Once Lost Always Lost?

[WebersHome]

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The lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is called the second death.

Well; according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there is only one resurrection
allotted per person. Seeing as how the lost will have used up their one
resurrection to face justice at the Great White Throne event, then I don't
expect any of them will ever come back from the lake.

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[mailmandan]

Once in the lake of fire, always in the lake of fire. No second chances to get out.

 

[Dino246]

Hebrews 9:27 "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment"

I've always taken this verse at face value, that we get one lifetime's worth of chances to accept Christ in our place. The thing is, we don't get a guarantee of long life or many chances.

A person is only truly lost if they die having rejected Christ. Not accepting (when presented with the Gospel) is functionally the same as rejecting, so they too are lost.

However, in response to the thread title, we were all lost at one time, so 'once lost always lost' doesn't hold in the same way one might use the phrase, 'once saved always saved' (whether one holds to that or not).

 

[WebersHome]

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in response to the thread title

According to the OP, the thread title refers specifically to the lake of
brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15. Let's not start generalizing.

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[Magenta]

The lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is called the second death.

According to the OP, the thread title refers specifically to the lake of
brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15. Let's not start generalizing.

Just curious to know why you are calling it a lake of brimstone? Is that
a specific translation? I checked ESV, NIV, and KJV and all said lake of fire.

 

[Chuckt]

Just curious to know why you are calling it a lake of brimstone? Is that
a specific translation? I checked ESV, NIV, and KJV and all said lake of fire.

New International Version
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

New Living Translation
"But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars--their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

English Standard Version
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Berean Study Bible
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."

Berean Literal Bible
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and having become abominable and murderers and the sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their portion is in the lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

New American Standard Bible
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

King James Bible
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars--their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

International Standard Version
But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."

NET Bible
But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But to the timid, the unbelievers, the evil, the defiled, murderers, sorcerers, fornicators, idol worshipers and all liars: their part is in the burning Lake of Fire and Brimstone, which is the second death.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But cowardly, unfaithful, and detestable people, murderers, sexual sinners, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

New American Standard 1977
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
But the fearful and unbelieving and the abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

King James 2000 Bible
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

American King James Version
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

American Standard Version
But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part'shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Darby Bible Translation
But to the fearful and unbelieving, [and sinners], and those who make themselves abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [is] in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

English Revised Version
But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Webster's Bible Translation
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and lewd men, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Weymouth New Testament
But as for cowards and the unfaithful, and the polluted, and murderers, fornicators, and those who practise magic or worship idols, and all liars--the portion allotted to them shall be in the Lake which burns with fire and sulphur. This is the Second Death."

World English Bible
But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Young's Literal Translation
and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part is in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.'


Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

[Magenta]

My goodness, thank you Chuck!

 

[wattie]

Once lost, always lost?

Well.. once not saved and dead.. then for sure.. no more chance..

But if someone is STILL ALIVE.. then if they lost.. there is always a chance to be eternally saved.

There is the point though of people who continually reject salvation from Jesus. Jesus then will turn from convicting them of their need of salvation and leave them to their hardened heart state. Not sure how they would then later be delivered though.

Example

(Joh 12:37) But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:


(Joh 12:38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?


(Joh 12:39) Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,


(Joh 12:40) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

So here you have Jesus doing real miracles in front of people.. yet they believe not.


Eternal life though, begins the moment someone receives Christ. They don't wait till they die.

The eternal lake of fire though, that people do wait till they die for.

This is Jesus' grace... He gives people every chance.. unless they keep rejecting Him till the day they die.

 

[John146]

A Calvinist would agree, once lost always lost. That lost person has no chance in changing his position. But that's on God, not the person.

 

[DP]

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The lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is called the second death.

Well; according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there is only one resurrection
allotted per person. Seeing as how the lost will have used up their one
resurrection to face justice at the Great White Throne event, then I don't
expect any of them will ever come back from the lake.

