an instant change. And a first zeal of the Lord. That is when we can't stop praising Him, and can't stop telling everyone about Jesus. I do believe we all have this in common with being born from above.
But, then comes our walk with Him. And we are tested here on our walk and our faith. The testing is only to perfect our faith, not destroy, because the end result of testing is to see the faithfulness of God in our life. We are learning how to walk just as toddlers...and toddlers do fall from time to time.
Sins can be from old habits...the old man. Then the testing of idols in the heart come. Which god is God. That which we depend on for our provision. So again...the learning to walk process. And we also are learning about our division of humanity, spirit, soul, body.
And we learn that we are no longer flesh, but Spirit. And we are no longer of sin...not sins...sin. Sin being our very human nature. Temptations do not go away...but they do have less hold on us, until so weak they don't even tempt anymore.
And here is where religion becomes so destructive to the body of Christ. For religion will throw away those who are tempted rather than being as Paul...removing until restoration.
I can name you names where this has happened...and still there are those who hold on to what was done in the past.
So, now our identity....we do not identify with sin as we are growing in the Lord...this being the process of understanding what Jesus has given us freely. He put us to death with Him on His Cross...symbol of the serpent in the wilderness or the serpents work in man...crucified...and then raised in His righteousness of eternal life.
We identify with Him by our fixed position "in Him". We are the righteousness of God in His Son, Christ the anointed Messiah, Yeshua / Jesus. For it was the Fathers plan from before the world to do this.
Am pretty sure this is what Decon and EG believe. But, they know that even at our best...our very being in Christ will never be as the Head...we are members of His body.
Holiness then becomes the desire of our heart...as we live and move and our being in Him. It's a growth thing...just as a babe naturally...so it's spiritually.
But the full grown "father" is where we can then instruct others.
Do you agree with this? I gave you the process of out of the scriptures.
Where I have a problem with your posts...is you speak out of your thoughts. And it's hard to pick out the truth this way.
But, this last post of yours...I think I can.
Conversion as I understand it...happens when one is born again. There is an instant change. And a first zeal of the Lord. That is when we can't stop praising Him, and can't stop telling everyone about Jesus. I do believe we all have this in common with being born from above.
But, then comes our walk with Him. And we are tested here on our walk and our faith. The testing is only to perfect our faith, not destroy, because the end result of testing is to see the faithfulness of God in our life. We are learning how to walk just as toddlers...and toddlers do fall from time to time.
Sins can be from old habits...the old man. Then the testing of idols in the heart come. Which god is God. That which we depend on for our provision. So again...the learning to walk process. And we also are learning about our division of humanity, spirit, soul, body.
And we learn that we are no longer flesh, but Spirit. And we are no longer of sin...not sins...sin. Sin being our very human nature. Temptations do not go away...but they do have less hold on us, until so weak they don't even tempt anymore.
And here is where religion becomes so destructive to the body of Christ. For religion will throw away those who are tempted rather than being as Paul...removing until restoration.
I can name you names where this has happened...and still there are those who hold on to what was done in the past.
So, now our identity....we do not identify with sin as we are growing in the Lord...this being the process of understanding what Jesus has given us freely. He put us to death with Him on His Cross...symbol of the serpent in the wilderness or the serpents work in man...crucified...and then raised in His righteousness of eternal life.
We identify with Him by our fixed position "in Him". We are the righteousness of God in His Son, Christ the anointed Messiah, Yeshua / Jesus. For it was the Fathers plan from before the world to do this.
Am pretty sure this is what Decon and EG believe. But, they know that even at our best...our very being in Christ will never be as the Head...we are members of His body.
Holiness then becomes the desire of our heart...as we live and move and our being in Him. It's a growth thing...just as a babe naturally...so it's spiritually.
But the full grown "father" is where we can then instruct others.
Do you agree with this? I gave you the process of out of the scriptures.
Where I have a problem with your posts...is you speak out of your thoughts. And it's hard to pick out the truth this way.
But, this last post of yours...I think I can.
P
No, PHart does not believe works have power to justify, lol.
PHart believes what you do (I think) that saved people do works, their works testifying to the justification they have received completely and utterly apart from their works. And so it is only in that way that works go with salvation.
