Not In The World

[posthuman]

as Christ prayed in the garden, what is commonly called His 'high priestly prayer' - He said:

I am no longer in the world;
and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You.
(John 17:11)​

what does this mean?

Here is Jesus, on earth, before He gives Himself over to the Sanhedrin, to be handed over to Rome and to be crucified: and He already says He is "no longer in the world"

how is He not in the world, at this time?

it's far easier to understand when He says this:

I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them,
because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(John 17:14)​

but saying one is "not of the world" is far different from saying one is "not in the world" -- isn't it?
so what does He mean in verse 11?

He goes on to pray,

I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(John 17:15-16)​

so the quality by which He is not in the world ((even as He still walked on earth)), it is not His will that we should share - at least not now. from verse 11, we are "in" the world, and here, it isn't His will for us to be taken out - instead, to be "kept" even while in the world, acknowledging that we are no "of" it.

but He -- obviously not "of" the world and ((very un-obviously?)) also not "in" the world even while He is still walking on earth?
we share the quality by which He is not of the world, but not ((yet)) the quality by which we are not in the world.

what does He mean, He is not in the world?
when did He cease to be in the world? this is long before the ascension
was He ever in the world?
if not, what is He? what is His manifestation in the flesh, a man-shaped hole in the world through which heaven is glimpsed?

 

[Depleted]

Awwwww, come on, man! I was going with you'd tell me the answer.

Nuts! All you did was make me curious too. (And I never noticed that before.)

 

[posthuman]

_____________________

 

[posthuman]

Awwwww, come on, man! I was going with you'd tell me the answer.

Nuts! All you did was make me curious too. (And I never noticed that before.)

sorry! we'll find the answer together
well i at least know the answer to this part:

was He ever in the world?

was He ever in the world? yes -- because He says "I am no longer in the world"

 

[trofimus]

I think its just talking about the near future using the present tense.

I think English have such expressions too... "I am going to the cinema" can also mean you will go there after several hours...

So, in the context, I would say that "I am no longer in the world" = "I will no longer be in the world, in the near future".

 

[posthuman]

I think its just talking about the near future using the present tense.

I think English have such expressions too... "I am going to the cinema" can also mean you will go there after several hours...

So, in the context, I would say that "I am no longer in the world" = "I will no longer be in the world, in the near future".

but He's not saying "I am going to the cinema" - or, 'I am leaving the world'
He says, "I am no longer in the world"

what you're suggesting seems to me to be equivalently someone saying 'I am at the cinema' when they haven't even left for the cinema yet, which no one says, unless they are lying to keep their actual location a secret

 

[trofimus]

but He's not saying "I am going to the cinema" - or, 'I am leaving the world'
He says, "I am no longer in the world"

what you're suggesting seems to me to be equivalently someone saying 'I am at the cinema' when they haven't even left for the cinema yet, which no one says, unless they are lying to keep their actual location a secret

Yes, but Greek is not English So the way how to express the near future can look differently.

"I will remain in the world no longer" - NIV
"I will no longer be in the world" - BSB
"I won't be in the world much longer" - God's word translation

 

[FreeNChrist]

“Enemy-occupied territory – that is what this world is. Christianity is the story of how the rightful King has landed, you might say landed in disguise, and is calling us all to take part in a great campaign of sabotage.”


- C S Lewis

 

[posthuman]

Yes, but Greek is not English So the way how to express the near future can look differently.

"I will remain in the world no longer" - NIV
"I will no longer be in the world" - BSB
"I won't be in the world much longer" - God's word translation

OK, but are these translations of this particular verse literal, or interpretive?
i.e. chosen to be put in English this way because the translating commission understood it this way, not being able to understand it as what the language actually says?

is the Greek in the right tense for those translations to be the accurate ones?
or if not is/was it common to use that kind of structure, to talk about an action that was getting ready to start taking place as though it had already happened?
would a Greek-speaker in those days have said "I'm at the agora" when they planned to leave for the agora the next day?

 

[posthuman]

“Enemy-occupied territory – that is what this world is. Christianity is the story of how the rightful King has landed, you might say landed in disguise, and is calling us all to take part in a great campaign of sabotage.”


