Postmillennialism: The true hope for Israel?

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1still_waters

Guest
#1
#1
Ok I'm Amill, but many say I'm postmill. I think the only difference between amill and postmill is a sunny disposition. Postmills see more of the world converting to Jesus before Jesus returns. Amills don't have as sunny an outlook. Yet both sides believe that the 1000 years isn't a literal 1000, and Jesus comes back at the end of it. Please don't turn this thread into a debate over the literalness of the 1000 years.

This video is good food for thought on what kind of a perspective actually gives more hope to the Jews.

[video=youtube;FddMMDF0Q_4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FddMMDF0Q_4[/video]

Postmillennialism: The true hope for Israel | #Edified | Gary DeMar - YouTube
 
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HEIsRiSen

Senior Member
#5
Feb 4, 2013
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What exactly is it that people think suggests that we are under the millennial reign of Christ? I find it hard to believe that satan is being bound right now when I take a look at the world around me, people are being deceived and the world gets more wicked everyday. I just don't see how the amillennialism and postmillennialism teachings hold any water.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#6
#6
HEIsRiSen said:
What exactly is it that people think suggests that we are under the millennial reign of Christ? I find it hard to believe that satan is being bound right now when I take a look at the world around me, people are being deceived and the world gets more wicked everyday. I just don't see how the amillennialism and postmillennialism teachings holds any water.
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Because in Rev 20, there isn't anything listed about the Earth being some perfect place during the millennial reign. That's an understanding that's imposed on the text. It's actually not in the text. There is nothing in the text of Rev 20 to suggest that there won't be any wickedness in the millennial reign.

Why do we think Jesus is currently reigning now in his kingdom?

Well...here are some verses.

Matthew 28
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

1 Cor 15

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Thencomes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For “He has put all things under His feet.”[SUP][a][/SUP] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.



Hebrews 2
[SUP]8 [/SUP]You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

I find it hard to believe that satan is being bound right now when I take a look at the world around me, people are being deceived and the world gets more wicked everyday.
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There is enough evil within sinful fallen man to account for all the evil you see.

James 1
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Wars, fights, murder are linked to basic human sinful desires.

James 4
4 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires forpleasure that war in your members? [SUP]2 [/SUP]You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet[SUP][a][/SUP] you do not have because you do not ask. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#7
#7
Where is Jesus our high priest sitting?
He's sitting on a throne.

Hebrews 4
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
 
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HEIsRiSen

Senior Member
#8
Feb 4, 2013
487
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#8
1still_waters said:
Because in Rev 20, there isn't anything listed about the Earth being some perfect place during the millennial reign. That's an understanding that's imposed on the text. It's actually not in the text. There is nothing in the text of Rev 20 to suggest that there won't be any wickedness in the millennial reign.
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You're right that nothing suggests perfection, but it DOES say that there will not be any deception until the millennium is fulfilled. Yet, there IS deception (possibly more than there has ever been) and it is spreading like wildfire through the nations.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
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HEIsRiSen

Senior Member
#9
Feb 4, 2013
487
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#9
Satan is in full effect deceiving the nations, anybody who knows the Word can see that. IMO we either haven't reached the millennium yet, or we are in the little season that satan has been loosed.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#10
#10
HEIsRiSen said:
You're right that nothing suggests perfection, but it DOES say that there will not be any deception until the millennium is fulfilled. Yet, there IS deception (possibly more than there has ever been) and it is spreading like wildfire through the nations.
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You need to look at what specific deception the context is talking about.
It's not talking about deception in general.
It's speaking of a very specific type of deception, that the devil has been trying to accomplish since the beginning of time.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[SUP][b][/SUP] the beast and the false prophetare. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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The deception is about the devil leading the entire world into a final battle against God.
That's the deception he's been trying to do since day one.
That's the deception he is ''bound'' from doing.

Keep in mind, the biblical concept of Satan being bound doesn't always mean he can't do anything. It can mean he's bound from doing a specific thing.

Remember in Job, he was bound from taking Job's life.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
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The context of Rev 20 suggests it's a limited binding of Satan, to prevent him from doing one type of deception. That being deceiving the nations into that final battle against God.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#11
#11
So the full context of Rev 20 is one of Jesus ruling and reigning as his kingdom expands. Satan is bound from deceiving the nations into that final battle as Jesus rules, reigns, and grows his kingdom through the saving of souls. (Post mills will say this also includes radically changing the world.) Eventually Satan is unbound and tries to deceive the nations against God in a final battle, but king Jesus who has been ruling all along, crushes him big time.
 
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HEIsRiSen

Senior Member
#12
Feb 4, 2013
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#12
Based on the placement of this verse, would you say that it suggests that Christians are being killed during the millennial reign? Indeed their are thousands being beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This part does seem to support the amillennialist view. Hmmmm
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#13
#13
HEIsRiSen said:
Based on the placement of this verse, would you say that it suggests that Christians are being killed during the millennial reign? Indeed their are thousands being beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This part does seem to support the amillennialist view. Hmmmm
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Yup, there was intense Roman persecution of Christians before Revelation was written and during the time it was read.
It was written to specific people, at a specific time, to tell of a specific soon to come event.
It was meant to provide edification, instruction, encouragement.

The automatic response from some will now be..."Well if it was written to them, does that mean it has no application for us?"

That's a misguided reaction to me.
Of course we can draw application off of it.
There are past events in the Bible that already happened, and we have no problem drawing present day applications to it.
Unfortunately some think Revelation can't have any application purposes to us today if the events in it already happened.
These same people will then turn to OT events and draw tons of application from it. lol
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#14
#14
HEIsRiSen said:
Based on the placement of this verse, would you say that it suggests that Christians are being killed during the millennial reign? Indeed their are thousands being beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This part does seem to support the amillennialist view. Hmmmm
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Also the concept of believers ruling already with Jesus is in scripture.

Ephesians 2
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP]even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), [SUP]6 [/SUP]and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


Colossians 1
[SUP]13 [/SUP]He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, [SUP]14 [/SUP]in whom we have redemption through His blood,[SUP][c][/SUP] the forgiveness of sins.
 
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HEIsRiSen

Senior Member
#15
Feb 4, 2013
487
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#15
The only thing left now is to debate whether the 1000 years is literal or not :p
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#16
#16
blah blah ....but i only meant that figuratively:p
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#17
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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#17
I really like Gary DaMar, he's a really smart guy...Smarter then I...but what gets me is that he seems to always suggest that NT books have little or no application for us today.

Anyway, Good post again 1Still...
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#18
#18
Bookends said:
I really like Gary DaMar, he's a really smart guy...Smarter then I...but what gets me is that he seems to always suggest that NT books have little or no application for us today.

Anyway, Good post again 1Still...
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Yeah, as a theonomist, he has to emphasize that the moral OT law applies to govern life and society today.
 
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GRA

Guest
#19
#19
HEIsRiSen said:
Based on the placement of this verse, would you say that it suggests that Christians are being killed during the millennial reign? [NO] Indeed their are thousands being beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God. [Yes - before the Second Coming of Christ]

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This part does seem to support the amillennialist view. Hmmmm
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The event time-frame of this verse is POST-tribulation PRE-millennium.

:)
 
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