Pagan Symbols and Christianity

[tribesman]

I dont do homework for know it alls

No, ive never studied, i just pull it outa my ear

Jeje...sit in your cave or at the fence and wait for the "senkrecht von oben" calls then. Why would you need to discuss anything.

Btw I don't need your agreement. If you're offended and do not wish to communicate, then fine with me. Let's drop that.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Elizabeth, you look ............

[video=youtube;_2vAzE8FJKk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_2vAzE8FJKk[/video]

Thank you.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Your points are so very good, and it could be we can keep our hearts and minds pure, even with worshipping as we personally choose.

I look at how God the Father saw it, and it was a complete "no". When we received the Holy Spirit we were given the ability to better worship in spirit and truth. But all through the entire bible, obedience and doing, we are told, expresses this. Every verse in the bible fits each other, they work together but it is easy to look at one without balancing it with another that on the surface seems to disagree. Is it really a sign of weakness to do physical things to help obey? If it is, and we get strength in obedience is that bad?

I like your point that I can say how I think God wants us to do and be, but my job with you is to build you up, I cannot say I judge you as a sinner because you do not see God's ways the same as I do.

At the same time, I think the church is leading wrong with using only man made holidays, and I would give about all of myself to steer them to a safer way to worship. I so hope I am wrong, but I know the way God leads isn't wrong.

To be fair, I actually don't "celebrate" certain holidays much anymore. What once was fun is just really stinking depressing.
I even cried on Valentine's Day. Uncontrollably actually.

 

[tribesman]

Acts is talking about the Gentile believers and why they should abstain. It was to keep peace within the church. The apostles were looking out for the new converts and realized something needed to be done so they could maintain faithfulness. This ruling was necessary for that time. The Pharisees were being their normal selves and creating issue and felt the Gentiles should keep the law, to be part of the covenant of Israel. This was done so the Gentiles could be more accepted.

You have a point in that the ruling was necessary for that time. And we are discussing the issue in the light of that time now. Paul could never have said an "OK" to eat meat sacrificed to idols.

This was nothing more than guideline for the Gentiles so they would be accepted in to fellowship.

And an important one, as important was the abstaining from fornication.

Revelation is also not saying Christians were not allowed to eat meat sacrificed to idols.
Under the Roman persecution, Christians were denied the right to buy food in the empire unless they offered worship to the emperors. Food was hard to come by for the faithful yet there was plenty to be had if they wanted to participate in the great public feasts where the meat of the animals who had been sacrificed to pagan gods was being served to the public. Hunger is a powerful incentive and many Christians gave in and participated in these public feasts.
If the Christians accept the food they were then falling back to pagan ways. This did not forbid them to eat it, but due to Roman law if they did purchase/eat food then they were required to resort to ungodly worship. So, Christians abstained.

There were exceptions from this. The "shambles" Paul spoke of in 1Cor.10:25 was such an exception, and in that case people didn't have to ask conscience, since the food was not sacrificed.

You cannot argue abstaining while leaving Pauls address to Corinth out. He clearly says we can eat, but do not cause another to stumble. This does not mean that I cannot eat a Cadbury Creme egg right now in the privacy of my own home, but when you do something in the presence of another weak in faith you need to consider them first.

He says do not eat such meat since it will cause problems for your neighbor. The knowledge (that there was one God) could lead to puffing up if it didn't consider the edifying love for the brethren in obeying the ruling NOT to eat such meat.

Paul does also states that it is best not to ask where the food came from. If you have no knowledge that it was a sacrifice then your conscience is not affected. Afterall, food cannot hurt you spiritually.

This is something else, here we are speaking of meat which people knew was sacrificed to idols.

The moral of this story is as Christians we do have certain freedoms, but just because we have the freedom to do something doesnt give us the right to abuse it or throw it in someone's face.

Paul in his day did not say christians had freedom to eat meat sacrificed to idols. That would, if anything, have been a catastrophy for him as a jew.

