Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

[PlainWord]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[SUP]
[/SUP]I take verses 15 and 16 as one thought, as the dead in Christ will rise first, just like the resurrection at the crucifixion of Christ, but not the same event.
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage is connected with


1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (KJV)
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Yes, the passages are connected and refer to the same event - The coming of God to judge the world at the end of the age/world. Both passages tie directly to 2 Peter 3:

3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,

4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His (GOD's) coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

See, no resurrection, no rapture yet as the fathers are still asleep.

5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,

6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord (GOD, not Jesus) will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God,

(see it is God coming, not Jesus in all this context)

because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Words in the Bible have clear meanings. "Last" really means last. It will be the final trumpet ever blown during the history of this world. The Lord God himself will blow this trumpet and summons all the dead in the earth and will bring with him all the souls remaining in heaven. It is at this point that the "Dead in Christ" are risen and given glorified bodies.

These glorified bodies are for use in the new heaven and new earth. "Corruptible puts on incorruption, and mortal puts on immortality." For this old earth is corrupt and the new body shall not dwell on the old earth. I know, it is a difficult concept to grasp having lived our whole lives thinking these passages were about the return of Jesus and a so-called Rapture. I fear most Christians will refuse to accept this.

 

[just-me]

Yes, the passages are connected and refer to the same event - The coming of God to judge the world at the end of the age/world. Both passages tie directly to 2 Peter 3:

Could a person incorporate this verse?

Luke 21:22-24 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Was Jesus speaking about the writings of the Old Testament, (fsince that is all they had when He said this) or was He speaking about the fulfillment of the book of Revelation which had not been written yet?

 

[just-me]

Two things must be taken into consideration when talking abut the resurrections (plural) in the last days. One resurrection takes place before the 1000 years and the other after the 100 years.

Note the following verses.

Revelation 20:4-10 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[GRA]

No my dear friend. With utmost respect, not true!!! I'm not trying to boast but I do believe I have found it, the real answer that cannot be refuted. Jesus returns at or just after the 6th BOWL (not seal). This is the only time He comes. He doesn't come before and he doesn't come after. When He comes to earth again, He comes to stay. There is NO RAPTURE prior to when he comes at the 6th Bowl (not seal) and this rapture is a limited rapture.

When Jesus comes, he comes to stay. I believe I have concrete scriptural proof, at least I can't find a flaw now. Once you hear it, you will agree - providing you are willing to have eyes open and to see. No games or tricks. It is all in the scriptures and it is all in plain language. It is that solid.

I told you on another post that I found the key passage. This passage unlocks everything once you understand it. Not meaning to play games but this is BIG - HUGE!!! I gave you my personal email GRA. I am looking to collaborate with someone as I want to blow the cover off this thing. I'm not sure I want to share this with everyone. This truth will prove the teaching of virtually every church (certainly all the ones I know) 180 degrees wrong about the Rapture and most of their end times teaching. Once told, it will be nearly impossible for everyone, but the truly blind, not to see. It really is that big and that concrete.

Every single TV evangelist has it wrong, dead wrong. I'm still in shock about it myself. Can you put away your doubts GRA long enough to hear the rest of what was revealed? Email me if you can.

I am certainly willing to hear what you have to say. If you are saying that you only want to tell me - and, not everyone ( by posting in this thread ) - then, send me a CC mail PM.

 

[PlainWord]

I am certainly willing to hear what you have to say. If you are saying that you only want to tell me - and, not everyone ( by posting in this thread ) - then, send me a CC mail PM.

I told everyone on the Olivet thread. I could have emailed you personally I guess but I'm not sure how that works and besides, I feel so blessed that the Lord has given me at least some insight into this and that I should share it.

 

[PlainWord]

Could a person incorporate this verse?

Luke 21:22-24 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Was Jesus speaking about the writings of the Old Testament, (fsince that is all they had when He said this) or was He speaking about the fulfillment of the book of Revelation which had not been written yet?

Excellent question. Luke's version is much different than Matthew and Mark's. I'm still looking into this.

 

[PlainWord]

Two things must be taken into consideration when talking abut the resurrections (plural) in the last days. One resurrection takes place before the 1000 years and the other after the 100 years.

Note the following verses.

Revelation 20:4-10 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Correct. The first resurrection appears to be just martyrs. Not sure if they are just Trib era martyrs or all martyrs. The scene of the 5th seal makes me think ALL martyrs since they are restless and wanting vengeance. What better vengeance than to rule? However, the rest of the saints clearly do not come back before the Trib. See John 6:40, 44, 54 and John 11:24. Words have meanings and the Last Day spoken of there is the LAST DAY of this earth.

