Not By Works

[Zmouth]

Ok get it.

I was trying to say the same thing.
We as genuine believers even if we get it wrong it's our works that are burned and not us yet we still be in heaven.
Do we agree here?

Did you get from what I said that I thought the person would be burnt that led you to post about the concentration camps?

If so I never meant that

Believers have no substance. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Jude 20


But it is written in 1 Tim 2:4, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The transfiguration has a unique way of adjusting one's perspective.

 

[stonesoffire]

Rom 10:6
　 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will go up to heaven?' (that is, to bring the Messiah down),

~
Rom 10:7
　 or 'Who will go down into the depths?' (that is, to bring the Messiah back from the dead)."

~
Rom 10:8　 But what does it say? "The message is near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart." This is the message about faith that we are proclaiming:
　

Rom 10:9　 If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Sheep



　


　

 

[BillG]

It would seem this debate comes down to how a person defines saving faith.

If you believe saving faith is not any form of personal faith you have been given, but rather a gift of God and therefore your saving faith is not your personal faith but Jesus /God own faith that saves you.

Given this definition I can see how so many people can make their case for OSAS and not covenant relationship.

If you believe saving faith, is your own personal faith and it came to you by hearing the word of God and the gift of God is not faith, but salvation then you may have a differing opinion.

The arguments for or against how personal saving faith is defined could triple this thread. I think if threads like this are started then a person should give their definition of saving faith.

Personally, I cannot define saving faith as God's or Jesus' own faith that saves me.

Why?

I see that as straight up universal/easy believing theology...everyone goes to heaven that "believes" because believing is then all that is needed because the personal faith that comes from hearing the word is not needed only the faith of Jesus.

I also see it as free grace theology that truly invites people to "mentally believe" and then can live like hell.

To me the new covenant was made by God.
It is he who made the covenant with us.

We can't make a coevenant with God. We can only accept the olive branch.

We do have a personal faith but where does it come from, how is it aroused?
Not by our instinct or effort but as a result of the Holy Spirit who can to convict us of the sin of unbelief.
When we respond then it becomes personal.

 

[stonesoffire]

The transfiguration has a unique way of adjusting one's perspective.

Amen...theres much to this statement.

 

[BillG]

Believers have no substance. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Jude 20


But it is written in 1 Tim 2:4, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The transfiguration has a unique way of adjusting one's perspective.

Ok still don't get you and I can't see you that you have actuality repsonded to my post.
The above verses have not really conveyed what you are actually trying to say.

Anyway maybe tomorrow we can chat more.

 

[stonesoffire]

Ariel

You aren't wrong positionally, but sheep like and Sonship has to do with a mindset. Understanding.

That's all I'm going to say here. It stirs anger up and we don't need anymore of this.

 

[stonesoffire]

The old covenant was seen in the sacrifice of Abraham. A picture of the Cross...the doves being split but not separated, fowls trying to eat the flesh...a picture of the enemys work in his life to stop the sacrifice ...Abraham chases them off...watches over it. Then the burning lamp passing between the split sacrifices. Gods way of showing acceptance and is representing the seed of Abraham of faith.

The New Covenant is an inheritance. All of the Son of God has been left to the believer, and we take of our inheritance as we see. When we see Him, we become like Him.

It's all about seeing Jesus...and His work. To the finish.

 

[Meggido]

Wow man, SO how did abraham get saved?

Please tell me your not one of those dual theologians who think the OT was saved by law?

Nope he was saved by faith, the others were saved by their faith, but not under the new covenant.....

 

[BillG]

Ok I know this won't float everyone's boat but it does mine.

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M8AeV8Jbx6M[/video]

Amazing Grace, How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now am found
T'was blind but now I see

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear
And Grace, my fears relieved
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed

Through many dangers, toils and snares
We have already come.
T'was grace that brought us safe thus far
And grace will lead us home,
And grace will lead us home

Amazing grace, Howe Sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost but now am found
T'was blind but now I see

Was blind, but now I see.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope he was saved by faith, the others were saved by their faith, but not under the new covenant.....