- C S Lewis

yes, 'in the world but not of it' -- that's us, re: vv. 15-16

but what is Jesus, not of the world and no longer in it, even while walking on earth in the flesh?
((if that is what is literally being said v. 11))

is being 'in the world' tacitly equivalent to 'in the flesh/on the earth' ?
((and then what does it ​really mean that we are still 'in the world' ?))

 

[Desertsrose]

as Christ prayed in the garden, what is commonly called His 'high priestly prayer' - He said:

I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You.(John 17:11) ​

what does this mean? Here is Jesus, on earth, before He gives Himself over to the Sanhedrin, to be handed over to Rome and to be crucified: and He already says He is "no longer in the world"how is He not in the world, at this time? it's far easier to understand when He says this:

I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.(John 17:14) ​

but saying one is "not of the world" is far different from saying one is "not in the world" -- isn't it? so what does He mean in verse 11? He goes on to pray,

I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.(John 17:15-16)​

so the quality by which He is not in the world ((even as He still walked on earth)), it is not His will that we should share - at least not now. from verse 11, we are "in" the world, and here, it isn't His will for us to be taken out - instead, to be "kept" even while in the world, acknowledging that we are no "of" it. but He -- obviously not "of" the world and ((very un-obviously?)) also not "in" the world even while He is still walking on earth? we share the quality by which He is not of the world, but not ((yet)) the quality by which we are not in the world.what does He mean, He is not in the world? when did He cease to be in the world? this is long before the ascensionwas He ever in the world? if not, what is He? what is His manifestation in the flesh, a man-shaped hole in the world through which heaven is glimpsed?

I considered while reading the passage that since Jesus' discipling is finished, what's left to do is the work of the cross. But it's like He's speaking of it as already happening.

Through this whole prayer He speaks like all has been accomplished including his death burial and resurrection. He's looking forward .......He's not in his present state and praying for his disciples........interceding like the high priest would because that is what He is.

I kind of think of it this way. This is definitely not eloquent or thought out very well, but I'll say it anyway ......... It's like being on a track team as a senior in high school and your last meet is about to happen. You're talking with your friends who are a part of the team.

You might say something like, "well since I'm not in the track and field competition (we would insert 'anymore' here), I'm going to be rooting for you guys from the stands" even though she still has one meet left to participate in.

In my mind I've removed myself the world of track and field as I speak with fellow teammates. I'm going beyond the present world, my present reality and looking toward the future..... no longer considering myself as a part of the track and field world anymore.Jesus is speaking with His father who knows all before anything happens.

And they're not tied to our time....they are beyond our time ......They work outside of time.

 

[FreeNChrist]

yes, 'in the world but not of it' -- that's us, re: vv. 15-16

but what is Jesus, not of the world and no longer in it, even while walking on earth in the flesh?
((if that is what is literally being said v. 11))

is being 'in the world' tacitly equivalent to 'in the flesh/on the earth' ?
((and then what does it ​really mean that we are still 'in the world' ?))

I think the NIV and NLT capture the jest of it.....


John 17:11 (NIV)

"I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one."


John 17:11 (NLT)

"Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are."

 

[Ariel82]

John 17:11 Greek Text Analysis

I believe that text is written in Futuristic present tense.
Main support for this is that Jesus is praying for FUTURE protection for His disciples after he leaves this world and similar unity of purpose that He and the Father have together (this is accomplished by the sending of the Holy Spirit)


Greek Tenses

The Present Tense
A. Narrow-Band Presents
1. Instantaneous (Aorist, Punctiliar) Present
2. Progressive (Descriptive) Present
B. Broad-Band Presents
3. Present of Past Action Still in Progress
4. Iterative Present
5. Lifestyle (Customary, General) Present
6. Gnomic Present
C. Special Uses of the Present Tense
7. Historical (Dramatic) Present
8. Futuristic Present
9. Present Retained in Indirect Discourse

 

[FreeNChrist]

Oh, and "of the world" I believe refers to the world 'system of things'…the philosophy by which the world functions that originates with Satan and that is opposed to the wisdom of God.

 

[posthuman]

I think the NIV and NLT capture the jest of it.....


John 17:11 (NIV)

"I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one."


John 17:11 (NLT)

"Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are."

i understand what is being conveyed by these translations, but are they accurate?

the most easily comprehended understanding may not be the right one. for instance, it is not so difficult to see Jesus as a Buddha-like mortal man who achieved an enlightened understanding and a mastery over supernatural forces that any man with proper discipline could also achieve. it is not so difficult for the human mind to see the some underlying historical progression with a lot of myth and hyperbolic exaggeration added all over it. but these are not true. they are false interpretations of what's actually written - not translations of the record into understanding.

so are the NIV & NLT translating or interpreting the scripture into English here?