Further proof is John 12:48. Jesus states:

He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

We all know the wicked are not judged until the Great White Throne so this is the same last day.

 

[pug32]

I believe the the first resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6) start with the rapture (1 Thes. 4:13-18, Rev. 3:10) and will end in trib. when the seventh angel trumpet (Rev. 10:7). It does not use the words first resurrection but said "even will be finished the mystery of God. There are lots of mystery in the new test. but I believe it is the mystery in 1 Cor. 15:57. I believe the rapture is for all those in the body of Christ that are looking for the His coming to the air (1 Thes. 4:17, Luke 17:22-37)

 

[Hoffco]

To PlainWord, You are into some very dangerous thinking, denying that Jesus will come back to earth, You say it is God ,not Jesus and it will be the "day of God" , the last day of this world. I'm beginning to think you are the cult of the "oneness" doctrine. Do you believe that God is "ONE" person?, denying the trinity. I think it is the united Pentecostalism, are you a united Pentecostal? Do you deny the three persons of the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? My friend was of that "oneness" doct. and he acted mad when I tried to teach him the trinity. He also believed Jesus died on wed, and not Fri.. and he denied that the soul was alive after death, at least, the soul was asleep, maybe not dead . It was very hard to understand where he was coming from , he certainly didn't believe, understand, the Bible very well.
We need to nail down a few facts, 1. Jesus is "alive", 2. and is in Heaven, 3. and "this same Jesus will come back
4. and rule this earth for 1,000 yrs. 5. and we ,as glorified saints, will rule with Jesus,on this present earth, 6. for 1,000 yrs. Then 7. after the 1,000 yrs the Day of God will come to destroy this earth and make it new. 8. Peter tells us to remember that with the Lord " one day is as a 1,000 yrs.". The Day of the Lord is the last day,1,000 yrs long. Rev. 22:20 "..."Surely I am coming quickly." Even so come Lord Jesus! 21 " the grace of the our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen" Love to all, Hoffco,

 

[PlainWord]

I believe the the first resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6) start with the rapture (1 Thes. 4:13-18, Rev. 3:10) and will end in trib. when the seventh angel trumpet (Rev. 10:7). It does not use the words first resurrection but said "even will be finished the mystery of God. There are lots of mystery in the new test. but I believe it is the mystery in 1 Cor. 15:57. I believe the rapture is for all those in the body of Christ that are looking for the His coming to the air (1 Thes. 4:17, Luke 17:22-37)

Rev 20 discusses Trib era martyred saints. 1 Thes 4:13-18 is discussing God the Father bringing back the Dead in Christ at the end of the age/world. Look closely at vs 14.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

It is Jesus who died and rose again and we sleep in Jesus but see it is God who brings us back and the timing is after the millennium at the end of the world. God only comes to destroy the old corrupt heavens and earth and to raise the dead for the Great White Throne of Judgment. Everybody misses this distinction, so don't feel bad but there it is in black and white, bolded for you, LOL.

Jesus doesn't come at the 7th trumpet, he comes at the 7th seal. The 7th trumpet portion of Rev just shows the scene in heaven. The timing of Jesus' return is shown at Luke 17:37 which ties to the scene shown starting at Rev 19:11. Both verses describe the scene of birds eating the flesh of men which is at the Battle of Armageddon. Christ return is not imminent and it is not a silent event, Rev 1:7. He comes with a white horse and an army. Hard to miss. The other descriptions fit the coming of God at the end of the world.

Christ gives clear signs of his coming. All of these signs must happen first. The first sign is the Tribulation itself, Mat 24:21-34. Verses 35-51 describe the end of the world. Remember, Jesus was asked three questions. People always seem to forget the third question, "sign of the end of the age (world)." Jesus answers those questions in order. The breaks are hard to find until you use other passages to tie them together.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

I know it is hard to give up on an idea that was preached into our heads all our lives but those preaching were just regurgitating things they learned in Bible school and never really bothered to test those theories against the Word, especially the Rapture theory which is the biggest lie of them all. I hope this helps?