...stay in the ark, lol.
Of course you're going to argue that it was not possible for Noah and his family to exit the ark. We don't know that. But consider that when keeping the Passover, another illustration of God's salvation and deliverance, it was commanded that those inside the house seeking refuge from the destroying angel must stay in the house.
So, once again, your 'trusting and obeying Him' is not you keeping yourself saved, but mine is.
There is only despair and fearful thoughts for the one who's 'faith' does not produce in them the fruit of the Spirit. John explains that it is the one who does not act like Jesus in this life that has fear, not those who's faith manifests itself in Christ-like living:
So fear has nothing to do with the gospel not being OSAS. Fear has to do with your faith not resulting in a Christ-like life. So, any un-Christ like, defeated person who professes faith in Christ shouldn't be seeking the false assurance of a OSAS doctrine to ease their fears, but rather they should do what the Bible says and have a faith that produces the fruit of that faith. Then they will live in the assurance of knowing they are genuinely saved by the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works and will be welcomed with open arms into the kingdom at the end of this age.
Trying to gain assurance through a OSAS doctrine is misleading and deceitful. The Bible tells us we have the assurance of salvation when our faith finds expression in what we do. That is the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works--the faith that manifests itself in love:
If a person's faith is not manifesting in godly love then you either 1) don't have the Spirit of God in you, 2) you lost the Spirit of God through a willful unbelief and return to your old life, or 3) you have yet to mature into the perfection of love (see the 1 John 4 passage above). It's up to us individually to find out which one applies and do the believing necessary to fix it so we can be saved, not destroyed on the Day of Wrath to come. Fruitlessness on the Day of Wrath means you do not possess the Spirit in a born again, 'justification by faith apart from works', salvation. Fix that now while you can.
PHart believes what you do (I think) that saved people do works, their works testifying to the justification they have received completely and utterly apart from their works. And so it is only in that way that works go with salvation.
...stay in the ark, lol.
Of course you're going to argue that it was not possible for Noah and his family to exit the ark. We don't know that. But consider that when keeping the Passover, another illustration of God's salvation and deliverance, it was commanded that those inside the house seeking refuge from the destroying angel must stay in the house.
“Go and take for yourselves lambs according to your families, and slay the Passover lamb. 22“You shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning." (Exodus 12:21-22 NASB)
So, once again, your 'trusting and obeying Him' is not you keeping yourself saved, but mine is.
There is only despair and fearful thoughts for the one who's 'faith' does not produce in them the fruit of the Spirit. John explains that it is the one who does not act like Jesus in this life that has fear, not those who's faith manifests itself in Christ-like living:
"the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." (1 John 4:16-18 NASB)
So fear has nothing to do with the gospel not being OSAS. Fear has to do with your faith not resulting in a Christ-like life. So, any un-Christ like, defeated person who professes faith in Christ shouldn't be seeking the false assurance of a OSAS doctrine to ease their fears, but rather they should do what the Bible says and have a faith that produces the fruit of that faith. Then they will live in the assurance of knowing they are genuinely saved by the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works and will be welcomed with open arms into the kingdom at the end of this age.
Trying to gain assurance through a OSAS doctrine is misleading and deceitful. The Bible tells us we have the assurance of salvation when our faith finds expression in what we do. That is the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works--the faith that manifests itself in love:
"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (towards justification--see context), but faith (only) working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)
If a person's faith is not manifesting in godly love then you either 1) don't have the Spirit of God in you, 2) you lost the Spirit of God through a willful unbelief and return to your old life, or 3) you have yet to mature into the perfection of love (see the 1 John 4 passage above). It's up to us individually to find out which one applies and do the believing necessary to fix it so we can be saved, not destroyed on the Day of Wrath to come. Fruitlessness on the Day of Wrath means you do not possess the Spirit in a born again, 'justification by faith apart from works', salvation. Fix that now while you can.
I think you two are having a misunderstanding of each other, in what you mean by what you say, perhaps because of terminology definition differences. Let me play the peace maker, and I will use simple terms to do it.
We are saved by GRACE, through Faith, and even that Faith is not of ourselves, it all is a GIFT of GOD, Eph.2:4-9.
