Paradise

[RickShafer]

There was a certain woman, who had a guy who was trying to help her understand, and the same was accused of
having bad doctrine. And she posted back to him, and said: "How is it I hear these things from thee? Give a further account,
because all you have said thus far I disagree with."
Then the (very wise) guy said within himself - "What more can I say", "Shall I appease her, thus aswaging her wrath,
and be accepted; or shall I continue to tell her the truth?" Then he thought within himself and said - "I know what I will do, I will sell all the
predetermined thoughts I have, and wind up with fluff, that shall appease her." So he went into the market place of ideas, and sold all he had,
and came up with some phoney-baloney rapture doctrine. And he came back and presented it to her. And she accepted it.
And rewarded him handsomely. - And made one of his posts her byline. - - - - So learn the parable of the unjust 'paradise' teacher, if your words are not at first accepted, change them until they are.
Then there was a fat man on a motorized scooter, and it tipped over while he was shopping, somewhere between the potato chips and the cottage cheese; then he looked up to the store manager and said - help me! For I am tipped over; and I have four brothers who are fatter than I, and surely the same thing will happen to them! Please send a stockboy to warn them! But the store manager answered him "Nay, for you in your motorized scooter reached for the Lay's on the top shelf out of your good pleasure, and have fallen by your own weight. - - - Verily I say unto you, if you have tipped over reaching for the Lay's potato chips surely they will also....seeing there is such a gulf between you and the potato chips. And if they reach for the potato chips on the upper shelf as you, they will tip over also, even if a stockboy warns them. "

I see what you mean about these parables,....... just tales told out of school.

 

[hopesprings]

There was a certain woman, who had a guy who was trying to help her understand, and the same was accused of
having bad doctrine. And she posted back to him, and said: "How is it I hear these things from thee? Give a further account,
because all you have said thus far I disagree with."
Then the (very wise) guy said within himself - "What more can I say", "Shall I appease her, thus aswaging her wrath,
and be accepted; or shall I continue to tell her the truth?" Then he thought within himself and said - "I know what I will do, I will sell all the
predetermined thoughts I have, and wind up with fluff, that shall appease her." So he went into the market place of ideas, and sold all he had,
and came up with some phoney-baloney rapture doctrine. And he came back and presented it to her. And she accepted it.
And rewarded him handsomely. - And made one of his posts her byline. - - - - So learn the parable of the unjust 'paradise' teacher, if your words are not at first accepted, change them until they are.
Then there was a fat man on a motorized scooter, and it tipped over while he was shopping, somewhere between the potato chips and the cottage cheese; then he looked up to the store manager and said - help me! For I am tipped over; and I have four brothers who are fatter than I, and surely the same thing will happen to them! Please send a stockboy to warn them! But the store manager answered him "Nay, for you in your motorized scooter reached for the Lay's on the top shelf out of your good pleasure, and have fallen by your own weight. - - - Verily I say unto you, if you have tipped over reaching for the Lay's potato chips surely they will also....seeing there is such a gulf between you and the potato chips. And if they reach for the potato chips on the upper shelf as you, they will tip over also, even if a stockboy warns them. "

I see what you mean about these parables,....... just tales told out of school.

BHAHAHAHA! I love it! But please don't give me the fluff...I'm not a big fan of fluff...

 

[iamsoandso]

here is a curious question,,,some think that when we sleep/die,,,we go straight to heaven or hell,,,it is a puzzle to work out,,some say before the cross the dead slept but after the cross we all now go straight to heaven,,,,look at acts 2;27,,"my soul"(Davids),,"holy one"(Christ),,notice David states his body and the Christ would be raised,,,but when?,,,then peter then points out that David's soul(body)was still not raised acts 2;29,,,and that Davids soul nor spirit had either acts 2;34-35,,,,but that Christ had(been raised),,,acts 2;32,,,and also explains when Davids body and spirit would be raised from the sleep acts 2;35,,,,that is until i make thy foes thy footstool,,,all would sleep and not be raised in the Resurrection,,,,except Christ acts 2;31,,so David new he would die,and his body return to the dust(not leave my soul in hell),,but also that the holy one would die but his body would not see corruption(turn to dust),,,and peter pointed to Davids body to show them(you and i) that if David was raised already you would not have his body acts 2;29,,,,,notice that peter's saying that Davids (body and spirit) would be raised (not just a ghost),,the whole David raised incorruptible.
then look at acts 9;40-41,,,,now this is after the cross,,after Christ Resurrection,,,now so then if Tabitha had died and then immediately went to heaven and god thru peter raised her from death,,,?hmmm,,,then if we go to heaven immediately after we die then peter took her out of heaven and set her back into the world,,or she was in heaven,safe from the sin and plucked out of heaven and cast back into the earth where she might again stumble and fall to the death,,but you see she was only asleep,,and for her to be awakened to her own danger(sin),,,that is he said,,"my grace is sufficient,in thy weakness i am strong",,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[kenisyes]

