ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS... I THINK NOT!
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Salvation is a free gift.
So, what are you going to do with it?
So, what are you going to do with it?
Try to tell people how good He is. Everyone has a hard time understanding the gift of eternal life at first...
It doesn't make sense that He just gives it away after all the work He did to earn it for us. It doesn't make sense that we work so hard to earn the smallest things and then the Greatest Gift of All is handed to us for free...
Surely we should feel guilty for receiving this great gift that we don't deserve. Surely we should give it back if we fail to live up to His Name. Probably most would feel this way if it were the kind of gift that can be given back. There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. This is the inheritance of the saved. Inheritance. Not something you can work towards and buy. Something that has to be given to you because it is too great for you to earn on your own.
"Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life."
So,,when you examine this passage,, the promise of a crown of life hinges on one being faithful,, even unto death.
It's easy to be a Christian when the weather is nice.. but when we are under severe temptation and are tested,, things can get rough. Peter denied Christ 3 times,, and He walked with Jesus. He knew Jesus,, and still he denied knowing Jesus when confronted.
So,,when you examine this passage,, the promise of a crown of life hinges on one being faithful,, even unto death.
It's easy to be a Christian when the weather is nice.. but when we are under severe temptation and are tested,, things can get rough. Peter denied Christ 3 times,, and He walked with Jesus. He knew Jesus,, and still he denied knowing Jesus when confronted.
Yes, so the first passage you quoted wasn't talking about our ups and downs as a faithful Christian, our life long journey. It is speaking of tribulations of the type leading to death. A true believe will never deny Christ if or when our life depends on it. Once Peter saw the resurrected Christ it like cemented his faith in Jesus as the all powerful God-man and Peter had a much different reaction when he was put to death by the Roman authorities later on in his earthly life. IMHO, the two accounts are totally different situations and circumstances.
I never said Peter's account was connected to "Be faithful unto death.......crown of life." I did say we can connect an integrity problem with tribulation. Everyday people surrender their integrity. Some for a hit from a crack pipe.
Peter surrendered his integrity as well, when he denied knowing Jesus. When the test came, Peter wasn't ready, and he failed miserably! But earlier, we see that Peter is ready to kill over His Lord being arrested. Peter's confidence failed him, once he seen his Savior arrested. hence,,,"I will strike the Shepherd and the sheep will be scattered.",, Peter stumbled.
Sorry if you thought I was claiming the 2 accounts spoke of each other. I just used the "Unto Death" as showing that we are to be faithful unto death,,, not just when things are nice and easy and life is good.
Peter surrendered his integrity as well, when he denied knowing Jesus. When the test came, Peter wasn't ready, and he failed miserably! But earlier, we see that Peter is ready to kill over His Lord being arrested. Peter's confidence failed him, once he seen his Savior arrested. hence,,,"I will strike the Shepherd and the sheep will be scattered.",, Peter stumbled.
Sorry if you thought I was claiming the 2 accounts spoke of each other. I just used the "Unto Death" as showing that we are to be faithful unto death,,, not just when things are nice and easy and life is good.
F
[SUP]John 3:19-21
19 [/SUP]The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.
[SUP]20[/SUP]For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are—wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God’s help, in dependence upon Him].
Peter was not filled with the Holy Spirit, he was not a new creation when he denied Jesus. The 'free gift' did not come yet to live in us.
Romans 8
Amplified Bible
8 Therefore, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
Notice how many more passages we Pentecostals can use. I can use the whole bible including the Old Testament.
19 [/SUP]The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.
[SUP]20[/SUP]For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are—wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God’s help, in dependence upon Him].
Peter was not filled with the Holy Spirit, he was not a new creation when he denied Jesus. The 'free gift' did not come yet to live in us.
Romans 8
Amplified Bible
8 Therefore, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
Notice how many more passages we Pentecostals can use. I can use the whole bible including the Old Testament.
F
I'll say again, I'm surrounded by Calvinist, 4 of them ministers whose mouths are filthy, they practice sexual sin, they lie every day, they steal. I have never in all my life lived or worked around a Calvinist (who claim that just because of appreciation for the Cross they can live in obedience) who actually obeyed God. They, every one, including the pastors are always immoral. Where is their new nature?
By their fruits you shall know them. If you know the truth, then you will be set free. If you believe what you believe & can not live any different from the world, you do not know the Truth.
[h=3]1 John 3[/h]Amplified Bible (AMP)
3 See what [an incredible] quality of love the Father has given (shown, bestowed on) us, that we should [be permitted to] be named and called and counted the children of God! And so we are! The reason that the world does not know (recognize, acknowledge) us is that it does not know (recognize, acknowledge) Him.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, we are [even here and] now God’s children; it is not yet disclosed (made clear) what we shall be [hereafter], but we know that when He comes and is manifested, we shall [as God’s children] resemble and be like Him, for we shall see Him just as He [really] is.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And everyone who has this hope [resting] on Him cleanses (purifies) himself just as He is pure (chaste, undefiled, guiltless).
