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R
Actually, after rereading many other Scriptures this evening, I recant my position about Rev 3:5. The Lamb's book of life IS referred to here, and the promise is that God will not blot the names of believers from this book, who have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. So I will admit I made an error in interpretation here, but it does not negate eternal security in any way.
If believers could have their names blotted from the Lamb's book of life in Rev 3:5, then what was the point of writing their names in this book from the foundation of the world?
T
BELOW THE SASH
Laodicea is kin to an atheist ... totally dependant on self- thinking they don't need God at all.
Philadelphia is in the state where they think their works can bring them salvation.
Sardis has the knowledge that Christ is the way ... but their belief is not founded on the rock- so to speak. They await the Holy Spirit to lift them up.
ABOVE THE SASH
Thyatira IS in God's love ... They have the Holy Spirit ...
Pergamum represents the word, Jesus, they are ready to preach ...
Smyrna is the mind of Christ ... a renewed mind
Ephesus is the spirit ... they walk in the spirit more constantly but have to take care not to look down on those beneath them ... because being spirit oriented they truly hate flesh/sin. They have to remember to love.
My rough -off the cuff explanation for my previous post.
Laodicea is kin to an atheist ... totally dependant on self- thinking they don't need God at all.
Philadelphia is in the state where they think their works can bring them salvation.
Sardis has the knowledge that Christ is the way ... but their belief is not founded on the rock- so to speak. They await the Holy Spirit to lift them up.
ABOVE THE SASH
Thyatira IS in God's love ... They have the Holy Spirit ...
Pergamum represents the word, Jesus, they are ready to preach ...
Smyrna is the mind of Christ ... a renewed mind
Ephesus is the spirit ... they walk in the spirit more constantly but have to take care not to look down on those beneath them ... because being spirit oriented they truly hate flesh/sin. They have to remember to love.
My rough -off the cuff explanation for my previous post.
The core issue is simple. It is not actually about salvation but righteousness.
There are those who want to say walking in righteousness is evil. For whatever emotional reason they have they actually have a resentment of those they regard as self righteous, not because of their hypocracy or failure but because they cannot do it themselves.
It is this problem that is also when either you fall in faith and understanding of Jesus or you realise you have some serious emotional unresolved issues in your life even though you have been a christian for many, many years.
Jesus was very simple. Amen to those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for theirs in the Kingdom of heaven. Amen to those who have a pure heart, they will see God.
The problem with those who appear to be righteous is their actual emotional life. The heart wants many things and rouses the emotions to portray things in a different light than they actually are. The issue is always to understand the true significance of what is appropriate and walk within it. The problem with the pharisees was they did not do this, but rather wanted to appear one way and be able to walk another. Their hearts were cold and empty, dead bones in them, which meant the true meaning of communion with God was missed. It is this where people fail, even when walking with christianity, which is the real failure of legalism when it occurs. But legalism is not the biggest issue in the church, it is emotional expression and the missing of love.
There are those who want to say walking in righteousness is evil. For whatever emotional reason they have they actually have a resentment of those they regard as self righteous, not because of their hypocracy or failure but because they cannot do it themselves.
It is this problem that is also when either you fall in faith and understanding of Jesus or you realise you have some serious emotional unresolved issues in your life even though you have been a christian for many, many years.
Jesus was very simple. Amen to those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for theirs in the Kingdom of heaven. Amen to those who have a pure heart, they will see God.
The problem with those who appear to be righteous is their actual emotional life. The heart wants many things and rouses the emotions to portray things in a different light than they actually are. The issue is always to understand the true significance of what is appropriate and walk within it. The problem with the pharisees was they did not do this, but rather wanted to appear one way and be able to walk another. Their hearts were cold and empty, dead bones in them, which meant the true meaning of communion with God was missed. It is this where people fail, even when walking with christianity, which is the real failure of legalism when it occurs. But legalism is not the biggest issue in the church, it is emotional expression and the missing of love.
R
I have a very hard following what you have to say most of the time. But I will comment on one part of your post:
"For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief." Pro 24:16
"Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand." Psa 37:24
Even a saint who falls, the Lord upholds him! The saints are preserved forever:
"For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off." Psa 37:28
"For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief." Pro 24:16
"Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand." Psa 37:24
Even a saint who falls, the Lord upholds him! The saints are preserved forever:
"For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off." Psa 37:28
B
I recall expressing this a few weeks ago. I was scolded for asking if English was his 2nd language.
