Please Explain If God Lied Here.

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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,143
612
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Alabama
#81
Can you give some specific examples please. I do appreciate your inquiry.
Let us take just the example of Abraham and Sarah's Hagar option recorded in Genesis 16. Here are just three generalizations that I have pulled out of my study of this narrative. There are many more that are present but this will give you an idea.
1. Discontinuity between the word of God and human experience always originates in the mind of man.
2. Circumstances do not dictate outcome.
3. Time, physics, and physiology are always subordinate to the will of God.


I. The Hagar Option

A. The discontinuity dilemma – Abraham's and Sarah's decision in this matter is an attempt to fill a gap or void in the logical sequence of their situation.
1. What is the given expectation? It is the promise of God - “You shall have an heir out of your own body.”
2. What is the logical sequence for producing an heir? Abraham and Sarah + fertility +time = desired result – an heir.
3. What are the discontinuities in this logical sequence?
a. They are too old. He is 85 and she is 75.
b. Sarah is too barren, 11:30
These two factors represent a physiological discontinuity.
c. Time is against them – This is a discontinuity of physics. We have a tendency make the same mistake in measuring the promises of God against the metric of time.
4. What is the only element of continuity? It is the power of God to overturn the limitations of the physics and their physiology.
B. Time as a contingency element
Quite often I think, we expect God to respond to our desires within tour perception of time. We tend to hold God accountable to time and regard the faithfulness of God as time contingent. “If he hasn't answered my prayer by now, he isn't going too.” This certainly appears to have been Abraham's reasoning. God has not acted on the matter so he feel it is up to him to act.
1. Time has relevance only within the human analysis of the situation.
2. Time is a function of God. God is not accountable to time. God responds in time but not to time. Time responds to the will of God.
3. Man, on the other hand, responds to time independently of the will of God. This is what Abraham and Sarah did. Because of the perceived limitations of the time element they interject into the situation, they attempt to manipulate the promise of God in such a way that it will harmonize with their understanding of physics and physiology. They then operate on the basis of the consistency of these two fields of discourse constraint. Time + physics + physiology = a discontinuity between the word of God and the circumstances. They then respond to the discontinuity through human resolution. Why does Hagar seem to satisfy the human resolution? Because she fills the gap in the logical sequence.
a. She is young enough for child bearing.
b. She is not barren
c. The time factor is satisfied – they can have the child now.
But, it does not satisfy the demands of faith. Control of the situation is NEVER allowed to reside within the human arena. God always reserves the right of contravention – to act against all limitations of physics and physiology.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,685
13,139
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#82
Begininning to die that day, and dieing that day are two different things. He didn't say you will start to die, he said you will surely die. Did God have a lack of communication skills?
this is the same God who speaks of the future as though it had already happened. for example:

(as it is written: “I have made thee a father of many nations”), in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which are not, as though they were.
(Romans 4:17)

- here Paul is quoting Genesis 17:5, where the Lord changed Abraham's name, and spoke in the past tense of what He had promised to do but hadn't yet happened. this linguistic mode is called sometimes the "prophetic perfect tense"

this also is how it is said "
even while we were dead, He made us alive" (Ephesians 2:5)
 

Pozessed

Senior Member
May 2, 2014
192
0
16
#83
this is the same God who speaks of the future as though it had already happened. for example:

(as it is written: “I have made thee a father of many nations”), in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which are not, as though they were.
(Romans 4:17)

- here Paul is quoting Genesis 17:5, where the Lord changed Abraham's name, and spoke in the past tense of what He had promised to do but hadn't yet happened. this linguistic mode is called sometimes the "prophetic perfect tense"

this also is how it is said "
even while we were dead, He made us alive" (Ephesians 2:5)
Interesting thought. I don't quite see the connection, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
 
May 3, 2013
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#84
Hi posssed!

Are you lying or kidding?

each minute, when I´m separeted from GOD, I´m dead... So guess who is lying!
 
Sep 10, 2013
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#85
It does not mean conscious separation from God, it means unconscious death.

We are not talking about being separated from God and in a non communal state, we are talking about ceasing to exist. Death means ceasing to exist.
And yet, the death that Adam had experienced first, was that of being cast away from Paradise; in other words, He lost the communion with God. He was outside of God.
In christianity, death (of the body) is not extinction of life; atheists believe that once you die, you cease to exist. We believe that you continue to exist, but outside of God. This is the tragedy of a christian - being outside of God, being into "the darkeness from outside" (Matthew 25, 30).

The death of being separated from God is more horrible than that of the body.
 
P

pastac

Guest
#86
dead is dead! dead to sin or dead from sin, dead physically or dead naturally, or dead spiritually the implications are the same Dead! yet to be resurrected from the dead only happens when we realize we were crucified with Christ on that cross therefore giving us back access that we lost through Adams original sin. I did not say Eve on purpose for they were one flesh. Death that separated us from God was the death that began with sin. To argue anything else is a dead thought for we are now alive in him who was resurrected from the dead and we along with him. God never lies! At least my God doesn't. That little g god so many refer to will.
 
May 3, 2013
8,719
75
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#87
And yet, the death that Adam had experienced first, was that of being cast away from Paradise; in other words, He lost the communion with God. He was outside of God.
In christianity, death (of the body) is not extinction of life; atheists believe that once you die, you cease to exist. We believe that you continue to exist, but outside of God. This is the tragedy of a christian - being outside of God, being into "the darkeness from outside" (Matthew 25, 30).

The death of being separated from God is more horrible than that of the body.
That´s why we all Christian call for redemption.

We´re isolated from real truth (His truth), lame to walk a complete life, because we were planned for another perfect living and that is not a idealization or sophism...