Not By Works

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Paul said to 'aim for perfection'-2 Corinthians 13:11. Did you know this? That's the goal. Perfection. Christ's forgiveness fills in where we fall short. H. knows this. But that hardly lessens the command to be perfect and aim for perfection. Too many people are abandoning the goal of perfection and deciding less than perfect is good enough.
Are you talking about "absolute" perfection (sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time) or "relative" perfection in regards to being made complete in maturity? Believers should all strive for maturity in Christ, yet there are those who believe they are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, exactly as Jesus is. Such people are deceived (1 John 1:8-10).
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Are you talking about "absolute" perfection (sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time) or "relative" perfection in regards to being made complete in maturity? Believers should all strive for maturity in Christ, yet there are those who believe they are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, exactly as Jesus is. Such people are deceived (1 John 1:8-10).
Have you asked H. if he thinks he is sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time? Has he said that, or are you just assuming he thinks he is that?

Perfection is responding to any one situation in the right way. That's what we're supposed to do. And when we don't we make our appeal to Christ's sacrifice in heaven to forgive the failure. Then we move on. H. knows this.

Don't look at perfection as a long string of unbroken successes. Look at the goal of perfection as the correct and commanded way to respond to your next temptation to sin. You are being perfect as Jesus commanded us to be when you respond in the right way in the situation you are in right now. You are looking at perfection as 'I always do what's right'.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Have you asked H. if he thinks he is sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time? Has he said that, or are you just assuming he thinks he is that?
I'm not implying that he has personally said that, but there are those who have openly professed to be sinless 100% of the time. I've had discussions with such people on CC and other Bible discussion forums.

Perfection is responding to any one situation in the right way. That's what we're supposed to do. And when we don't we make our appeal to Christ's sacrifice in heaven to forgive the failure. Then we move on. H. knows this.
So absolute perfection or relative perfection? That was the question.

Don't look at perfection as a long string of unbroken successes. Look at the goal of perfection as the correct and commanded way to respond to your next temptation to sin. You are being perfect as Jesus commanded when you respond in the right way in the situation you are in right now. You are looking at perfection as 'I always do what's right'.
Again, there is absolute perfection (sinless 100% of the time) and there is relative perfection (in regards to being complete, mature).

If an NFL football team goes the entire season without a single loss, that's called a "perfect" season, yet that still does not mean there were no errors, penalties, faults etc.. along the way.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
So absolute perfection or relative perfection? That was the question.
I mean relative as in 'relative to this present situation I have to deal with'. Which doesn't seem to be how you mean it.


If an NFL football team goes the entire season without a single loss, that's called a "perfect" season, yet that still does not mean there were no errors, penalties, faults etc.. along the way.
This would be analogous with the legal perfection we have in Christ. We have a perfect record legally speaking despite living fumbling, less than perfect lives in actual practice.

Maturity implies you are responding more often than not, and more and more, in the perfect way of Christ in your daily situations.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Ephesians2:8-10;
saved by grace "Not by Works"

8)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus 'unto good works', which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not a difficult concept to understand; saved "unto good works", "not by your good works." anything less is nothing more than "Cainology", unacceptable sacrifice, wood hay and stubble.
Yes, saved from our Lawless works which killed us. For what? So we can continue in man made doctrines and traditions that transgress God's Commandments and killed us to begin with?

No, saved unto "GOOD works" that God created for us to walk in. Not saved so we can reject His instructions and create our own.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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North Carolina
Anyone who believes they live a sinless life is in a dangerous condition. Anyone who believes they can work their way, maintain until the end, unto heaven has no confidence in the power of God through His Holy Spirit to keep their soul saved.

Once saved, always saved is the Truth. Once saved, then the work opportunity is offered on a daily basis. Following the example Christ set before us on how to live our daily lives shows us how important it is to become a servant for Him.

Salvation then works come from a changed heart. Works are a product of a new creation. Works just for works's sake is a losing proposition.

God looks at our hearts for our motives anytime we do any "work" and He is only pleased with a clean heart and renewed mind from His servants and their deeds.
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
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For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge f the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The Dog Is Turned To His Own Vomit Again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2Peter 2:20-22
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge f the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The Dog Is Turned To His Own Vomit Again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2Peter 2:20-22
Who is Peter addressing here?
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
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Who is Peter addressing here?
It is false prophets and teachers, but, are you gonna tell me that this can't happen to anyone? And what of the holy commandment?

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1John 3:23
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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It is false prophets and teachers, but, are you gonna tell me that this can't happen to anyone? And what of the holy commandment?

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1John 3:23
If you believe it can happen to believers then would it not be better to post scripture they you feel are appropriate?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge f the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The Dog Is Turned To His Own Vomit Again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2Peter 2:20-22
Out of context verses are meaningless, false teacher's also quote out of context.

"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." Matthew27:5
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
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If you believe it can happen to believers then would it not be better to post scripture they you feel are appropriate?
Why do you think Peter wrote this? I would think he was using them as an example to not turn your back on Jesus Christ.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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It is false prophets and teachers, but, are you gonna tell me that this can't happen to anyone? And what of the holy commandment?

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1John 3:23
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, (His called and chosen Disciples)Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

If Jesus saw fit to warn His Disciples about "Christians" deceiving them, I can't imagine why we all should not "Take Heed".

Good post :)
 
Apr 15, 2017
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Who is Peter addressing here?
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

They have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.Who could escape the pollutions of the world,and have the knowledge of Jesus Christ.Can the world do that,can the unsaved do that,which Jesus said be of good cheer I have overcome the world.