 

[TomL]

We are supposed to learn from history. History tells us that we are to be loyal to the One True God, to stay away from pagan worship. This sin comes before any other sin in God’s eyes, and we are God’s creation. God is the boss. God rules.

The history given in the OT shows a lot of incorporating pagan ways into the worship of God that God wants. The Hebrews got tired of waiting for Moses when he met with God and received the ten commandments. If they were to trust God, they wanted to have something to look at like the pagans had in their statues, so they made a golden calf to see as they worshipped the one true God. Go read the history of life under the kings before Christ came. It is a history of God saying to just don’t use pagan ways to worship. They brought pagan ways into their worship in many ways, and defended it with almost the same words used in this post.

We can use all kinds of human reasoning to decide what came first, the pagans or Christians in a symbol, but what we are to do is listen to God about it. He outlines how we are to worship. God says follow Him, not men. So where did a worship idea come from, from God or men?

Paul scolds and scolds about how the Jews were absolutely wrong to tell the gentiles they couldn’t come in without Jewish rituals when Paul had spent so much time explaining the Holy Spirit, and what WAS required. And the Jews were all gung ho about doing so they forgot about being. So we take this to mean we can get away with anything as long as our heart is right. But there is scripture telling where this comes to an end. If your heart is right it will lead you to doing, and if it doesn”t, then your heart really isn’t right.

There is a saying about a strong boss: “when he says jump, I say how high?” There is no boss more powerful,more holy, more wonderful than God.

You are so right. It's all about how we should worship God. The way God wants us to worship him, or can we just do our own thing.

Thank you for this post.

 

[Abiding]

Jeje...sit in your cave or at the fence and wait for the "senkrecht von oben" calls then. Why would you need to discuss anything.

Btw I don't need your agreement. If you're offended and do not wish to communicate, then fine with me. Let's drop that.

Im not offended, nor even a tiny bit angry. I just dont want to talk to you really till.
1. you get a couple pills in you and they become effectual.
2. till you learn the difference between incorrect scriptural knowledge and a heretic.
3. and notice you also have incorrect knowledge and noone is cursing you.

 

[tribesman]

Im not offended, nor even a tiny bit angry. I just dont want to talk to you really...

What is your issue then?

 

[tribesman]

1. you get a couple pills in you and they become effectual.

Your despise shines through well here. Ty for making it certain.

2. till you learn the difference between incorrect scriptural knowledge and a heretic.

Did I ever deny that there is such a difference? Either false assumption or, worse, false accusation from your side.

3. and notice you also have incorrect knowledge and noone is cursing you.

Did I ever deny that I "also have incorrect knowledge"? Never did I do that. Assuming things out of the blue you are. Where did I say someone is cursing me?

What is this?

 

[Abiding]

Ill make one last post on this. I dont despise you at all, no way, not one bit.
In fact i like you.

I dont however like what i seen when i came into this thread a few minutes ago.
Not only were you calling people heretics, you were close to cursing them
And funny thing was your the one that was wrong. Nitey

 

[TomL]

Dzi beads and feng shui are not kristian, but chinese wear them too. Not worship them.. worship GOD alone.

Welcome to the site.

 

[TomL]

Yet you yourself said it was because of the weak faith of others one should not. Yet 1 Cor says it is ok but not to the hurt of those weak. It is not about meat and drink, it is about the intent.

I have not been drawn into isms because I see people like you and others and how they belittle those who disagree with them. I have never seen someone like you going around and taking the place of the Judge, you do condemn anyone who dares to resist your ism. And yet, no one else will say a word to you because of your snapping and rude and condemning attitude.

If it is okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols, does it then follow that it is okay to worship those idols?

I don't think that Paul expressly says it is okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols, but he was very clear about doing so in front of weak brethren.

 

[cfultz3]

If it is okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols, does it then follow that it is okay to worship those idols?

I don't think that Paul expressly says it is okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols, but he was very clear about doing so in front of weak brethren.

Hi Tom,

I think Abiding and Elizabeth explained it better then I did or could. It was not the actual sacrifice which was offered, seeing that it was burnt up, but it was the pieces which where cut off from it. So, if you would, read what they were saying (I agree to all which they were saying about the matter).

