Paul handed them over to Satan

[Enow]

My friend, Pamelasv, made this question that I consider very useful:

• “...keeping faith and a good concience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1.19-20).

So how does Paul have authority to hand someone over to Satan? Kick them out of the church? I assume being handed over to Satan is a form of discipline? Tho I'm sure they weren't entirely handed over. If he had the need to do something to teach them a lesson, sounds like legitimate children.

They were excommunicated from fellowship and thus handed over to Satan in that manner so that as Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:20 by your quote, that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

Those that contend for that to mean "put to death" by believers themselves forgets that there is no point of return from learning the lesson that way. And hardly handing them over to Satan if believers are the ones doing the killing.

There is another reference to support what Paul is meaning by your reference.

1 Corinthians 5:1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.[SUP]2 [/SUP]And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.............

To make no mistake that this was not about killing the sinning believer, but excommunicating them from fellowship....

1 Corinthians 5:[SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.[SUP]11 [/SUP]But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.[SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?[SUP]13 [/SUP]But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

In 2 Corinthians 2nd chapter, Paul speaks of the one that was excommunicated, but whom had repented, desiring to be let back in and Paul spoke to that church to let him back in for he was sorry for his sin and had asked for forgiveness.

So giving them unto Satan is for the purpose of leading them unto repentance; as God will do at the pre tribulational rapture event when the Bridegroom comes and leaves behind those not abiding in Him, but found in iniquity and thus given unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh; physical death, for the duration of the coming great tribulation until they be resurrected again after the great tribulation to be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House because of His seal.

 

[CLee622]

The reason we can welcome people into what we think is our circle of believers then find ourselves deceived or now know a person who says they left faith is because we cannot see hearts. God is not surprised or moved when someone does something we didn't think they'd do.. many are called few are chosen.

Chosen implies we werent the choosers. When we stand in front of Him in His glory we will have nothing to stand on but Him. If we stand not on Him alone - we will fall.

 

[Enow]

Saying that salvation can be discarded is not the same as saying it must be continually earned and kept through works.

If the Gospel is that we are saved by relationship with God through Christ, all relationships are voluntary and can be ended by either person.

If the Gospel is that we are saved by a contractual obligation that does not depend on people's hearts, well, what's a marriage without love?

The Old Covenant was like a marriage covenant, but not the New Covenant.

The New Covenant gives a race for saved believers to run by faith by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race as He will finish His work in us so we can rest in Him & all His promises to us.

There is the elect that abides in Him by faith that will be received by Him when the Bridegroom comes, and there are those that are Christ's at His coming, including the saints that did not depart from iniquity that got left behind; as in excommunicated from fellowship at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. That also includes former believers.

So that is why we are to encourage one another in trusting Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us get ready so that we may be found abiding in Him to be received as vessels unto honor in His House which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

This is why even former believers are called to go before that throne of grace for help in seeing the truth from the lies that overthrew their faith to stop believing in Him so that they may be received as vessels unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]18 [/SUP]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.[SUP]20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.[SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

In other words, Jesus shall lose none of all the Father has given Him, including the ones left behind. John 6:39

Here is a prophecy in Psalm 89 of the New Covenant whereas the Father will give stripes to those left behind as mirroring what Jesus has said in Luke 12:40-49.

Psalm 89:[SUP]28 [/SUP]My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.[SUP]29 [/SUP]His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.[SUP]30 [/SUP]If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;[SUP]31 [/SUP]If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;[SUP]32 [/SUP]Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.[SUP]33 [/SUP]Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.[SUP]34 [/SUP]My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.[SUP]35 [/SUP]Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.[SUP]36 [/SUP]His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.[SUP]37 [/SUP]It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Luke 12:[SUP]40 [/SUP]Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?[SUP]42 [/SUP]And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?[SUP]43 [/SUP]Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.[SUP]44 [/SUP]Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.[SUP]45 [/SUP]But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;[SUP]46 [/SUP]The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.[SUP]47 [/SUP]And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.[SUP]48 [/SUP]But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.[SUP]49 [/SUP]I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

So God will excommunicate unrepentant believers that live in sin or in religious works of iniquity that deny Him at the re trib rapture event when God shall judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) but we can trust Him to do a good job in keeping the souls of those saints left behind that shall suffer the coming fire on the earth & the subsequent coming great tribulation. What the church fail to do, God will do in leading unrepentant believers to repentance for He will lose none.

1 Corinthians 5:[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[p_rehbein]

uh, er, hmm, lessee.........

When God gave someone over to............what was their judgment?

Romans 1:32) [FONT=&quot]Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[/FONT]When writing to the Corinthians, what was the judgement Paul dispensed when he "gave such a one over?"

[h=1]1 Corinthians
5[/h]
1[FONT=&quot] .) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.[/FONT]
2[FONT=&quot] .) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.[/FONT]
3[FONT=&quot] .) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,[/FONT]
4[FONT=&quot] .) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,[/FONT]
5[FONT=&quot] .) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[/FONT]What are the "wages of sin?"

Romans 6:23) [FONT=&quot] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[/FONT]What is the penalty for blasphemy?