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But that's not actually what all God's Word is showing. Have to understand Rev.20 in relation to all of God's Word, not simply isolate that one chapter by itself.

Why even have a thousand years reign, and especially another time of testing by Satan if no one is saved at the end of the thousand years?

Why even have a GWT judgment with opening up the Book of Life to see if anyone's name is written there?

Why not just cast all the unsaved into the lake of fire at the start... of Christ's thousand years reign?

Apostle Peter gave the answer in 2 Pet.3, where he said God is long-suffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is why the OT prophets were given to write about the future Millennial events also.

After Jesus returns, we ALL... will be in the "spiritual body" type Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. That includes the wicked also, for the idea of resurrection means raised to the body of incorruption, not putting on a new flesh body like some reincarnation idea.

For those yet alive on earth when Jesus returns, ALL... shall be 'changed' to the body of incorruption, wicked included.

All death in the flesh will be over at that point. The ONLY remaining way to die after that is the "second death", which is one's spirit with soul cast into the "lake of fire" at the end of the thousand years.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A Calvinist would agree, once lost always lost. That lost person has no chance in changing his position. But that's on God, not the person.

Yet they teach the elect who was once lost. will be found and saved.

Please lets stop with the silliness.. Calvin is long since dead, Lets talk about what people in the discussion believe, not what some man dead for centuries thinks..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The fire of brimstone, is said to be eternal. there will be weeping and nashing of teeth, The worm will never die. etc etc.

It was not made for mankind, but those who reject Christ in this lifetime, will share in punishment with Satan himself

 

[John146]

I thought they believe they were saved from the foundation of the world and those who are lost, are lost from the foundation of the world.

Yet they teach the elect who was once lost. will be found and saved.

Please lets stop with the silliness.. Calvin is long since dead, Lets talk about what people in the discussion believe, not what some man dead for centuries thinks..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought they believe they were saved from the foundation of the world and those who are lost, are lost from the foundation of the world.

They believe their salvation is secure from the foundation of the world. And it is,

But they still believe we must be born again.. In order to be born again, you must be lost (dead)

 

[Magenta]

New International Version
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Were all your translations from that verse? (Rev 21:8) Because that is not the verse Webers originally cited. I wondered because your NIV did not match my NIV. I looked up Rev 20:11-15

 

[WebersHome]

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†. Rev 20:11-13 . . I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before
the throne, and books were opened; and the dead were judged from the
things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) and I suspect
that means death for each sin.

For example; let's say that someone has to answer for 250 acts of
dishonesty. Well; in order to satisfy justice for each of those 250 acts, they
would have to undergo the death penalty 250 times; viz: one death per one
act.

In other words; in order to satisfy justice, the serial liar would have to be
executed and resurrected 250 times. But that is not likely to happen seeing
as how Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 testify that there is but one resurrection
allotted per person; which of course serial liars will use up in order to stand
and face justice.

So then, when the serial liar is terminated in the lake of brimstone, they will
have to stay there with a balance of 249 counts of dishonesty on the books
for which they will never have enough lives to give in exchange.

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[Magenta]

I have never seen a court of law impose the death sentence for dishonesty.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

I have never seen a court of law impose the death sentence for dishonesty.

I assume he just used a simple example, the bible is clear that the penalty of sin is death, so by God's standard a lie does lead to a death sentence. It's just us humans that try to make some sins so much worse than others

As to the general discussion, what is the point of faith if people were elected and are either saved or condemned from birth?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have never seen a court of law impose the death sentence for dishonesty.

Adam and eve ate a peace of fruit.

the punishment was death, and the fall of all mankind, and the most unspeakable horrors we face on a daily basis.

 

[Magenta]

I assume he just used a simple example, the bible is clear that the penalty of sin is death, so by God's standard a lie does lead to a death sentence. It's just us humans that try to make some sins so much worse than others

As to the general discussion, what is the point of faith if people were elected and are either saved or condemned from birth?

I see, thank you for explaining. Though Jesus did say that
some sin was greater than others, so He made a distinction.