Even the abilitiy to LOVE GOD is part of that GIFT, as it was poured into our heart by the Holy Spirit who was given to us, Rom. 5:5. ALL ARE A PART OF HAVING BEEN SAVED, PAST TENSE.
We are NOT those who have only tasted the Heavenly Gift, but rather we are those who have Consumed it, and take His Word into our hearts.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Those who do that were not true Christians, even though they sat in pews, because they had the wrong kind of SOIL in their hearts in the first place, Mat. 13:3-9. THEY FAILED TO CONSUME THE HEAVENLY GIFT AND HIS WORD, AN EMPOWERMENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
The Holy Spirit is the Sower, that scatters the Seed of FAITH AND LOVE. WHEN THAT SEED FINDS FERTILE SOIL IN THE HEART, IT WILL BE WATERED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH THE WORD OF GOD (LIVING WATER). Therefore if that Salvation born of the Seed of Faith and GOD's LOVE, happened for REAL; it WILL produce an ongoing crop of LOVING OBEDIENCE in our lives, John 14:15. NOT BECAUSE OF WHAT WE HAVE DONE, but because of what Jesus and the Holy Spirit are doing in the Fertile Soil of our hearts.
THEREFORE, this is WHO GETS ALL THE CREDIT:
Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
CAN BOTH OF YOU, PH and DC, agree totally with the above post?
See we do not get to pat ourselves on the back for any part of our Salvation and Justification.
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Hi TruthTalk,
Thank you for your kind words.
I don't think PJ was focusing on you.
I think the fact that he liked my post was because he saw I called this guy out.
I think PJ was just saying that those who do commit fraud will be found out in the end.
So I don't think he meant you any ill will.
Dont let the prat who got banned and what he said to you get to you.
Its not worth the breath and the emotions on people who have no desire to discuss but would rather bring discord and vile rhetoric.
One day all will stand before God and every word spoken and thought and action will be laid bare before God.
Leave the affore mentioned banned in the hands of God, he will exact his personal 100% perfect justice.
I have said this to others on here and I will say this you.
Thank you for serving your country.
I always get very emotional and stand in awe and thank God for you and others who served their country.
Willing to put their lives on the line to bring freedom and come against evil.
Over here when it gets towards Nov 11 where we buy poppies in rememberance it's not unusual to see Vets selling them on the streets.
Everyone I have ever seen I have bought one from them, I thank them and I raise my hand, stand tall and I salute them.
I have seen many cry when I do that.
Thank you TT and every other person who has who has served in whatever capacity.
I salute you and thank you.
TT, may our Father bless you.
Jesus we thank you for TT, thank you that he has stood firm in what he knows is right in you.
Thank you that he was willing to die for what he knows is right, to bring freedom from the tyranny of evil so people will be free.
Even people like the guy who has been banned.
Thank you that given his condition of health he is still serving you.
Thank you for the inspiration he brings to all of us.
And we thank you that on the day when you say "Time to stand down soldier and come home" that he will be with you forever and we will see him one day.
I hope I can stand before him and salute him.
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nhGuhfBk5xk[/video]
Thank you for your kind words.
I don't think PJ was focusing on you.
I think the fact that he liked my post was because he saw I called this guy out.
I think PJ was just saying that those who do commit fraud will be found out in the end.
So I don't think he meant you any ill will.
Dont let the prat who got banned and what he said to you get to you.
Its not worth the breath and the emotions on people who have no desire to discuss but would rather bring discord and vile rhetoric.
One day all will stand before God and every word spoken and thought and action will be laid bare before God.
Leave the affore mentioned banned in the hands of God, he will exact his personal 100% perfect justice.
I have said this to others on here and I will say this you.
Thank you for serving your country.
I always get very emotional and stand in awe and thank God for you and others who served their country.
Willing to put their lives on the line to bring freedom and come against evil.
Over here when it gets towards Nov 11 where we buy poppies in rememberance it's not unusual to see Vets selling them on the streets.
Everyone I have ever seen I have bought one from them, I thank them and I raise my hand, stand tall and I salute them.
I have seen many cry when I do that.
Thank you TT and every other person who has who has served in whatever capacity.
I salute you and thank you.
TT, may our Father bless you.
Jesus we thank you for TT, thank you that he has stood firm in what he knows is right in you.
