Not By Works

[JIMBO43]

Now the fruits of the people born of the first fruits ie asking the holy spirit to be with you and guiding You... Boom hey presto your first fruits are Born.... You have been stemed like a bee stems a flower....

Now the signs of the fruits from the first fruits... one of the signs is patience... yes you suddenly become a patient chappie.... waiting for patiently for the day of salvation as written in Black and white in our bible......or on the other hand you could say sod you i dont need to wait for what i allready know i will get or have.... naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa warning !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats what satan said,,,,,,,,,,,was SOD YOU which is the lauguage of the sodamites.......... and we all know what happened to little sods at soddom and gorrmora... Yup Sods.....

And mean old Sods... there really passed the point of no return but i managed to pull one back the other day...

Igave him the look of a stern poker face to tell him that i would not back down and you will see your mean attitude and hey presto i won,,, and he apolagised but it took some doing but thank God hes got rid of mr mean old sod .. proper steptoe lol or at least he was..

 

[JIMBO43]

my personal thoughts or my communion ? coz i dunno where this info is coming from..

anyhows The thief on the cross gave hope to milllions of Sinners that you can be saved befor the end.. Now was it because thiefs can be lovable and God saw a loveble spirit in him ?..

Now because the thief repented on the cross does that mean it was the only time he repented ?....

I dont think so and maybe he was in a state of shock and like anybody crucified would beg for mercy...

So i dont think you can use the thief on the cross to say that you can recieve salvation at anyone time befor you die... However you could be bornagain. only didnt all the people who died befor the days of the spirit being given,,,, get set free or at least the ones deserving ? maybe some are still there ?.

Anyways if you can recieve salvation befor the day of Judgement then surely you can lose it which doesnt give much hope for sinners or believers who fall short..?...


So i say you cant lose salvation because it hasnt been dished out to anyone yet,, so there for we can hope that we will never lose it and believe that we can win the daily battle and serve our heavenly father each day and look after the needy...with a glad heart knowing that is pleasing to God...

So if i want to please God by doing a Good work is that just a token of my appreciation for being born again and in communion ?

 

[BillG]

my personal thoughts or my communion ? coz i dunno where this info is coming from..

???? Jimbo got no idea what you are saying

 

[BillG]

my personal thoughts or my communion ? coz i dunno where this info is coming from..

anyhows The thief on the cross gave hope to milllions of Sinners that you can be saved befor the end.. Now was it because thiefs can be lovable and God saw a loveble spirit in him ?..

Now because the thief repented on the cross does that mean it was the only time he repented ?....

What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross.

Luke 23:43


And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

So I don't think you can use the thief on the cross to say that you can receive salvation at anyone time before you die

The thief on the cross hadn't died yet but look at the promise of Jesus.

I don't think so and maybe he was in a state of shock and like anybody crucified would beg for mercy..

Yes they would, but who did the thief look to for mercy? Not those crucifying him, he looks to Jesus.

Luke 23:40-42


But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

then back to v43 above. The thief ain't dead yet and neither is Jesus but Jesus assured him he will be with him. Therefore the thiefs salvation has been dished out.

 

[JIMBO43]

What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross.

Luke 23:43


And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”



The thief on the cross hadn't died yet but look at the promise of Jesus.



Yes they would, but who did the thief look to for mercy? Not those crucifying him, he looks to Jesus.

Luke 23:40-42


But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

then back to v43 above. The thief ain't dead yet and neither is Jesus but Jesus assured him he will be with him. Therefore the thiefs salvation has been dished out.

Yes like i said Jesus saw a lovable spirit in him as there where lovable spirits in the old testement that also Got set free befor Jesus..

My Frined Jesus obviously knew his heart like he knows yours and mine............. why wouldny Jesus say that to him Jesus could have examined his whole life in a blink of an eye and not just what he was on the cross for...

 

[BillG]

Anyways if you can recieve salvation befor the day of Judgement then surely you can lose it which doesnt give much hope for sinners or believers who fall short..?...


So i say you cant lose salvation because it hasnt been dished out to anyone yet,, so there for we can hope that we will never lose it and believe that we can win the daily battle and serve our heavenly father each day and look after the needy...with a glad heart knowing that is pleasing to God...

So if i want to please God by doing a Good work is that just a token of my appreciation for being born again and in communion ?

Your first two paragraphs seem to contradict each other.

If you receive salvation before the day of Judgement then you can lose which doesn't give much hope.