Matthew 12:31) [FONT=&quot]Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.[/FONT]
32[FONT=&quot] .) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

[/FONT]If such as these mentioned in 1st Timothy are driven out of the Church, do you believe they STILL received eternal life? If not, what was the "penalty" they inherited?

....what?

Being handed over to satan is a form of exclusion from the christian community, not death penalty...

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[GuessWho]

If such as these mentioned in 1st Timothy are driven out of the Church, do you believe they STILL received eternal life? If not, what was the "penalty" they inherited?

Yes, they can still receive eternal life. In 1 Corinthians there is also a case of someone being delivered unto satan and we can clearly see that there is still hope for salvation: but a salvation through suffering.

 

[so-jesus-e-deus]

If such as these mentioned in 1st Timothy are driven out of the Church, do you believe they STILL received eternal life? If not, what was the "penalty" they inherited?

[FONT=&quot]After much thought, I came to the conclusion that follows.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]“Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot](1Timothy 1.19,20)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here we have Hymenaeus and Alexander. Who are these two comrades?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Many think that this Alexander is the same as quoted in the passages below:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]“The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:” [/FONT][FONT=&quot](2Timothy 4.14)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Certainly not! Note that this Alexander, apart from being distinguished by his profession [/FONT][FONT=&quot](coppersmith)[/FONT][FONT=&quot], lives in Troas.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]“And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre. And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not. And certain of the chief of Asia, which were his friends, sent unto him, desiring him that he would not adventure himself into the theatre. Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused: and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together. And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander beckoned with the hand, and would have made his defence unto the people. But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Acts 19.29-34)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As for this Alexander, this yes I believe that it is the same individual. After all, they both live in Ephesus. It is quite probable that, in Acts, Alexander was trying to undermine Paul by inciting the multitude against him [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Alexander was not, after all, one of Paul's disciples)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]However, afterwards he must have converted and later blasphemed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As for Hymenaeus, we can read about him below:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]“And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot](2Timothy 2.17,18)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Note how, after being delivered to Satan, he contracted gangrene. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]This reminds us of what happened to Job:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Job 1.6-10)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]“Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Job 2.1-7)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here we see the Eternal delivering Job and his goods into the hands of Ha-Satan. When the Eternal delivered Job's goods to Ha-Satan, Ha-Satan destroyed them [/FONT][FONT=&quot](including his children)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. When the Eternal delivered Job to Ha-Satan, he filled him with tumors from his feet to the top of his head.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Therefore, to deliver someone to Ha-Satan is a power that the Eternal has given to His Church of power, in the name of Jesus, to deliver someone to Ha-Satan so that their physical body may suffer some serious illness and, with this, their flesh Corrupted) be destroyed so that the spirit of this individual will be saved when Jesus comes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Notice, however, that this act of discipline is aimed at the recovery of the sinner. It's not an act of revenge.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]“For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot](1Corinthians 5.3-5)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The question comes: but how is it possible that delivering someone to Ha-Satan can bring salvation?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I struggled to understand this. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]See what Isaiah says:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]“Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Isaiah 1.4,5)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Note that when the individual is rebellious, there is no repair for him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]However, for the one who really is of Jesus, such a surrender to Ha-Satan promotes even if it occurred to Job: a living encounter with the Eternal Himself. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hence Paul says:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]“Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot](2Corinthians 7.9,10)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]May Jesus help us to have humility so that we willingly accept the correction of the Eternal so that we may enjoy the abundant life that Jesus promised [/FONT][FONT=&quot](John 10.10)[/FONT][FONT=&quot], namely, a full life where we have all that is necessary for us And to those whom the Eternal has given us [/FONT][FONT=&quot](without lacking anything - Psalm 34: 9, Matthew 6:33, Ephesians 1: 3, Philippians 4: 11-13, 2 Peter 1.3)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

 

[sharkwhales]

This comment is so refreshing! It's been a while since someone mentioned the most important and most ignored thing in christianity: love. Most of the debates on the Bible Discussion Forum revolve around faith vs works. Not one word about love.

Maybe it's because, in addition to being part of the best thing, love is also the scariest thing.

To say it's all faith is to say it's all about God. To say it's all works is to say it's all about man. To say it's a relationship between God and man requires we open up. It's as if God is asking us to dance and we are tempted to say no one is good enough to dance with us, or we are tempted to say we aren't good enough to dance. Either answer would be a refusal to dance. A person who only senses their dance partner, or only senses themselves, either way is a bad dancer, because you have to feel yourself together. You have to feel an 'Us'... and then you create an expression that is partly you but also greater than you.

'[FONT=&quot] I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I in them and you in me — so that they may be brought to complete unity'[/FONT]

 

[Zmouth]

The question comes: but how is it possible that delivering someone to Ha-Satan can bring salvation?

A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies. Prov 14:25
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:26
Since faith comes by hearing consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else." Deut 4:39

I struggled to understand this..

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: Genesis 6:3

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[p_rehbein]

Yes, they can still receive eternal life. In 1 Corinthians there is also a case of someone being delivered unto satan and we can clearly see that there is still hope for salvation: but a salvation through suffering.

Should have asked "did they?" Not could they........big difference there.......however, as these two were kicked out for blasphemy, I disagree, for Scripture says blasphemy is the unpardonable sin. Either that, or Christ lied to us.