 

[PlainWord]

To PlainWord, You are into some very dangerous thinking, denying that Jesus will come back to earth, You say it is God ,not Jesus and it will be the "day of God" , the last day of this world. I'm beginning to think you are the cult of the "oneness" doctrine. Do you believe that God is "ONE" person?, denying the trinity. I think it is the united Pentecostalism, are you a united Pentecostal? Do you deny the three persons of the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? My friend was of that "oneness" doct. and he acted mad when I tried to teach him the trinity. He also believed Jesus died on wed, and not Fri.. and he denied that the soul was alive after death, at least, the soul was asleep, maybe not dead . It was very hard to understand where he was coming from , he certainly didn't believe, understand, the Bible very well.
We need to nail down a few facts, 1. Jesus is "alive", 2. and is in Heaven, 3. and "this same Jesus will come back
4. and rule this earth for 1,000 yrs. 5. and we ,as glorified saints, will rule with Jesus,on this present earth, 6. for 1,000 yrs. Then 7. after the 1,000 yrs the Day of God will come to destroy this earth and make it new. 8. Peter tells us to remember that with the Lord " one day is as a 1,000 yrs.". The Day of the Lord is the last day,1,000 yrs long. Rev. 22:20 "..."Surely I am coming quickly." Even so come Lord Jesus! 21 " the grace of the our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen" Love to all, Hoffco,

Hoffco,

WHEN DID I EVER SAY JESUS WASN'T COMING BACK!!?? Of course Jesus is alive and in heaven!!

Of course I believe in the Trinity. Read my previous post to Pug32. Everything I said is backed up by the WORD. Men on earth twisted the Word into some rapture of church theory using dispensationalism and rightly dividing theory which isn't taught in the Bible to change what the Bible really does teach. They did this because the thought of a Rapture is much more appealing and millions were made off the idea.

Please don't put words in my mouth dear brother. If you think I said something that isn't scriptural, tell me specifically what I said.

 

[Michael50]

To PlainWord, You are into some very dangerous thinking, denying that Jesus will come back to earth, You say it is God ,not Jesus and it will be the "day of God" , the last day of this world. I'm beginning to think you are the cult of the "oneness" doctrine. Do you believe that God is "ONE" person?, denying the trinity. I think it is the united Pentecostalism, are you a united Pentecostal? Do you deny the three persons of the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? My friend was of that "oneness" doct. and he acted mad when I tried to teach him the trinity. He also believed Jesus died on wed, and not Fri.. and he denied that the soul was alive after death, at least, the soul was asleep, maybe not dead . It was very hard to understand where he was coming from , he certainly didn't believe, understand, the Bible very well.
We need to nail down a few facts, 1. Jesus is "alive", 2. and is in Heaven, 3. and "this same Jesus will come back
4. and rule this earth for 1,000 yrs. 5. and we ,as glorified saints, will rule with Jesus,on this present earth, 6. for 1,000 yrs. Then 7. after the 1,000 yrs the Day of God will come to destroy this earth and make it new. 8. Peter tells us to remember that with the Lord " one day is as a 1,000 yrs.". The Day of the Lord is the last day,1,000 yrs long. Rev. 22:20 "..."Surely I am coming quickly." Even so come Lord Jesus! 21 " the grace of the our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen" Love to all, Hoffco,

Whoa,,,hold yer horses!!!! you wrote: "We need to nail down a few facts.....4. and rule this earth for 1,000 yrs. 5. and we, as glorified saints, will rule with Jesus, on the this present earth..."


I don't agree with your '"facts".

Nowhere does the scripture say we are going to rule for 1000 years on this earth. I think you made that "fact' up. My Bible teaches that we are going to meet Jesus "in the air".

I think that is very important.

Satan will appear as a man, somehwere on the earth. And he will claim to be Jesus. And he and others will announce that the long awaited mellinial reign is to begin.

Satan is not permitted to come in the manner that Jesus does, (in the clouds).

Those who look for Jesus to appear and reign on earth for 1000 years,, will get an imposter,,,, Satan!

The Righteous shall judge angels and wicked humans,,, while we are in Heaven, with Jesus!

This earth will be void and without form during the 1000 years we are in heaven. Only Satan will be here, with his angels, with nobody to tempt. All the wicked humans will be dead. They will die at the coming of Jesus, and they won't live again until the 1000 years ends. That is when the saints will return with Jesus and the Holy City Jerusalem, and the Holy City will sit where themount of olives is now.

The belief that the saints will reign on earth,, is a set up...... to being decieved by Satan when he appears and claims to be Christ cometh!

 

[PlainWord]

Whoa,,,hold yer horses!!!! you wrote: "We need to nail down a few facts.....4. and rule this earth for 1,000 yrs. 5. and we, as glorified saints, will rule with Jesus, on the this present earth..."


I don't agree with your '"facts".

Nowhere does the scripture say we are going to rule for 1000 years on this earth. I think you made that "fact' up. My Bible teaches that we are going to meet Jesus "in the air".

I think that is very important.

Satan will appear as a man, somehwere on the earth. And he will claim to be Jesus. And he and others will announce that the long awaited mellinial reign is to begin.

Satan is not permitted to come in the manner that Jesus does, (in the clouds).