Actually it's the opposite, knowing we are saved before we die gives us hope, it's a sure hope for those who have called on his name. It has been dished out before we die.

Now I agree with you that we do good works, not because we hope on judgment day that we receive our salvation but because we are saved.

Jesus taught us a new way to live, help the needy, poor, sick and so on. It is our expression of love to the Father who first loved us.

 

[JIMBO43]

Knowing that your saved is wonderful no denying that... Knowing that your faith is strong is another God tests all of us,,, and why would he have to test us and send trials if we whre perfected... To strenghen us and to see if we pass the test...

I dunno mate it might be a case of ranking as well maybe when your dished out the full measure of faith you get free stripes like the birds in the sky i often wonder why some pigeons have two stripes on there wings is it because they made it in a former life ?...

Anyways whatever the reason theres no escaping that keeping the faith untill the end is a for gone conclusion for some but not all...

 

[JIMBO43]

Jesus taught us a new way to live, help the needy, poor, sick and so on. It is our expression of love to the Father who first loved us.

I wiuld say they are an expression of your fruits And maybe an expression of your self to as why else would men of the old testement be set free when they didnt have the holy spirit

 

[Roughsoul1991]

So we have "warnings" of loss of salvation, we have no one that "lost" salvation, yet I have a promise that He will never leave or forsake me, that my Salvation is sealed, and that I am in His hand, never to be removed. hmmmm, my leap of faith is surely less precarious than yours, but from your stated theology you like tentative rocky ground where God could say never mind at any given time.

You can ignore scripture as to i had posted only a few scripture saying its possible and will happen but i do not know peoples hearts so i would be ignorant to say who is saved and who isnt. But i do know even the scriptures you just mentioned is misunderstood by Calvinism to fit their belief. Do you not realize the later letters written by paul on toward revelations was written as they began to see people lose faith, fall away, and start to be persecuted. This is why the later letters are so different and filled with warnings and encouragement to pesevere.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Does that make you Armenian?

Lets strip making this an Armenian vs Calvinism debate,. And try to actually see what others are saying.. Instead of putting their words through Calvinist/Armenian blinders.

it would be so much easier,. And I believe a lot more peaceful, and understanding of what others are saying.

I never chose to be as i read the Bible unbiased the very first time questioning my whole faith in general. I was led to my beliefs by the bible alone. If that fits me under Armenian so be it.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Unfortunately what this type of a belief system creates is that - "We are our own savior by what we do or don't do."

Christ alone is the Savior and what He has already done. Salvation is then dependent on us and not really on Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

Warnings that living from the flesh ( which comes in many forms and not just the "biggie sins" that religion focuses on ) are needed but where the error is - IMO - is that they assume and interpret these warnings mean that people get kicked out of being in Christ because of the works of the flesh.

If that was the case - no one would be with the Lord because the flesh comes in many forms and all of them bring destruction of some sort in this life.

That although He is joined as one spirit with us 1 Cor. 6:17 - He will leave us and forsake us although He said the complete opposite. Heb. 13:5

Jesus Himself said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. He is not a liar. John 14:16

And Calvinism creates a belief that they are perfect and can live however they want after conversion because nothing they can do even sin can hurt there eternal security. It creates a notion that God is all controlling and your just a puppet having no free will.

Its a theology that takes the relationship out of faith. Just because you have the Spirit doesnt mean the Spirit wont hand you over to Satin for returning to live in the flesh.

I have already proven those scriptures yall twist to be misunderstood by Calvinist. Most the time the context contridicts their belief.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross.

Luke 23:43


And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”



The thief on the cross hadn't died yet but look at the promise of Jesus.



Yes they would, but who did the thief look to for mercy? Not those crucifying him, he looks to Jesus.

Luke 23:40-42


But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

then back to v43 above. The thief ain't dead yet and neither is Jesus but Jesus assured him he will be with him. Therefore the thiefs salvation has been dished out.

Because the very last act the thief did was act in faith. That was him being faithful unto the end

 

[Grace777x70]

And Calvinism creates a belief that they are perfect and can live however they want after conversion because nothing they can do even sin can hurt there eternal security. It creates a notion that God is all controlling and your just a puppet having no free will.

Its a theology that takes the relationship out of faith. Just because you have the Spirit doesnt mean the Spirit wont hand you over to Satin for returning to live in the flesh.

I have already proven those scriptures yall twist to be misunderstood by Calvinist. Most the time the context contridicts their belief.

I know nothing of Calvin Klein and couldn't care less what he thought.

