Pope Says Having A Personal Relationship With Jesus Is Dangerous And Harmful
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For the sake of clarity, I want to add something more to this affirmation I made.
This way of existence to which we are called is, in fact, our true, authentic reality and nature. The model of love and unity of the Holy Trinity is not an outside given to which we must submit. It is our real existence! Whenever we egocentrically close ourselves, we sin, because we move from who we truly are. Sin doesn't allow you to love the other one, but only yourself, thus leading you to perdition.
There is this Greek word "perihoresis" to which I didn't find an English equivalent. I'll try to explain it. Perihoresis refers to the reciprocity between the Persons of the Holy Trinity, to their unity and also their "threeness" (I'm sorry, I am making up words, but I'm sure you all get me).
So, how does this perihoresis reflect in human existence? An example that comes to mind is the perihoresis between husband and wife (but it equally applies to the community of christians too). Man and woman become one body through their union in marriage. In other words, if someone hurts my husband, I must love him so much and be in him so much that I feel the person who hurt my husband actually hurt me. Or, if my husband experience joy I must experience his joy as if it was mine.
If you fail in something, I mustn't secretly enjoy that you failed (like a lot of times, unfortunately, we do); but I must feel your failure as if it was mine. And if you succeed in something, I mustn't feel sadness and envy that you succeeded. I must live your success as if it was mine. Your success is not a threat to me. We aren't in competition. We must promote one another.
For this kind of love... sacrifice is the key.
This way of existence to which we are called is, in fact, our true, authentic reality and nature. The model of love and unity of the Holy Trinity is not an outside given to which we must submit. It is our real existence! Whenever we egocentrically close ourselves, we sin, because we move from who we truly are. Sin doesn't allow you to love the other one, but only yourself, thus leading you to perdition.
There is this Greek word "perihoresis" to which I didn't find an English equivalent. I'll try to explain it. Perihoresis refers to the reciprocity between the Persons of the Holy Trinity, to their unity and also their "threeness" (I'm sorry, I am making up words, but I'm sure you all get me).
So, how does this perihoresis reflect in human existence? An example that comes to mind is the perihoresis between husband and wife (but it equally applies to the community of christians too). Man and woman become one body through their union in marriage. In other words, if someone hurts my husband, I must love him so much and be in him so much that I feel the person who hurt my husband actually hurt me. Or, if my husband experience joy I must experience his joy as if it was mine.
If you fail in something, I mustn't secretly enjoy that you failed (like a lot of times, unfortunately, we do); but I must feel your failure as if it was mine. And if you succeed in something, I mustn't feel sadness and envy that you succeeded. I must live your success as if it was mine. Your success is not a threat to me. We aren't in competition. We must promote one another.
For this kind of love... sacrifice is the key.
Btw, I think the title of the thread is inaccurate based on what was written in the article.
I think he makes a valid point, though I probably wouldn't agree with his ideas about what constitutes 'the church' or the extent to which a relationship with God is 'mediated' by the church.
I don't see where the Bible equates the Gospel with having a 'personal relationship with Jesus', and it irks me to hear preachers who try to evangelize who say phrases like that, but leave out the Biblical Gospel, not mentioning the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
I think evangelicals in the US tend to overuse 'personal.' Using 'personal' in 'Personal Savior' is meaningless gobbledygook to unbelievers if you don't explain why you are using it. I suppose some people think of Christ as a generic 'Savior' of the world, but don't realize they, as individuals, need saving. Maybe it's okay to use the phrase if you explain it. But I think a lot of evangelicals get programmed with this idea of a 'personal relationship' with a 'personal Savior' and forget that they need fellowship with other believers and that God ministers to individuals through other believers. God is forming together a body, a bride for his son. I am not the church. I am a part of it. As an individual, you are not the bride of Christ all by yourself, but only a member of the larger whole.
I think he makes a valid point, though I probably wouldn't agree with his ideas about what constitutes 'the church' or the extent to which a relationship with God is 'mediated' by the church.