here is a curious question,,,some think that when we sleep/die,,,we go straight to heaven or hell,,,it is a puzzle to work out,,some say before the cross the dead slept but after the cross we all now go straight to heaven,,,,look at acts 2;27,,"my soul"(Davids),,"holy one"(Christ),,notice David states his body and the Christ would be raised,,,but when?,,,then peter then points out that David's soul(body)was still not raised acts 2;29,,,and that Davids soul nor spirit had either acts 2;34-35,,,,but that Christ had(been raised),,,acts 2;32,,,and also explains when Davids body and spirit would be raised from the sleep acts 2;35,,,,that is until i make thy foes thy footstool,,,all would sleep and not be raised in the Resurrection,,,,except Christ acts 2;31,,so David new he would die,and his body return to the dust(not leave my soul in hell),,but also that the holy one would die but his body would not see corruption(turn to dust),,,and peter pointed to Davids body to show them(you and i) that if David was raised already you would not have his body acts 2;29,,,,,notice that peter's saying that Davids (body and spirit) would be raised (not just a ghost),,the whole David raised incorruptible.
then look at acts 9;40-41,,,,now this is after the cross,,after Christ Resurrection,,,now so then if Tabitha had died and then immediately went to heaven and god thru peter raised her from death,,,?hmmm,,,then if we go to heaven immediately after we die then peter took her out of heaven and set her back into the world,,or she was in heaven,safe from the sin and plucked out of heaven and cast back into the earth where she might again stumble and fall to the death,,but you see she was only asleep,,and for her to be awakened to her own danger(sin),,,that is he said,,"my grace is sufficient,in thy weakness i am strong",,,,,,,,,,,,

To the best of my understanding, there are several meanings for heaven. To explain it we need three of them. The state of heaven, the place of the new heavens and new earth, and heaven the throneroom of God.

When we die, our bodies disintegrate in the earth, our spirits return to communion with God, and our souls reside in the state of heaven or hell, which is, for now, either being happy with God's presence if we have followed Jesus or miserable if we have not. This state comes about because our souls either have been formed by our life choices to agree with God's presence or to hate it. God is making a new heavens and a new earth (places for us to live). They will one day descend from heaven (the throneroom of God). We will rise incorruptible and our new bodies, rejoined to our souls and spirits, will either live in the new earth and heaven, or will hate the new (100% Godly) earth, and so resign ourselves to the fire prepared for the wicked angels. This will be the place of heaven. Since God is making it, it is sufficiently available in heaven (throneroom of God) now and Jesus lives there, as may a few other people who ascended with their body - different denominations have different ideas of who these people are.

That's why you can die and go to heaven, and still not be in heaven. The heaven Tabitha went to is the state, the heaven she was not in is the new heaven (place for us) yet to come down from heaven (God's throneroom). Heaven has several meanings as you can see.

 

[RedTent]

Wow! You all have given lots to think about. I had this question all tied up in a box with a nice ribbon on it, now I have to redo.

I had decided that because life after death was spoken of differently in the NT and the OT there was a possibility that Christ changed that when He fulfilled. In the OT it talks of “Gathered with his ancestors” “asleep” but little of being with God. In the NT there is talk of our life after death. I had a picture of all the OT saints living differently after Christ, of going to the heaven that Christ cleared for us through paying for our sins.

I am not a disciple of Swedenborg, but his picture of heaven has always fascinated me. He says that God is light, and souls in heaven are divided by how close they can be to the light.

 

[jb]

Revelation (chapters) 21 & 22, The New (Heavenly) Jerusalem/Paradise, the Christian's eternal home...