 

[TomL]

Hi Tom,

I think Abiding and Elizabeth explained it better then I did or could. It was not the actual sacrifice which was offered, seeing that it was burnt up, but it was the pieces which where cut off from it. So, if you would, read what they were saying (I agree to all which they were saying about the matter).

Scripture says "meat sacrificed to idols," and that is what it means. Let's not water down what it means. It means exactly what it says. Just because Paul said, "don't eat in front of weak brethren," does not necessarily mean that we can eat when weak brethren are not nearby, does it?

 

[cfultz3]

Scripture says "meat sacrificed to idols," and that is what it means. Let's not water down what it means. It means exactly what it says. Just because Paul said, "don't eat in front of weak brethren," does not necessarily mean that we can eat when weak brethren are not nearby, does it?

Hi Tom,

You will notice in my post there were no hints at me attempting to water down Scripture. Thank you for asking me to further explain myself instead of implying anything.

Yes it does. It is okay to eat it because we know that there is but only one TRUE GOD. This is telling us that there is really no other god there to have sacrificed to. This is the implication of the 'but' in:

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[TomL]

Maybe I should clarify my question. If one who has knowledge that idols are nothing is seen eating meat sacrificed to idols by a form idol worshiper, will he then believe it is then okay to revert to worshipping idols. Paul says that one who has knowledge has ruined, or caused a brother to stumble. He then says, "Therefore, if food that I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, in order to keep my brother from stumbling." I Corinthians 8.13, ISV, isv.org

It seems the preponderance of what Paul is saying is that it is best not to eat food/meat sacrificed to idols. You just never know when you will be seen by, or aware of by a weak brother.

 

[cfultz3]

Maybe I should clarify my question. If one who has knowledge that idols are nothing is seen eating meat sacrificed to idols by a form idol worshiper, will he then believe it is then okay to revert to worshipping idols. Paul says that one who has knowledge has ruined, or caused a brother to stumble. He then says, "Therefore, if food that I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, in order to keep my brother from stumbling." I Corinthians 8.13, ISV, isv.org

It seems the preponderance of what Paul is saying is that it is best not to eat food/meat sacrificed to idols. You just never know when you will be seen by, or aware of by a weak brother.

OK????? Is that not what I said?

 

[TomL]

Hi Tom,

You will notice in my post there were no hints at me attempting to water down Scripture. Thank you for asking me to further explain myself instead of implying anything.

Yes it does. It is okay to eat it because we know that there is but only one TRUE GOD. This is telling us that there is really no other god there to have sacrificed to. This is the implication of the 'but' in:

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Well, let's personalize this. Is there anything in life that would cause you to stumble if you saw a brother do it? Of course there is, we all have weaknesses. You may not realize it, but we do. For me, it's loneliness. I do not celebrate Christmas. But when I see people having a good time, doing things I use to do, sometimes I want to join with them. I never do, but the temptation is there.

 

[TomL]

OK????? Is that not what I said?

I'm not sure, it's been a while.

 

[TomL]

OK????? Is that not what I said?

I'm not sure, it's been a while.

But, let's keep in mind what Paul said in the conclusion of the matter, "Therefore, if food that I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, in order to keep my brother from stumbling." I Corinthians 8.13, ISV, isv.org

 

[zone]

Maybe I should clarify my question. If one who has knowledge that idols are nothing is seen eating meat sacrificed to idols by a form idol worshiper, will he then believe it is then okay to revert to worshipping idols. Paul says that one who has knowledge has ruined, or caused a brother to stumble. He then says, "Therefore, if food that I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, in order to keep my brother from stumbling." I Corinthians 8.13, ISV, isv.org

It seems the preponderance of what Paul is saying is that it is best not to eat food/meat sacrificed to idols. You just never know when you will be seen by, or aware of by a weak brother.

when was the last time you hung around anybody who ate meat sacrificed to idols?
how do you know your bologna wasn't