Then they were not saved,

Because if the death of Christ did not wash them, they are still in there sin.

 

[Meggido]

When his salvation was paid for. Yes..

He was not saved under the old. No one was.

Romans 3:25

whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

first you say he was saved by faith now its the new covenant...if you are saying it is one and the same thing, you need to read Hebrews....they lived and die under the law , but were saved by their faith, not the law, but were also not partakers of the promise...Heb 11.39-40 clearly says this

 

[FranC]

this is the 3rd or 4th time I have told you this, and it will be the last.

the greek word used in the N.T. for believe is pisteuo, which means to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit , to place confidence in.

there are more detailed at the strong's concordance site.

now, ms Bible expert, do NOT ask any one else to define what it means to believe. this is telling you what it means. except it, or take up the argument with the Bible scholars.

1. I wasn't asking you. I have a reason why I ask Grace.

2. I know what it means and do not need you to explain it to me. Thankfully.

3. The word is ACCEPT, not EXCEPT.

Learn the difference.

 

[Meggido]

Really? You have to explain why God imputed his righteousness in Gen 15 based on the fact he Knew abraham had faith, then decades later, had to have abraham test his faith, Because God did not really know it.

Really, As I said, If you think God did not know abrahams faith, I have serious questions about what you think of God.

You are missing something here not one person can ever explain to you. God certainly knows all, but that word know in GEN 22.12 is not being used in the tense you are trying to fit it in...

I know unsaved people that admit God knows them....and he does, but his he or are they at one with him based on exercising their faith?

 

[BillG]

Who is greater

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cXKvdgGFfAc[/video]

 

[FranC]

Before Jesus...hell was two parts. The bosom of Abraham, and the place for the wicked.

Seen in the parable of Jesus. Those who worshipped YHWH, trusted in blood sacrifice went to the bosom of Abraham.

Abraham's Bossom is not hell.
There was a chasm between...
Luke 16:26

 

[eternally-gratefull]

first you say he was saved by faith now its the new covenant...if you are saying it is one and the same thing, you need to read Hebrews....they lived and die under the law , but were saved by their faith, not the law, but were also not partakers of the promise...Heb 11.39-40 clearly says this

They were ultimately saved by the New Covenant, WHich is really nothing more than the Abraham covenant

Yes they lived and died under the law, Because jesus had not died yet. When jesus said it was finished, their salvation was complete.

If jesus did not die, they would have all died for eternity.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are missing something here not one person can ever explain to you. God certainly knows all, but that word know in GEN 22.12 is not being used in the tense you are trying to fit it in...

I know unsaved people that admit God knows them....and he does, but his he or are they at one with him based on exercising their faith?

So your saying God did not KNOW abraham until he attempted to sacrificed his son.

We are talking about an OMNISCIENT God here,

Abraham had many exercises of faith between the time God declared him righteous, and the time he went to sacrifice his son. What about all of them?


Again, WOuld abraham have spent eternity with God if he died before he had a chance to offer issac.

God knew Abraham, He did not do it for Gods sake, He did and said it for abraham's sake. And for our sake, Look at the growth in Abraham's faith from Gen 15 up until Gen 22. An amazing growth, we woud never have seen if Gen 22 did not happen.

 

[FranC]

Fran, he's not doing anything that's 'convenient' for himself or his response. He's actually being very true to what he believes. He's attempted in earnest to explain genuinely these notions to you in the most constructive, patient way possible.

It's OK.
Grace understands even if you don't.

 

[notuptome]

Abraham's Bossom is not hell.
There was a chasm between...
Luke 16:26

Ain't purgatory either.

Jesus took captivity captive. So it's moved into the presence of Jesus.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ariel82]

They were ultimately saved by the New Covenant, WHich is really nothing more than the Abraham covenant

Yes they lived and died under the law, Because jesus had not died yet. When jesus said it was finished, their salvation was complete.

If jesus did not die, they would have all died for eternity.

And we have this verse....
Matthew 27
52The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many