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Everyone who commits (practices) sin is guilty of lawlessness; for [that is what] sin is, lawlessness (the breaking, violating of God’s law by transgression or neglect—being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will).
[SUP]5 [/SUP]You know that He appeared in visible form and became Man to take away [upon Himself] sins, and in Him there is no sin [essentially and forever].
[SUP]6 [/SUP]No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous.
[SUP]8 [/SUP][But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].
You say you believe, you have faith in other words, faith without works is dead, the demons believe & tremble. Believe & obedience are used interchangeably in Hebrews, in Romans, by Jesus, by Paul. James, Peter & Jude warns against being stupid. You do not believe if you are walking in darkness, you don't even know Jesus.
By their fruits you shall know them. If you know the truth, then you will be set free. If you believe what you believe & can not live any different from the world, you do not know the Truth.
[h=3]1 John 3[/h]Amplified Bible (AMP)
3 See what [an incredible] quality of love the Father has given (shown, bestowed on) us, that we should [be permitted to] be named and called and counted the children of God! And so we are! The reason that the world does not know (recognize, acknowledge) us is that it does not know (recognize, acknowledge) Him.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, we are [even here and] now God’s children; it is not yet disclosed (made clear) what we shall be [hereafter], but we know that when He comes and is manifested, we shall [as God’s children] resemble and be like Him, for we shall see Him just as He [really] is.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And everyone who has this hope [resting] on Him cleanses (purifies) himself just as He is pure (chaste, undefiled, guiltless).
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Everyone who commits (practices) sin is guilty of lawlessness; for [that is what] sin is, lawlessness (the breaking, violating of God’s law by transgression or neglect—being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will).
[SUP]5 [/SUP]You know that He appeared in visible form and became Man to take away [upon Himself] sins, and in Him there is no sin [essentially and forever].
[SUP]6 [/SUP]No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous.
[SUP]8 [/SUP][But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].
You say you believe, you have faith in other words, faith without works is dead, the demons believe & tremble. Believe & obedience are used interchangeably in Hebrews, in Romans, by Jesus, by Paul. James, Peter & Jude warns against being stupid. You do not believe if you are walking in darkness, you don't even know Jesus.
Eh. God would not toss out someone who has been obedient in taking in the Holy Spirit in their bodies. While we were in our sins and lost without the Messiah, Jesus died for us, and took the penalty of the Cross.
I dont' believe like the demons believe, I simply respect God's power to save whom he chooses. If you think that's Calvinism, you don't understand that Calvinism is a whole lot more.
I dont' believe like the demons believe, I simply respect God's power to save whom he chooses. If you think that's Calvinism, you don't understand that Calvinism is a whole lot more.
It seems that Elin's comment may be a good explanation for this...concerning that this book was written to Hebrews, and could potentially be speaking about returning to Judaism.
My biggest concern is that this scripture would not just involve 'once saved always saved' if we read it in your intended context. Instead it would say that no one can ever return to the faith. But does that seem to make sense? What about the prodigal son, or the scriptures which talk about receiving a brother who repents? What about people in the church who had fallen away and had come back to the Lord?
Does the Hebrews scripture mean that everyone who walks away from the faith is forever lost, even if they later recommit their lives to Christ? I honestly don't think this is the case. so perhaps this text does speak of something different, as Elin said in another posting.
With this said, we may need to be a little careful before using this as a proof text, unless we intend to go all the way, and to firmly prohibit and reject every fallen believer from ever coming back to Christ.
My biggest concern is that this scripture would not just involve 'once saved always saved' if we read it in your intended context. Instead it would say that no one can ever return to the faith. But does that seem to make sense? What about the prodigal son, or the scriptures which talk about receiving a brother who repents? What about people in the church who had fallen away and had come back to the Lord?
Does the Hebrews scripture mean that everyone who walks away from the faith is forever lost, even if they later recommit their lives to Christ? I honestly don't think this is the case. so perhaps this text does speak of something different, as Elin said in another posting.
With this said, we may need to be a little careful before using this as a proof text, unless we intend to go all the way, and to firmly prohibit and reject every fallen believer from ever coming back to Christ.
F
Once you are saved, you are always saved, that doesn't mean people won't fall down and stumble, remember, faithful is he who started a good work in you and He will finish it, He is the author and finisher of our salvation, if we start looking at ourselves thats our fault, cause we didn't save and cannot ever save ourselves, Jesus started it, we let Him work through us and use us, and He will finish it.