 

[FreeNChrist]

i understand what is being conveyed by these translations, but are they accurate?

the most easily comprehended understanding may not be the right one. for instance, it is not so difficult to see Jesus as a Buddha-like mortal man who achieved an enlightened understanding and a mastery over supernatural forces that any man with proper discipline could also achieve. it is not so difficult for the human mind to see the some underlying historical progression with a lot of myth and hyperbolic exaggeration added all over it. but these are not true. they are false interpretations of what's actually written - not translations of the record into understanding.

so are the NIV & NLT translating or interpreting the scripture into English here?

I believe they are giving us the proper understanding of what Jesus was saying.

 

[trofimus]

OK, but are these translations of this particular verse literal, or interpretive?
i.e. chosen to be put in English this way because the translating commission understood it this way, not being able to understand it as what the language actually says?

is the Greek in the right tense for those translations to be the accurate ones?
or if not is/was it common to use that kind of structure, to talk about an action that was getting ready to start taking place as though it had already happened?
would a Greek-speaker in those days have said "I'm at the agora" when they planned to leave for the agora the next day?

Well, we must realize that this is Jesus speaking in Aramaic and John, a fisherman, translating it into Greek. John uses a simple Greek quite often.

Its like me translating something from Czech to English. I also would not choose anything precisely specific for English thinking, but I would use some "normal" kind of tense I can comprehend a little. And I am not a fisherman, I have many years in school, English in the work place etc.
So I would be tolerant for their Greek like you are for mine English

Its a question... should such places be translated literally and then possibly confuse people? Or should it be interpreted with the risk of a wrong interpretation...?

 

[trofimus]

i understand what is being conveyed by these translations, but are they accurate?

the most easily comprehended understanding may not be the right one. for instance, it is not so difficult to see Jesus as a Buddha-like mortal man who achieved an enlightened understanding and a mastery over supernatural forces that any man with proper discipline could also achieve. it is not so difficult for the human mind to see the some underlying historical progression with a lot of myth and hyperbolic exaggeration added all over it. but these are not true. they are false interpretations of what's actually written - not translations of the record into understanding.

so are the NIV & NLT translating or interpreting the scripture into English here?

Interpreting... but I am afraid that the 2000 years old Greek translation of Aramaic thoughts must be interpreted, at least a little, when being translated into 21st century English...

 

[posthuman]

John 17:11 Greek Text Analysis

I believe that text is written in Futuristic present tense.

OK, this is the link you put:

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[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]And[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3765 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ouketi[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὐκέτι[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]no longer[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eimi[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰμὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I am[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIA-1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1722 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]en[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]in[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τῷ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-DMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2889 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kosmō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κόσμῳ,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]world,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DMS[/TD]
[/TR]
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[/TD]
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this puts His language in this saying in present indicative active, which i learn, can be used to indicate future action according to the other link you gave, for Greek tenses, which gives two example texts.

if He said, 'I leave the world' or 'I am leaving the world' -- like the first example in the link, Mark 10:33, where He says "we are going up to Jerusalem" though they hadn't left yet, this would make sense to me. these are talking about an action planned to take place but not yet being actualized as if it were already happening; that's like saying 'i am going to the cinema' when you aren't actually going until tomorrow. you can say it with surety because you do not doubt that it will occur and in your heart, you are fully committed to it.

but when He says, "I am no longer in the world" He is talking about a 'state' not about an 'action'
saying 'I am at the cinema' is fundamentally different than saying 'I am going to the cinema' -- especially if you're not going until tomorrow. in the Mark 10:33 example, it would be as if Jesus says, 'we are in Jerusalem'

the other example of futuristic present tense in that link is John 4:25, which is similarly dissimilar to what Jesus says in John 17:11
the woman at the well says she knows "Messiah is coming" or maybe more literally "Messiah comes" -- she doesn't say 'Messiah is here' or that 'Messiah is' -- and again she talks about an action, not a state: about His coming, not His presence.

am i making too much of this?

 

[Ariel82]

"Am no longer in" this world can be translated into more action words "will be leaving" this world

It's not a state of being...