Of course we have a free will. We chose Christ when we heard the message of Him just like Paul said. As I have said many times - true faith is of the heart when we hear the message of Christ - not in our heads. We can have screwed up minds from thinking that we have lost our salvation because of a stupid sin because we have been told that by religion.

I believe in preaching the love and grace of God in Christ because it is the only thing that teaches how to live in this present world. We don't water down the work of Christ because of men's carnal minds thinking we will do whatever we want. We have a new life in Christ.

Is Jesus lying to us when He said that He would never leave us nor forsake us? Is He still lying to us when He said the Holy Spirit will be in us forever? John 14:16

I'm a believer in what Jesus says.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1) the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2) you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

 

[JIMBO43]

Because the very last act the thief did was act in faith. That was him being faithful unto the end

I like this concept I would also add that the thief knew Jesus instantly because Jesus was able to talk to you in spirit > ...

 

[valiant]

I like this concept I would also add that the thief knew Jesus instantly because Jesus was able to talk to you in spirit > ...

The thief knew who Jesus was, and watching Him dying there convinced him of the truth of His claims. He had begun to rail as the other continued doing. But what he saw convinced him. It was then that he begged to be remembered when the Messiah came into His kingly rule.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I know nothing of Calvin Klein and couldn't care less what he thought.

Of course we have a free will. We chose Christ when we heard the message of Him just like Paul said. As I have said many times - true faith is of the heart when we hear the message of Christ - not in our heads. We can have screwed up minds from thinking that we have lost our salvation because of a stupid sin because we have been told that by religion.

I believe in preaching the love and grace of God in Christ because it is the only thing that teaches how to live in this present world. We don't water down the work of Christ because of men's carnal minds thinking we will do whatever we want. We have a new life in Christ.

Is Jesus lying to us when He said that He would never leave us nor forsake us? Is He still lying to us when He said the Holy Spirit will be in us forever? John 14:16

I'm a believer in what Jesus says.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1) the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2) you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

You may say this but many of your beliefs fall into Calvinism.

Of course we have a free will. We chose Christ when we heard the message of Him just like Paul said. As I have said many times - true faith is of the heart when we hear the message of Christ - not in our heads

I agree

We can have screwed up minds from thinking that we have lost our salvation because of a stupid sin

Its not one sin. Its a heart issue. A deliberately sinning issue that becomes the problem in a believer.

We don't water down the work of Christ because of men's carnal minds thinking we will do whatever we want. We have a new life in Christ.

But yet you also say returning to flesh only hurts on earth and not eternal. So you see how this can and has been abused by your teachings.

To completely ignore all of the warnings to believers is completely unbiblical also.

Basically yall wont say its okay to live lukewarm but if you do it only affects rewards and life on earth. But what does scripture say?

Is Jesus lying to us when He said that He would never leave us nor forsake us? Is He still lying to us when He said the Holy Spirit will be in us forever? John 14:16

Very true this is very true for all who remain in faith. Meaning Jesus will never leave you but you yourself can deny him.

And does the Holy Spirit save you? Or grace through faith? Is the Holy Spirit a helper or an enforcer?

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple.

true and yes it is simple we do confess from a true heart and believe and this will save us. This is having faith, and one must remain faithful. If at any time after conversion your heart no longer believe then how can God give grace if the only thing he asks of us is to have faith.

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

You was sealed with a mark, a down payment in a earnest agreement, a small taste of what to hope for.

As i explained before a earnest agreement. I guess ill post this until we understand. ..

The seal is a mark of the Holy Spirit nothing in scripture says that this automatically secures you. In fact the word seal in greek is 4972 spharagizo. This word is from 4973 spharagis "a seal". Basically the same word in greek is used for the seal on the tomb that was broken, the seals in revelations scrolls will be opened and also implying a king's signet ring marking what is his. It's only a promise to the obedient. So to the obedient, it is a promise we can hold onto.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Deposit guarantee in greek is the word arrabon meaning an earnest payment.

Ephesians 1:14King James Version (KJV)

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

An earnest payment is a specific form of security deposit made in some major transactions and when the transaction is settled then the deposit is applied to the buyer's portion of the remaining costs. If the offer is rejected, the earnest money is usually returned, since no binding contract has been entered into.

Indicating the offer can be rejected if the one looking to follow God, does not fulfill his side of the pledge( sufficient proof) highlighted in red below...........

arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Short Definition: an earnest, earnest-money
Definition: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.
HELPS Word-studies
728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).
728 /arrhabṓn ("down-payment pledge") is the regular term in NT times for "earnest-money," i.e. advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given. 728 (arrhabṓn) then represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise).