They are entangled again,so they were free but got caught up in sin again,and their condition is worse than when they were first free.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

They knew the way of righteousness,but can the world do that,can the unsaved,and they have known it,but they turned from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

How can this apply to the world,and the unsaved.They had the truth at one time,but after a time they went back to enjoying sin,which the Lord knows them that are His having this seal,that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity,and Paul said awake to righteousness,and sin not,but some have not the knowledge of God,and he speaks that to their shame,which not all who say Lord will be able to dwell with Jesus and He said they did not do the will of the Father,but were workers of iniquity.

Which if we hate sin,and do not want sin,by the Spirit we can abstain from sin,so there is no excuse.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

They were clean,in the truth,knew the way of righteousness,had the holy commandment delivered unto them,escaped the pollutions of the world,and had the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,but they went back to enjoying sin,like a sow that was washed clean,but went back to playing in the mud.

How can that apply to the world,and the unsaved,so they would of had to be saved,for them to fall away to uncleanness.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul tells those that stand by faith,in a saved condition,to fear,for if God did not spare the Jews in the Old Testament when they were disobedient then God will not spare those that have been saved if they fall to disobedience,for if you are saved and do not continue in the goodness of God,you will be cut off like those in the Old Testament that were rebellious.

But I know many people believe they cannot fall,which is a wonderful thing to believe,but how do you explain it,and how could it be talking about the world,the unsaved,or those who confessed Christ but are not saved,for none of those people would of abided in truth,and would not have known the way of righteousness,and would of not escaped the pollutions of the world,and could not fall from the goodness of God,for they were never right to start.

Only someone that has been saved can have these traits.

Can a person be truly saved,and then not saved,but be considered not saved all along,but then what does that mean for anybody that has been truly saved,that it could possibly happen to them,and how does it happen,because they went back to enjoying sin,and love money,and material things above people.

But many did not start out right when they confessed Christ,so it is true that not everyone that says Lord will be saved,and the reason that they did not start out right is because they did not come to the truth that they must abstain from sin by the Spirit,and care about the poor,but they thought they were alright with God,which they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,ever learning and never able to come to the truth.

So people can confess Christ and not be saved,for they never accepted the truth,which is to abstain from sin by the Spirit,which is why we repent,which is turn away from sins,not wanting to do them,but these people mentioned in 2 Peter knew the truth,and abided in the truth,but then wanted to enjoy sin,and fell away,which their belief changed and they looked at the Bible from a different perspective,one that did not go against them if they enjoyed sin,and be covetous,and be right with God.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Why do you think Peter wrote this? I would think he was using them as an example to not turn your back on Jesus Christ.
Personally I don't. To me it's addressing false teachers and the doctrines they were probably bringing with them.
Our for gain. Possibly even teaching we can sin all we want.

2 Peter 2:12-14 (NKJV)
Depravity of False Teachers
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.

Of course we know Paul addressed this in Romans 6.

The irony is

2 Peter 2:19 (NKJV)
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.

They promise liberty yet are in fact slaves to sin.

2 Peter 2:20 (NKJV)
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

For me I see IF?

A knowledge of Jesus does not mean one is saved.
Judas knew Jesus, had a knowledge of him yet did he believe in him?

There is a difference between knowing the truth and walking in the truth.
There is a difference between knowing the path and walking on it.

So to me they were not believers in the first place.
And Peter is warning them, of anyone preaches anything different from what we have told you then it's a lie.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV)
Chapter 2
Destructive Doctrines
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

They knew the way of righteousness,but can the world do that,can the unsaved,and they have known it,but they turned from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Yes they knew the way of righteousness but they rejected and used it for personal gain and an excuse to sin.

Can the world know of righteousness, the unsaved yes they can but they can also reject it.

Jesus said

John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.


As a former non-believer how did you become saved and why? You accepted the gift of salvation through faith. You repented of the sin of unbelief, you were given the knowledge of truth and accepted it.

What was the Holy commandment they turned from?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,886
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[QUOTE]So people can confess Christ and not be saved,for they never accepted the truth,which is to abstain from sin by the Spirit,which is why we repent,which is turn away from sins,not wanting to do them,but these people mentioned in 2 Peter knew the truth,and abided in the truth,but then wanted to enjoy sin,and fell away,which their belief changed and they looked at the Bible from a different perspective,one that did not go against them if they enjoyed sin,and be covetous,and be right with God.[/QUOTE]

The embolded above is a load of tosh and very dangerous indeed.

John 6:29


29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”



Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

If you go around telling unsaved people if the want to be saved stop sinning then you are preaching a false gospel.

When people confess genuine faith in Jesus

John 14:15-18
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

We receive the Holy Spirit and it's him working in us, to conform us to the image of Jesus. And yes that also includes not wanting to sin.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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I'm not offended. I want you to know that laughing is the sign that you are defenseless and you know it. Like in school when someone's getting their lights pounded out and they haven't got a defense and they start laughing and mocking the one bloodying their nose in a vain attempt to frustrate and make the one pounding their face in think that it's not hurting.
*deleted* not wanting a ban here. Had forgotten.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge f the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The Dog Is Turned To His Own Vomit Again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2Peter 2:20-22
Having knowledge does not make one saved. Faith is what makes one saved.

A dog who becomes a christian is a new creature, he is no longer a dog. He would not return to his vomit, because he is no longer a dog.

A god returns to his vomit, well, because they are still a dog (unsaved)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
*deleted* not wanting a ban here. Had forgotten.
It is just not worth it with some people. Some just want to cause division, and get us to fall.. The group he was associated with were masters of this.