Thank you that he was willing to die for what he knows is right, to bring freedom from the tyranny of evil so people will be free.
Even people like the guy who has been banned.
Thank you that given his condition of health he is still serving you.
Thank you for the inspiration he brings to all of us.
And we thank you that on the day when you say "Time to stand down soldier and come home" that he will be with you forever and we will see him one day.
I hope I can stand before him and salute him.
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nhGuhfBk5xk[/video]
U
After reading your comment I found this on the internet. Ultimately no human can undo what God has done
“Noah, do you believe that once in the Ark, always in the Ark?”
“Well, I hadn’t really thought about it. God invited me in here and I suppose He will keep me in so long as He wants me in here.”
“What about losing your salvation in the Ark. Is that possible?”
“Well, I don’t really see how that could happen. God shut the door behind me.”
“Yes, but isn’t it possible that you might fall out of the Ark? What happens if you decide to jump out of the Ark, isn’t that possible?”
(By now I think Noah might really have a puzzled look on his face), “Well, like I said, God shut the door behind me, I don’t see how I could fall out and I’m certainly not going to jump out of here!”
“OK, but what if you mess up, what if you disobey God? What happens if you really commit a lot of sin, how about then? Won’t God kick you out of the Ark?”
“No, God told me to come into the Ark. I did what He told me to do, I plan to keep doing what He told me to do because I am grateful for what He has done for me. I guess if I ‘mess up’ then I will confess it to Him and repent and ask for forgiveness.”
“Yeah, OK, but what about the door? Is it really locked tightly behind you? What if someone comes up and breaks it down or picks the lock, huh? What will happen then? Isn’t it possible that you yourself might backslide and decide to kick it down and jump out yourself?”
“Look, I don’t know about all of these questions you are asking me. All I know is that God Himself told me to build this Ark, He told me that He was going to save me from judgment, He invited me to come inside, and then He sealed the door behind me. It has been His actions that have brought me to the place of security where I am now and I am trusting Him to keep me there!”
https://answersfromthebook.org/2017/08/01/christ-our-ark-security/
“Noah, do you believe that once in the Ark, always in the Ark?”
“Well, I hadn’t really thought about it. God invited me in here and I suppose He will keep me in so long as He wants me in here.”
“What about losing your salvation in the Ark. Is that possible?”
“Well, I don’t really see how that could happen. God shut the door behind me.”
“Yes, but isn’t it possible that you might fall out of the Ark? What happens if you decide to jump out of the Ark, isn’t that possible?”
(By now I think Noah might really have a puzzled look on his face), “Well, like I said, God shut the door behind me, I don’t see how I could fall out and I’m certainly not going to jump out of here!”
“OK, but what if you mess up, what if you disobey God? What happens if you really commit a lot of sin, how about then? Won’t God kick you out of the Ark?”
“No, God told me to come into the Ark. I did what He told me to do, I plan to keep doing what He told me to do because I am grateful for what He has done for me. I guess if I ‘mess up’ then I will confess it to Him and repent and ask for forgiveness.”
“Yeah, OK, but what about the door? Is it really locked tightly behind you? What if someone comes up and breaks it down or picks the lock, huh? What will happen then? Isn’t it possible that you yourself might backslide and decide to kick it down and jump out yourself?”
“Look, I don’t know about all of these questions you are asking me. All I know is that God Himself told me to build this Ark, He told me that He was going to save me from judgment, He invited me to come inside, and then He sealed the door behind me. It has been His actions that have brought me to the place of security where I am now and I am trusting Him to keep me there!”
https://answersfromthebook.org/2017/08/01/christ-our-ark-security/
No argument here and I agree stay in the Ark, jumping from the Ark (our salvation), would be like jumping out of a perfectly good airplane, foolish mistake with dreadful consequences.....
Listen Phart, do not address me anymore....the difference between you and I has been well established...You believe you can LOSE or FORFEIT salvation which is a lie from pit....I do not believe that salvation can be lost or forfeit....I believe JESUS begins, finishes and completes the work of faith in me, You believe that YOU KEEP yourself in the faith that is the difference....maybe your are to dense to realize that or acknowledge that or you just like to play word games.....end of story....