I don't see where the Bible equates the Gospel with having a 'personal relationship with Jesus', and it irks me to hear preachers who try to evangelize who say phrases like that, but leave out the Biblical Gospel, not mentioning the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
I think evangelicals in the US tend to overuse 'personal.' Using 'personal' in 'Personal Savior' is meaningless gobbledygook to unbelievers if you don't explain why you are using it. I suppose some people think of Christ as a generic 'Savior' of the world, but don't realize they, as individuals, need saving. Maybe it's okay to use the phrase if you explain it. But I think a lot of evangelicals get programmed with this idea of a 'personal relationship' with a 'personal Savior' and forget that they need fellowship with other believers and that God ministers to individuals through other believers. God is forming together a body, a bride for his son. I am not the church. I am a part of it. As an individual, you are not the bride of Christ all by yourself, but only a member of the larger whole.
Having relation with Jesus is saver than having relationship with catholic church.
Jesus not only want us to have relation with Him, He want more, He want us abide in Him. To be one with Him.
John 15
[SUP]4[/SUP] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5[/SUP] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6[/SUP] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jesus not only want us to have relation with Him, He want more, He want us abide in Him. To be one with Him.
John 15
[SUP]4[/SUP] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5[/SUP] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6[/SUP] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
B
Pope Says Having A Personal Relationship With Jesus Is Dangerous And Harmful
Well it is.... to the PAPACY!!!!
Well it is.... to the PAPACY!!!!
The Pope is specifically talking about those who say, "I have my Bible and my beliefs, I don't need fellowship, instruction, or correction outside of my bible and my beliefs." This is a dangerous belief. This is the belief system that created the JWs and the Mormons. This is the belief system that created Arius and Marcion. This is the belief system that created Charles Manson and Reverend Moon. Its an isolationist belief. God has not called us into a relationship with Him devoid of a relationship with the Body of Christ. God has bound us to Himself and each other. Christ said that we would be ONE fold. One meaning all of us together, not one as individuals. I agree with the Pope said. Its sad that people need to add to what he said without actually reading or understanding what he is saying.
V
This is typical Catholic teaching. I experienced it myself. They teach that Christ is an riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. They cannot know Christ, and do not even believe that Paul met Christ, despite the clear teaching of the Bible that he met him on the road to Damascus and was saved through that encounter.
I have no tolerance for Catholic heresy, but hasten to add that I know Cahtolics who believe they are saved by faith through grace alone by the work of Christ on the cross. Regardless of what their heretical theologians teach, there are millions of Catholics who truthfully know Jesus Christ.
I have no tolerance for Catholic heresy, but hasten to add that I know Cahtolics who believe they are saved by faith through grace alone by the work of Christ on the cross. Regardless of what their heretical theologians teach, there are millions of Catholics who truthfully know Jesus Christ.
This was one of the more disturbing parts of the article for me...
"I always remember the nun who taught me catechism. I know she's in heaven because she was a holy woman," he said.
So we are to link up with Mother Church which teaches salvation by works??
Instead, what about something like "I know she is in heaven because of her faith in Jesus Who suffered and died for her and her good works doubly assures me of that?
"I always remember the nun who taught me catechism. I know she's in heaven because she was a holy woman," he said.
So we are to link up with Mother Church which teaches salvation by works??
Instead, what about something like "I know she is in heaven because of her faith in Jesus Who suffered and died for her and her good works doubly assures me of that?
Title of Thread.."Pope Says Having A Personal Relationship With Jesus Is Dangerous And Harmful"
What the pope said in the article,..."Pope Francis described as "dangerous" the temptation to believe that one can have "a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the church."
What Scripture says... "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, "
(1Ti 2:5)
The title is a twist, true, but so is the pope's words when compared to Scripture.
What the pope said in the article,..."Pope Francis described as "dangerous" the temptation to believe that one can have "a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the church."
What Scripture says... "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, "
(1Ti 2:5)
The title is a twist, true, but so is the pope's words when compared to Scripture.
Would you prefer "the correction of the Church" "the guidance of the Church". This isn't about mediating between God and man, but correction of a false teaching, which comes through teachers, elders, etc. who are representatives of the Church's teachings. Now I admit its a very Catholic view. However, the point is that the Pope is saying that it is dangerous to claim personal relationship with Christ without fellowship or willingness to submit to the wisdom of elders.