 

[hopesprings]

There was a certain woman, who had a guy who was trying to help her understand, and the same was accused of
having bad doctrine. And she posted back to him, and said: "How is it I hear these things from thee? Give a further account,
because all you have said thus far I disagree with."
Then the (very wise) guy said within himself - "What more can I say", "Shall I appease her, thus aswaging her wrath,
and be accepted; or shall I continue to tell her the truth?" Then he thought within himself and said - "I know what I will do, I will sell all the
predetermined thoughts I have, and wind up with fluff, that shall appease her." So he went into the market place of ideas, and sold all he had,
and came up with some phoney-baloney rapture doctrine. And he came back and presented it to her. And she accepted it.
And rewarded him handsomely. - And made one of his posts her byline. - - - - So learn the parable of the unjust 'paradise' teacher, if your words are not at first accepted, change them until they are.
Then there was a fat man on a motorized scooter, and it tipped over while he was shopping, somewhere between the potato chips and the cottage cheese; then he looked up to the store manager and said - help me! For I am tipped over; and I have four brothers who are fatter than I, and surely the same thing will happen to them! Please send a stockboy to warn them! But the store manager answered him "Nay, for you in your motorized scooter reached for the Lay's on the top shelf out of your good pleasure, and have fallen by your own weight. - - - Verily I say unto you, if you have tipped over reaching for the Lay's potato chips surely they will also....seeing there is such a gulf between you and the potato chips. And if they reach for the potato chips on the upper shelf as you, they will tip over also, even if a stockboy warns them. "

I see what you mean about these parables,....... just tales told out of school.

Once upon a time, there lived a very wise man who thought he had everything figured out. So much so, in fact, that he sometimes refused to give thought to anyone else's ideas - no matter the manner in which they were presented. One day, this wise man received a letter from a woman, who asked him "Please sir, explain to me why you believe in such a way." And the man, pleased to be asked, answered honestly and politely. When he was done, the woman replied "But sir, there is error in your reasoning..." and she proceeded to show him how some of what he claimed could not be. The man was shocked! How could this woman dare to question what he believed so desperately to be true? But the woman replied to the man, "Sir, you have two courses of action that you can take. Either you may deny that the proposals I have made are absolutely inaccurate, even though you, yourself, have no proof of this - OR - you may consider my words, which are not offered lightly, and search to see if what I have told you is, in fact, accurate - based on our source of truth. Afterall, my dear sir, there have been many wise men before me who have made the claims that I am making now."

Oh wait...I just thought of one more...

Suppose there was a man who always believed that the world was flat, and no matter the amount of evidence presented to him, he refused to consider the possibility that the earth was round, for he believed that there was no way another person could know what he did not. Eventually, the man died and stood before the throne of the Almighty. After giving praise and worship to the One who was and is and is to come, the Almighty whispered in the man's ear - "There is something I want to show you" and He took the man into the space surrounding the earth. When the man looked down and saw that the earth was, in fact, round, he smiled and said "well, looks like I was wrong afterall."

K..I'm done...for now...hehe

 

[iamsoandso]

To the best of my understanding, there are several meanings for heaven. To explain it we need three of them. The state of heaven, the place of the new heavens and new earth, and heaven the throneroom of God.

When we die, our bodies disintegrate in the earth, our spirits return to communion with God, and our souls reside in the state of heaven or hell, which is, for now, either being happy with God's presence if we have followed Jesus or miserable if we have not. This state comes about because our souls either have been formed by our life choices to agree with God's presence or to hate it. God is making a new heavens and a new earth (places for us to live). They will one day descend from heaven (the throneroom of God). We will rise incorruptible and our new bodies, rejoined to our souls and spirits, will either live in the new earth and heaven, or will hate the new (100% Godly) earth, and so resign ourselves to the fire prepared for the wicked angels. This will be the place of heaven. Since God is making it, it is sufficiently available in heaven (throneroom of God) now and Jesus lives there, as may a few other people who ascended with their body - different denominations have different ideas of who these people are.

That's why you can die and go to heaven, and still not be in heaven. The heaven Tabitha went to is the state, the heaven she was not in is the new heaven (place for us) yet to come down from heaven (God's throneroom). Heaven has several meanings as you can see.

acts 2;34,,,,"for David is not ascended unto the heavens",,as you say many religions have different points of view,,at times i write and post and give no scripture as to the point(just my point of view),,but better that instead of mine own point of view on this important matter i have provided these scriptures and the others in my former post,,that is Christ said john 18;7-15 that the things he would say would be delivered by the comforter to them,,,then in acts 1;1-8 again they were told to wait here for this promise to come,,,then in acts 2;1-4,,,the comforter comes as Christ promised,,,,so it is clear peter an apostle,Christ the lord,,the holy spirit,,the comforter,,are all in agreement on this very matter,,,that is acts 2;34,"david is not ascended unto the heavens",,not singular "heaven",,plural,"heavens",,i.e.1'st heaven,2nd heaven,3rd heaven,ect.,,,so who do we rather believe preachers and their points of view?,,or as i point out the lord,the holy spirit and an apostle who all three state "david is not ascended unto the heavens",,?