What is sufficient proof? Probably a believer who remains faithful in obedience to the end. To the faithful we are marked and in our relationship with Christ, we can trust in his promise of our inheritance until the day of redemption once we die in flesh and live in spirit.

 

[Grace777x70]

You may say this but many of your beliefs fall into Calvinism.



I agree



Its not one sin. Its a heart issue. A deliberately sinning issue that becomes the problem in a believer.



But yet you also say returning to flesh only hurts on earth and not eternal. So you see how this can and has been abused by your teachings.

To completely ignore all of the warnings to believers is completely unbiblical also.

Basically yall wont say its okay to live lukewarm but if you do it only affects rewards and life on earth. But what does scripture say?



Very true this is very true for all who remain in faith. Meaning Jesus will never leave you but you yourself can deny him.

And does the Holy Spirit save you? Or grace through faith? Is the Holy Spirit a helper or an enforcer?

true and yes it is simple we do confess from a true heart and believe and this will save us. This is having faith, and one must remain faithful. If at any time after conversion your heart no longer believe then how can God give grace if the only thing he asks of us is to have faith.



You was sealed with a mark, a down payment in a earnest agreement, a small taste of what to hope for.

As i explained before a earnest agreement. I guess ill post this until we understand. ..

The seal is a mark of the Holy Spirit nothing in scripture says that this automatically secures you. In fact the word seal in greek is 4972 spharagizo. This word is from 4973 spharagis "a seal". Basically the same word in greek is used for the seal on the tomb that was broken, the seals in revelations scrolls will be opened and also implying a king's signet ring marking what is his. It's only a promise to the obedient. So to the obedient, it is a promise we can hold onto.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Deposit guarantee in greek is the word arrabon meaning an earnest payment.

Ephesians 1:14King James Version (KJV)

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

An earnest payment is a specific form of security deposit made in some major transactions and when the transaction is settled then the deposit is applied to the buyer's portion of the remaining costs. If the offer is rejected, the earnest money is usually returned, since no binding contract has been entered into.

Indicating the offer can be rejected if the one looking to follow God, does not fulfill his side of the pledge( sufficient proof) highlighted in red below...........

arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Short Definition: an earnest, earnest-money
Definition: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.
HELPS Word-studies
728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).
728 /arrhabṓn ("down-payment pledge") is the regular term in NT times for "earnest-money," i.e. advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given. 728 (arrhabṓn) then represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise).


What is sufficient proof? Probably a believer who remains faithful in obedience to the end. To the faithful we are marked and in our relationship with Christ, we can trust in his promise of our inheritance until the day of redemption once we die in flesh and live in spirit.

We are on the same merry-go-round. This is a total waste of time actually but I will give out more scripture for those readers that don't know about the truth that we are safe in Christ.

You believe it is up to the individual to maintain their own salvation and others believe it is actually Christ Himself and what He has done by His perfect work on the cross and resurrection that has saved us. You are entitled to believe whatever you desire.

Do a Greek verb tense study on Eph. 2:8-9 and see what the "perfect tense" means in Greek and I believe it will help - if not you - it will help others.

Again there are some people that don't believe Jesus is lying to us when He said that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever. John 14:16

Here is what Paul said about those people that were living by the flesh in Corinth. Notice he didn't say that they were unsaved now and lost their salvation. I know this truth of what Christ has done is hard on our natural reasonings and some of our church doctrines that deny the work of Christ but Paul encountered the same things.

I believe that the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He had Paul write 1 Corinthians.

Some of them were going to temple prostitutes for sex, they were taking each other to court, they were in divisions and strife, they were not treating the poor amongst them right...etc.

Paul was saying that those in Corinth were acting like mere men and men of flesh - in other words not being spiritually minded.

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?

Notice that in verse 1 Paul says that they are "babes in Christ".

- not that you are going to hell because you are sinning. Or that because they were sinning - that they are not born of God.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a massive difference between church discipline to protect the people and the Lord sending you to hell as can be seen by the letter Paul said to the 1 Corinthians.

Paul told them who they were in Christ...then corrected their behavior...he didn't say you were all unsaved now or that because they were sinning that they were not born of God like some people try to teach.

