not under the law Galatians 5.

[eternally-gratefull]

Because under Grace you are freed from sin.

Its Grace that takes you from under the law, rebellious sin puts you under it. Grace is what makes a person cease rebellion to God. So it is Grace through Jesus Christ that makes us free from the condemnation of the law.

You are right the spirit gives life it by the Spirit that we receive this Grace in which we stand.

this makes no sense.

If I am not in sin and obeying the law. I do not need grace, I have earned it.

I am under grace, ONLY because I still sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The problem you have is this. When you state you are not under law if you do not sin, you are stating you are not under law if you perfectly obey the law. Therefore, you are dependant on obedience to the law(being under the law) in order not to be under it.
That, in reality places the individual firmly under the law. And the power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

Victory over sin, is knowing you are3 not under a law of righteousness. People may word their beliefs very well to try and avoid the obvious implications, but nonetheless it is the truth

the problem with people is they do not comprehend the law. If they think they are sinless. They are not looking at Gods interpretation of the law. but their own.

 

[michael56]

the problem with people is they do not comprehend the law. If they think they are sinless. They are not looking at Gods interpretation of the law. but their own.

I have never said anyone who claims to be a Christian is not one, I don't believe that is my call to make. But I cannot comprehend how anyone born again of the Holy Spirit-who has the law written on their mind and placed on their heart God desires them to keep, believing they do not sin-they have ceased from all sin. I don't see that as possible. I can only assume they must be fibbing a wee bit

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have never said anyone who claims to be a Christian is not one, I don't believe that is my call to make. But I cannot comprehend how anyone born again of the Holy Spirit-who has the law written on their mind and placed on their heart God desires them to keep, believing they do not sin-they have ceased from all sin. I don't see that as possible. I can only assume they must be fibbing a wee bit

or self decieved which is even worse. which also is the danger of legalism,

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Interesting, believing on the Lord is all there is huh?

Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
Jas 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

This passage doesn't get quoted much.

Maybe that's because it's hard to understand to the carnal mind and often hinders those called to be saints.......it seems to get confused by the carnal mind as being an instruction to perform certain vain and dead works. Picked from the scriptures by men without Spiritual discernment. In an attempt to place a man under another man's spiritual yoke and keep him from growing in real faith which works by love through the Spirit.

"Jas 2:19"> mental assent is not faith and it is not love it's just> USELESS DEAD FAITH<
<DEAD FAITH< does not<... > connect and activate the fruits of the Spirit that come from true belief > .......v5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.<


"Jas 2:20" >Works done through His Spirit in a truly born-again Christian through faith which works by love.......
will produce these fruits that against such there is no law >love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.>>

He Keeps us from being under the law by these kinds of fruitful works that He does through us....... faith which works by love.

 

[Grandpa]

Because under Grace you are freed from sin.

Its Grace that takes you from under the law, rebellious sin puts you under it. Grace is what makes a person cease rebellion to God. So it is Grace through Jesus Christ that makes us free from the condemnation of the law.

You are right the spirit gives life it by the Spirit that we receive this Grace in which we stand.

No. That's backwards. Its by the Grace of God that we are given the Spirit.

This Grace is fully embodied in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[sparty-g]

"Under the law", not "under the law"... what does Paul mean? Maybe an illustration of "above the law" as opposed to "under the law" would be helpful. I'll preface this by saying an illustration does not prove a point, it simply illustrates one.

Suppose a dignified person is accused of sharing classified information with his mistress. This person ends up accepting a plea deal whereby he will avoid prison for admitting his wrongdoing. Some may respond to the news with questions like, "What, is he above the law? Anyone else would have been thrown in prison!"

What is meant here? Surely, no one is complaining that this man is "above the law" in the sense that he is not obligated to keep the law in the same manner as the rest of us. No one expects he has a golden pass to do whatever he likes or that he is under some different set of laws. The chief complaint is that, when found in transgression of the law, he appears to be not subject to the penalty of the law.

So then, if "above the law" means not subject to the penalty of the law, then what does "under the law" mean? To be "under the law" would then mean to be subject to the penalty of the law. This is what some on this board have tried to explain. When someone puts their faith in the Messiah and not in their own works for salvation, that person is taken from underneath the law, meaning they are no longer subject to the penalty of transgressing it. In that sense, they are "above the law," but that does not imply one has the free right to transgress it. There is no "right to sin" for the believer. The believer is to grow in the knowledge and understanding of what is sin and walk in the Spirit to avoid it.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

No. That's backwards. Its by the Grace of God that we are given the Spirit.

This Grace is fully embodied in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Amen brother Grandpa.......
John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

 

[michael56]

"Under the law", not "under the law"... what does Paul mean? .

Christ is the end of the law, unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom 10:4

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Last week in the "Do we really need another 'Law/Not-Law' thread?' " I said "No, but there'll be five or six new ones by the end of next week."
Well, we're well into next week, and here we go ...

 

[Grandpa]

That book of Galatians gets the legalists every time. No matter how hard they try to twist it, it is very evident that working at the law is not the gospel message.