 

[kenisyes]

Wow! You all have given lots to think about. I had this question all tied up in a box with a nice ribbon on it, now I have to redo.

I had decided that because life after death was spoken of differently in the NT and the OT there was a possibility that Christ changed that when He fulfilled. In the OT it talks of “Gathered with his ancestors” “asleep” but little of being with God. In the NT there is talk of our life after death. I had a picture of all the OT saints living differently after Christ, of going to the heaven that Christ cleared for us through paying for our sins.

I am not a disciple of Swedenborg, but his picture of heaven has always fascinated me. He says that God is light, and souls in heaven are divided by how close they can be to the light.

About two months ago, the main prophet in my prayer group asked to prepare a teaching on this and my statements here were part of the conclusion. I went through nearly 2000 Scriptures to get to this, and compared a lot of Greek and Hebrew sources. Your old picture is certainly correct, the only difference is when would they be bodily in heaven. The difference now is certainly in their connection to God, through Jesus is way different than just through the Law, knowing some day the Messiah would come.

Swdenborg's definition you quote is correct for our spirits, since classically our spirits are made of fire. Your spirit follows your new body/soul after you rise, so this is a great symbol even for your body. Related statement: one way the Jews understand Adam and Eve is to say that before the fall, they were balls of light. I understand that to mean, they perceived themselves as spirits, not even considering their bodies.

 

[kenisyes]

acts 2;34,,,,"for David is not ascended unto the heavens",,as you say many religions have different points of view,,at times i write and post and give no scripture as to the point(just my point of view),,but better that instead of mine own point of view on this important matter i have provided these scriptures and the others in my former post,,that is Christ said john 18;7-15 that the things he would say would be delivered by the comforter to them,,,then in acts 1;1-8 again they were told to wait here for this promise to come,,,then in acts 2;1-4,,,the comforter comes as Christ promised,,,,so it is clear peter an apostle,Christ the lord,,the holy spirit,,the comforter,,are all in agreement on this very matter,,,that is acts 2;34,"david is not ascended unto the heavens",,not singular "heaven",,plural,"heavens",,i.e.1'st heaven,2nd heaven,3rd heaven,ect.,,,so who do we rather believe preachers and their points of view?,,or as i point out the lord,the holy spirit and an apostle who all three state "david is not ascended unto the heavens",,?

I said in this post we need to use three of the possible meanings of heaven to understand this matter. In another post, regarding a different matter, I stated that there are at least 3 Hebrew heavens. The "state" of heaven is not one of the classical heavens of the Hebrews, of which there are 7. In Acts, Peter is speaking to Hebrews, so he used their definition. There is no contradiction between David not being in any of the classical 7 Hebrew heavens (the statement in Acts) and David being in the "state" of heaven, since the "state" of heaven is an added meaning from English, not part of the Hebrew heavens. The Bible would call this state of heaven, not heaven as we do, but rather, being "asleep in the Lord" or some such thing. The rest of the verse makes it clear that David has reason to be sleeping in the Lord, in peaceful expectation of the Messiah coming from His loins.

 

[Bowman]

Simple question: What can the Bible teach us about Paradise? Is it real, is it symbolic? Where is it? What is it? Is it the same in Islam as in the Bible?

I will contribute that the word is a Hebrew word adopted into English. The Talmud speaks of the Pardes.

Paradise, Heaven, New Jerusalem, City, etc, etc all refer to the same place...the abode of the Righteous in which God's Elect can be in the direct presence of the Triune Creator God.

While Islam has their own slant to their scriptures, the Koran most definitely confirms the concept of Heaven as described within the pages of the Biblical Book of Revelation.....the description, who resides there, how to make entrance, etc, etc...

 

[Katy-follower]

But I understand this account (luke 16:19-31) to be a parable

This is definitely not a parable. Christ never used specific names of people in His parables and in this story He clearly mentions Lazarus, so it was an actual event. Christ does not lie. Although it's not a parable there is much to learn from it.

I am not sure where Abraham's bosom was?

We know hell is a pit and that the rich man "lifted up his eyes," so he was looking UP to Lazarus.