Anyhoo, This thread, this topic, and this conversation brings one phrase to mind: "Salvation belongs to our God" (Rev 7:10) which reminds me of a song (Petra and Crystal Lewis have recorded popular versions).
salvation belongs to our God
who sits upon the throne
and unto the lamb
be praise and glory, wisdom and thanks
honor, and power, and strength
be to our God forever and ever
be to our God forever and ever
be to our God forever and ever
AMEN
we the redeemed shall be strong
in purpose and unity
declaring aloud
praise and glory, wisdom and thanks
honor, and power, and strength!
be to our God forever and ever
be to our God forever and ever
be to our God forever and ever
AMEN
Anyhoo, This thread, this topic, and this conversation brings one phrase to mind: "Salvation belongs to our God" (Rev 7:10) which reminds me of a song (Petra and Crystal Lewis have recorded popular versions).
salvation belongs to our God
who sits upon the throne
and unto the lamb
be praise and glory, wisdom and thanks
honor, and power, and strength
be to our God forever and ever
be to our God forever and ever
be to our God forever and ever
AMEN
we the redeemed shall be strong
in purpose and unity
declaring aloud
praise and glory, wisdom and thanks
honor, and power, and strength!
be to our God forever and ever
be to our God forever and ever
be to our God forever and ever
AMEN
Ok. There is a simple idea.
Righteousness and purity are good, sin and evil are bad.
God empowers those who are redeemed to walk in righteousness and purity. It is not so much they are failures struggling to walk correctly as they are being transformed and remade so they can and want to walk righteously and in purity.
What religious people want to do is excuse sin and say they do religious deeds or beliefs to make up for it. Jesus is saying he empowers the believer to walk correctly through knowing they are loved and have communion with God through faith.
It cannot be taken away from the believer and the believer stands with their fellow brothers and sisters listening to Christ.
But to say there are evil legalists in our midst that need exposing is actually failing at two levels.
Firstly that we have a ministry to discern the hearts of believers.
Secondly that God calls us to separate from those we deem not fully walking in the Lord.
What we are actually called to do is forgive, love and uplift one another. When sin is present point it out and call for repentance.
People want a centre of security in belief, rather than a centre of security in our relationship with God. We are sheep from the beginning and have been called to follow. And that is what we should do.
Righteousness and purity are good, sin and evil are bad.
God empowers those who are redeemed to walk in righteousness and purity. It is not so much they are failures struggling to walk correctly as they are being transformed and remade so they can and want to walk righteously and in purity.
What religious people want to do is excuse sin and say they do religious deeds or beliefs to make up for it. Jesus is saying he empowers the believer to walk correctly through knowing they are loved and have communion with God through faith.
It cannot be taken away from the believer and the believer stands with their fellow brothers and sisters listening to Christ.
But to say there are evil legalists in our midst that need exposing is actually failing at two levels.
Firstly that we have a ministry to discern the hearts of believers.
Secondly that God calls us to separate from those we deem not fully walking in the Lord.
What we are actually called to do is forgive, love and uplift one another. When sin is present point it out and call for repentance.
People want a centre of security in belief, rather than a centre of security in our relationship with God. We are sheep from the beginning and have been called to follow. And that is what we should do.
R
Interesting, as we see in Revelation:
"And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come ." Rev 4:8
Compared to:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Rev 1:8
"And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come ." Rev 4:8
Compared to:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Rev 1:8
B
Amen!
Did anyone else grow up singing their theology?
Reminds me of another great song/hymn, roaringkitten:
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee;
Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessèd Trinity!
Holy, holy, holy! All the saints adore Thee,
Casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea;
Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
Who was, and is, and evermore shall be.
Holy, holy, holy! though the darkness hide Thee,
Though the eye of sinful man Thy glory may not see;
Only Thou art holy; there is none beside Thee,
Perfect in power, in love, and purity.
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
All Thy works shall praise Thy Name, in earth, and sky, and sea;
Holy, holy, holy; merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessèd Trinity!
Did anyone else grow up singing their theology?
Reminds me of another great song/hymn, roaringkitten:
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee;
Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessèd Trinity!
Holy, holy, holy! All the saints adore Thee,
Casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea;
Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
Who was, and is, and evermore shall be.
Holy, holy, holy! though the darkness hide Thee,
Though the eye of sinful man Thy glory may not see;
Only Thou art holy; there is none beside Thee,
Perfect in power, in love, and purity.
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
All Thy works shall praise Thy Name, in earth, and sky, and sea;
Holy, holy, holy; merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessèd Trinity!
I agree that if you can specify and make clear what is being called a false witness and why it is false.
I would list OSAS as a foundational principle as a problem, rather than we are eternally called sheep, who were known before the beginning of time.
Another would be we are "gods" with command authority, our words dictating what happens to us in the future.
Another would be our sins are forgiven in the future before we have commited them, which negates the victory of the cross and the walking in righteousness and purity. We are called to know what this means, not as an impossible burden but as a fulfillment of love working in our hearts.
I would call teaching on these things as part of the ministry within the church.
Do sheep follow these different teachings? Probably because it does make sense in certain backgrounds, but staying there is not a good idea.
I would list OSAS as a foundational principle as a problem, rather than we are eternally called sheep, who were known before the beginning of time.
Another would be we are "gods" with command authority, our words dictating what happens to us in the future.
Another would be our sins are forgiven in the future before we have commited them, which negates the victory of the cross and the walking in righteousness and purity. We are called to know what this means, not as an impossible burden but as a fulfillment of love working in our hearts.
I would call teaching on these things as part of the ministry within the church.
Do sheep follow these different teachings? Probably because it does make sense in certain backgrounds, but staying there is not a good idea.