The gospel message is that once we have come to Christ we are no longer under the law, the schoolmaster. We are under a new teacher. We abide in Christ Himself. Not our works.

All I can do is encourage. I encourage you to stay with the Lord Jesus, who died for the ungodly and sinner. That's me and you. We all know that our work at the law profits us nothing. It's Christs work in us that changes us.

You know what your work at the law is? Vain jangling.

You know what Christs work is? Eternal Life.

 

[sparty-g]

Christ is the end of the law, unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom 10:4

Without any context, I don't know what you are intending to add to my post. Maybe additional input or clarification? I don't see this verse in contradiction to anything I stated. Anythone who thinks they can keep the law to achieve some form of righteousness to bring them to salvation apart from faith in the Messiah is seriously mistaken. Nothing I said was intended to oppose that notion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[h=1]Mark 2:16-18New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [SUP]16 [/SUP]And when the scribes and[SUP][a][/SUP] Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?”
[SUP]17 [/SUP]When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

 

[Grandpa]

Last week in the "Do we really need another 'Law/Not-Law' thread?' " I said "No, but there'll be five or six new ones by the end of next week."
Well, we're well into next week, and here we go ... View attachment 100587

Do you remember when your mind was blinded?

You thought you needed to keep the law to have right standing with God? You probably even did a little twisting to make it seem like you were keeping things that you really weren't...

I know I do, and did.

Wouldn't it have been awesome if someone could have told you that you weren't under the law if you have faith in Christ? Wouldn't it have been awesome if they could explain why?

I'm a little stubborn when it comes to this stuff though, I would have had to find out for myself.

I never get tired of talking about the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Lets start 5 or 6 threads a day...

 

[michael56]

"

So then, if "above the law" means not subject to the penalty of the law, then what does "under the law" mean? To be "under the law" would then mean to be subject to the penalty of the law. This is what some on this board have tried to explain. When someone puts their faith in the Messiah and not in their own works for salvation, that person is taken from underneath the law, meaning they are no longer subject to the penalty of transgressing it. In that sense, they are "above the law," but that does not imply one has the free right to transgress it. There is no "right to sin" for the believer. The believer is to grow in the knowledge and understanding of what is sin and walk in the Spirit to avoid it.

Absolutely. What is the true power of sin? Paul states the power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

The law comes in two parts, the law itself that is to be obeyed, and the penalty attached for breaking it. Is the law itself the power of sin? If it is the power of sin remains in place for the Christian, for the law God desires you to keep remains intact. If however, the power of sin is the penalty attached to the law(you are therefore under the law of righteousness before God) if you break it, Christ died to pay the penalty of your sin, and to remove the true power of sin from your life.

Why does this not give the Christian a license to sin? Because the new covenant consists of two-not one core component. By the law God desires you to keep being transferred from an external law written on tablets of stone, to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts, this means that in your heart you want to obey God. You don't want to commit adultery, you do not want to steal, murder, covet etc. If you in your heart want to obey God, you cannot at the same time wilfully, without conscience seek to disobey him can you, such a thing is not possible

It is an amazing covenant, if you will accept it. God changes the convert into someone who in their heart wants to obey Him, and because that is the case the penalty of sin(which is the true power of sin) is removed from them. However, the law God desires you to keep remains intact on your heart and mind

Therefore, the born again Christian's heartfelt desire to obey can now come to fruition, for what opposes obedience(sin) has been dealt a crushing blow in their lives, for it has lost it's true power over them. Hence Paul states:

For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law(a law of righteousness) but under grace.

 

[just-me]

Hi gotime,

You misunderstand Gal 5.

Scripture is spiritually discerned. 1Cor 2:14.

Those in Gal 5 who are adulterers, drunkards, unclean, etc are the legalists. They are unclean in that they reject Christ's sacrifice and instead pursue righteousness by works of the law. They are spiritual drunkards who are spiritually drunk with the spiritual wine of fornication with the harlot (Rev 17:1,2), Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law (Gal 4:24).

Thus we see Gal 5 those who walk according to the flesh are the legalists.

Now we all know that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rm 3:19.
Legalists are under the law determining righteousness by works of it. Thus we see that its the legalists who sin and are under the law.

Yes the Scripture is Spiritually discerned for sure. Paul's writings also say the law is Spiritual in difference to the flesh. I take that to mean there is no relationship between the truth of God and the persuasion of the flesh. They are opposed one to another.

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." (Romans 7:14)

If we are led by the Spirit we can clearly see the Spiritual applications of these instructions God gave to Israel. This then allows the law to be written on our hearts as promised. God's word must be understood in order for us to have our heart involved with it. After all the just living by this faith is first mentioned in the Old Testament ( Habakkuk 2:4)

Further "Hagar" is an allegory, not an analogy. "Hagar" represents what came first likened unto Ishmael and Isaac, Jacob and Esau, Egypt and the Exodus, Moses and Christ, the Jew and the Gentile, etc. An allegory is a piece of art or literature, like a poem or story, in which people, things or happenings have a hidden or symbolic meaning.

"Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar." (Galatians 4:24)

God has clearly shown us in His word that it is the second that fulfills the first. The second is built upon the first and the second completes the first but doesn't destroy it. The second (through Christ) frees us from bondage, but never annihilates any of what God has ever spoken.

"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" (Romans 2:9-10)

 

[sparty-g]

That book of Galatians gets the legalists every time. No matter how hard they try to twist it, it is very evident that working at the law is not the gospel message.

The gospel message is that once we have come to Christ we are no longer under the law, the schoolmaster. We are under a new teacher. We abide in Christ Himself. Not our works.

All I can do is encourage. I encourage you to stay with the Lord Jesus, who died for the ungodly and sinner. That's me and you. We all know that our work at the law profits us nothing. It's Christs work in us that changes us.

You know what your work at the law is? Vain jangling.

You know what Christs work is? Eternal Life.

Some of us who are called "legalists" (it's in quotes because we don't agree to the definition of legalism presented here nor do we consider ourselves such) agree that we are no longer "under the law." The difference appears to how we understand the term "under the law." Some of us have already shared that we believe it to mean, at least in part, "subject to the penalty of the law," that having been removed in the Messiah and thus, as Michael said, having stripped sin of its power. This is, at least in part, what we consider "grace": God having sent His Son to pay the penalty in our place to reconcile us to God.

As for the "schoolmaster" comment, it is widely debated how to best translate the Greek here. Is it a "tutor" who teaches the child directly? Is it the "house servant" who was placed in charge of the child for care, which included to bring him to the school? There are others, as well. Whether it was a "tutor" whose job was to instruct the child, or a "house servant" whose job was to watch over the child, to restrain him/her from evil and temptation, and to conduct him/her to the school... what kind of student forgets the lessons learned once they have been brought to the goal of the lessons (which in the case of the law is to bring us to the Messiah)?

I agree, we abide in Christ. He is our king, redeemer, savior and shield, not the law as a corpus of commands. Keep looking to Him and see how He lived. That will give someone a sense of what is the Father's will since Christ abided in it.

 

[SeaBass]

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Notice that the one who is led of the Spirit is not under the law.

Now many would be quick to say amen. but what does it mean to be led by the spirit?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

So those who are led/walk in the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

So what then is fulfilling the lust of the flesh?

Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.


Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The works now notice this the "works" of the flesh fulfill the lust of the flesh. these works are sin, so if you are doing these things then you are fulfilling the lust of the flesh and if you fulfill the lust of the flesh you are not walking in the Spirit which means you are under the law.

So clearly those who sin are under the law.



and no you can not do both as it is clearly written:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Sound familiar? Romans 7. so these are contrary to one another you can't have both either one or the other.

A mistake some make is that when Paul said "ye are not under the law" Paul here is talking about the law of Moses, Paul is not say they are not under any law at all. The issue with the Galatians is they had left the NT gospel and returned to the law of Moses thinking they could be justified by the fleshly circumcision under that law. By returning to the law of Moses they had quit obeying the NT law of Christ/truth, (Gal 3:1; Gal 5:7). Paul points out, that to the Christian, being circumcised or uncircumcised means nothing but the thing that matters is having a "faith which worketh by love", (Gal 5:6) The bible defines loving Christ as keeping His commands, (Jn 14:15) so what matters is a faith that worketh to keep Christ's commands/laws.

Gal 5:6 -----circumcision/uncircumcision avails nothing>>>>>>but faith which worketh by love
1 Cor 7:19--circumcision/uncircumcision is nothing>>>>>>>>but keeping the commands of God

"Faith which worketh by love" is equivalent to "keeping the commands of God" therefore the NT Christian is not under the law of Moses but under the law of Christ, they are to obey Christ's NT gospel and not quit as some in Galatia had quit, Gal 3:1; Gal 5:7.

 

[MarcR]

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Notice that the one who is led of the Spirit is not under the law.

Now many would be quick to say amen. but what does it mean to be led by the spirit?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

So those who are led/walk in the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

So what then is fulfilling the lust of the flesh?

Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.


Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The works now notice this the "works" of the flesh fulfill the lust of the flesh. these works are sin, so if you are doing these things then you are fulfilling the lust of the flesh and if you fulfill the lust of the flesh you are not walking in the Spirit which means you are under the law.

So clearly those who sin are under the law.



and no you can not do both as it is clearly written:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Sound familiar? Romans 7. so these are contrary to one another you can't have both either one or the other.

I agree with you; but it must be remembered that the words they which do such things are in the present tense, and speak of durative or habitual action. Believers do stumble into sin; and we have a remedy:

1 Jn 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
KJV

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Last week in the "Do we really need another 'Law/Not-Law' thread?' " I said "No, but there'll be five or six new ones by the end of next week."
Well, we're well into next week, and here we go ... View attachment 100587

lol,....you called it...

Did you have anything else in mind brother?

perhaps some soap box derby highlights......

[video=youtube_share;qOzVZtCti28]http://youtu.be/qOzVZtCti28[/video]
​