Of These two Choices, What do you Believe is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

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valiant

Senior Member
#41
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#41
Paul was referring to the church under the apostles, and therefore full of apostolic truth. He was not talking abut later churches whatever they claim.

that was before the Scripture (NT) was written which was apostolic truth.
 
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1LonelyKnight

Guest
#42
#42
wattie said:
Yeah.. this is where I wonder what the OP is meaning by 'church'

Like you have typed.. it is the ecclessia.. called out assembly/congregation.

Thayer wrote that in all the Greek lexicons and all the writings about church.. ecclessia.. there is NOT ONE occasion where it means a 'universal, invisible' entity.

Another scholar wrote that if 'church' ever loses the idea of assembling, congregating, meeting etc.. then it cannot be called 'church'

And yeah.. I know.. i know.. someone will always say 'but WE are the church'

Show me scripture.. where the church is EVER unassembled and invisible. Because that is what you would be saying by calling every believer.. NOW 'the church'.

It would be a contradiction of the very definition of what 'church' is.. as an assembly and congregation.. local and visible.

Every believer will ONE DAY be in the Heavenly Jerusalem church.. but this is 'yet, future' and it will STILL be 'local and visible'

There is no reference to 'church' in the bible of an entity that is not 'local, visible'

It is either local and visible now.. or will be local and visible even when all believers one day become one church in the Heavenly Jerusalem.

Look at 1 Corinthians 12..

What is this a picture of? None of the language used in this passage are describing a church that is not 'local, visible'

Anyway.. not sure of what you actually believe yourself is 'the church' aside from knowing it is a called out assembly, but this is a bugbear I have.
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2Corinthians 4 ...

2 Cor 4.Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
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...

The chapter continues and closes thusly ...

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The scriptures distinguish between the outward man and the inward, those who appear as whitewashed sepulchre, those who wash the outside of the cup, the wolf in sheep's clothing, those who have power in this world and those who do for eternity. The scriptures distinguish between a temple building and the temple of the holy spirit, between laws written on stones and those on the heart. It distinguishes between Jacob and Esau, between works of the law and the fruit of the spirit.

These concepts and many more like them, taken together as a systematic theology based on hermeneutics including exegesis form the doctrine of visible and invisible church.

The invisible church manifests on the playground, on a park bench, on the bus, in the grocery store - it knows no bounds and is not shackled to a building or preacher or rites and rituals and outward forms of McReligion and Churchianity.
 
M

masmpg

Guest
#43
#43
garee said:
Where two or three are gathered together under His name or authority (the scriptures)Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God our promised teacher,comforter and guide is there. Two is the number He assigned to the church from the beginning. Out of one creature He made two.

Christians I believe walk by the faith of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God not seen . Again not by sight after our own experiences.

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
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I agree, Not only is the Holy Spirit invisible, and we cannot tell when we receive Him, because faith is not a feeling, although sometimes we might experience a feeling when the Holy Spirit impresses us, but this should not be a guide that we have Him or not. There is an invisible church. Not everyone in all denominations are in fact Christians. Quite contrary is the fact that there are whole denominations that teach that obedience is not necessary for salvation, and the only way one can receive the Holy Spirit is by obedience according to Acts 5:32. The invisible church are all true Christians in every denomination living up to all the Lord, through the Comforter, revealed to them personally.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#44
Feb 24, 2009
3,047
1,029
113
New Zealand
#44
1LonelyKnight said:
2Corinthians 4 ...

...

The chapter continues and closes thusly ...

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The scriptures distinguish between the outward man and the inward, those who appear as whitewashed sepulchre, those who wash the outside of the cup, the wolf in sheep's clothing, those who have power in this world and those who do for eternity. The scriptures distinguish between a temple building and the temple of the holy spirit, between laws written on stones and those on the heart. It distinguishes between Jacob and Esau, between works of the law and the fruit of the spirit.

These concepts and many more like them, taken together as a systematic theology based on hermeneutics including exegesis form the doctrine of visible and invisible church.

The invisible church manifests on the playground, on a park bench, on the bus, in the grocery store - it knows no bounds and is not shackled to a building or preacher or rites and rituals and outward forms of McReligion and Churchianity.
Click to expand...
I agree the church is not a building.. but I contend that it is always 'local, visible' as the group of saved baptised believers that meet.

Even when there is one church of all believers in the Heavenly Jerusalem it will still be 'local, visible'
 
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