( without understanding the new creation in Christ - this "sinning" part will throw people off because they don't understand what is being done by giving in to the flesh and what the new man is Christ really is. )

Some of them were going to temple prostitutes for sex, they were taking each other to court, they were in divisions and strife, they were not treating the poor amongst them right...etc.

Paul told them who they were in Christ...Here are 7 things that Paul confirmed as truth in the believers in Corinth before he went on to correct their behavior.


1) The Corinthians have been sanctified in Christ Jesus,

2) The Corinthians were now saints by calling

3) The Corinthians in everything were enriched in Him,

4) The Corinthians had the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in them,

5) The Corinthians had that God will also confirm them to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

6) The Corinthians had that it was by Gods doing that we are in Christ ( Not our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness and holiness )

7) That because the Corinthians were in Christ - Christ Himself became to them wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption


1 Corinthians 1:1-9 (NASB)

[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,


Preach and teach the grace of Christ as it is the only thing that teaches us how to live godly in this world. Titus 2:11-12. The word of His grace is the only thing that is able to build us up and that gives us the inheritance that is ours in Christ. Acts 20:32

 

[Roughsoul1991]

We are on the same merry-go-round. This is a total waste of time actually but I will give out more scripture for those readers that don't know about the truth that we are safe in Christ.

You believe it is up to the individual to maintain their own salvation and others believe it is actually Christ Himself and what He has done by His perfect work on the cross and resurrection that has saved us. You are entitled to believe whatever you desire.

Do a Greek verb tense study on Eph. 2:8-9 and see what the "perfect tense" means in Greek and I believe it will help - if not you - it will help others.

Again there are some people that don't believe Jesus is lying to us when He said that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever. John 14:16

Here is what Paul said about those people that were living by the flesh in Corinth. Notice he didn't say that they were unsaved now and lost their salvation. I know this truth of what Christ has done is hard on our natural reasonings and some of our church doctrines that deny the work of Christ but Paul encountered the same things.

I believe that the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He had Paul write 1 Corinthians.

Some of them were going to temple prostitutes for sex, they were taking each other to court, they were in divisions and strife, they were not treating the poor amongst them right...etc.

Paul was saying that those in Corinth were acting like mere men and men of flesh - in other words not being spiritually minded.

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?

Notice that in verse 1 Paul says that they are "babes in Christ".

- not that you are going to hell because you are sinning. Or that because they were sinning - that they are not born of God.

As i have explained before do you hold accountable sins of infants for not knowing in maturity the exact way Christ wants us to live? Its the mature who are in far more danger for deliberately doing wrong after knowing its wrong.
Revelation 2:4-7New International Version (NIV)

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

 

[Grace777x70]

When we preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and no one says "What?...are you saying we can just go out and sin because of grace?" - if no one says that to us when we are preaching the grace of God. Then we have not preached the gospel like Paul did.

The very nature of the gospel leads the carnal mind to think that it means we can sin all we want because of grace and this is also what the natural mind that some Christians live by...which is what they hear when they hear the true gospel being preached which is that our sins are forgiven in Christ because of His blood and that grace believers are saying it's ok to sin all you want now because of grace.

The reality is what is being said is the complete opposite of what those listening with their natural minds think is being said.

We don't need to water down the gospel because it might get mis-understood as it takes away the full strength of the completed and awesome work that our Lord Jesus Christ did for all of us.

The answer to shall we sin so that grace may abound is in Romans chapters 6 and 7.

It is the message of the good news of the grace of God in Christ alone that teaches us how to live godly in this present world. Titus 2:11-12.

Does the knowledge that the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin because we are in Christ make us want to go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times no. Jesus said "He who is forgiven much - loves much."

Knowing the real truth of Christ's work of grace and love for us in His great salvation - We run to our Father for everything including anything that hinders His life from being manifested in our lives. We run to the Father knowing we are secure in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection. We run to the Father boldly to find grace and mercy in time of need.

There will be streams of prodigal sons/daughters that have been dis-illusioned because of religious false teachings and false gospels of self-works and works-righteousness that they have been fed from religion coming to the Father for real life as they hear the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work.

Let's make sure they are met at the door by the Father Himself and not the self-righteous judgmental older brother who it turns out - does not really know the Father for who He really is.

The gospel is the only thing that has the power to effect real change in a believer. The good news of Christ Himself is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. Rom. 1:16

I am out of this thread now because I have already said multiple times the same things and a merry-go-round is a useless thing unless we are children. I will leave it in the hands of the Holy Spirit. Let him each have his own faith before God. The Lord bless you all.