Those who look for Jesus to appear and reign on earth for 1000 years,, will get an imposter,,,, Satan!

The Righteous shall judge angels and wicked humans,,, while we are in Heaven, with Jesus!

This earth will be void and without form during the 1000 years we are in heaven. Only Satan will be here, with his angels, with nobody to tempt. All the wicked humans will be dead. They will die at the coming of Jesus, and they won't live again until the 1000 years ends. That is when the saints will return with Jesus and the Holy City Jerusalem, and the Holy City will sit where themount of olives is now.

The belief that the saints will reign on earth,, is a set up...... to being decieved by Satan when he appears and claims to be Christ cometh!

I believe you have it better understood than most, so hat's off to you. But you are wrong about at least one thing. The martyred of the Tribulation will reign with Christ and it is on this old earth for 1,000 years. See Rev 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

We are "gathered" by Jesus 2 Thes 2:1 but certainly we are NOT given glorified bodies and we do NOT go to heaven then. We do not return with Jesus, those who sleep. We return with God the father at the end of the age/world. 2 Peter 3:10

 

[ChosenbyHim]

We are "gathered" by Jesus 2 Thes 2:1 but certainly we are NOT given glorified bodies and we do NOT go to heaven then. We do not return with Jesus, those who sleep. We return with God the father at the end of the age/world. 2 Peter 3:10

Plain, we are given glorified bodies at the Rapture:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. - 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 (KJV)

That change that Paul is talking about is the transformation that is going to take place at the Rapture. At the Rapture, we Christians are going to get our new glorified bodies.


19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. - Romans 8:19-23 (KJV)



20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. - Philippians 3:21-21 (KJV)




The Scriptures do teach that we will receive a new glorified body. It is right there plain.

And also, we do return to the Earth with Jesus at His Second Coming:


11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. - Revelation 19:11-21 (KJV)


We are the armies that are in Heaven that follow Jesus as He comes to the Earth to judge and make war with the Nations.


And notice that the armies that are in Heaven are described as clothed in fine linen, white and clean.The fine linen is the righteousness of saints:


6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. - Revelation 19:6-9 (KJV)


It is very important Plain to compare Scripture with Scripture. We have to do that as we are studying the Bible.




14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. - Jude 1:14-15 (KJV)


And there we have another passage of Scripture that confirms that the Lord will come with His saints to this Earth at His Second Coming. We are His saints.

 

[Michael50]

I believe you have it better understood than most, so hat's off to you. But you are wrong about at least one thing. The martyred of the Tribulation will reign with Christ and it is on this old earth for 1,000 years. See Rev 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

We are "gathered" by Jesus 2 Thes 2:1 but certainly we are NOT given glorified bodies and we do NOT go to heaven then. We do not return with Jesus, those who sleep. We return with God the father at the end of the age/world. 2 Peter 3:10

Do you realize that when Jesus appears to get His saints, the wicked are killed at His Appearance?

The Divinity of Jesus was always hidden in the garb of humanity. When Jesus appears at his 2nd Coming,, the wicked will not be able to look at Him without dying!

Only the Righteous will be able to look at Jesus and live.

before Jesus appears,, this earth is going to be a total wreck! Wars, plagues, 100 lb. hailstones, the worst earthquake in the history of the earth. This earth will not be habitable for humans. Jeremiah describes the condition of the earth after Jesus appears:

"I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form and void; And the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled. And all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man. And all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful plain was a wilderness, and all it's cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, by His fierce anger."

Jeremiah used the same wording that Moses did in Genesis 1:2. "without form and void"

"The slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neigher gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground." (Jeremiah 25:33)

"With the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked." (Isaiah11:4)

"Let the wicked perish at the presence of God." (Psalm 68:2)


The earth will be desolate for 1000 years. Satan & his angels will be bound,, that is,, they will be powerless because they will have nobody to influence. All the wicked will be dead. They will not be raised back to life until the 1000 years is finished. At that time,, Satan will influence them again,, to surround the Holy City. Fire will devour them and burn them up, turning them to ashes. Then,,, God will make a new heaven and a new earth. The saints will watch God do all of this from the safety of the Holy City Jerusalem.

That's my story, and I'm stickin to it.

 

[PlainWord]

Where have you been my dear friend?? My comments in red. I've had an epiphany since we last spoke. I have broken the truth wide open concerning all these things. We were both wrong. But you were more wrong than me, LOL.

Plain, we are given glorified bodies at the Rapture:

We need to define this rapture. It is not the church getting taken up in a cloud with Jesus and going to heaven while all hell breaks loose on earth. We get our glorified bodies on the last day of the old earth and we return with God the father, not with Jesus, unless you are a martyr.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. - 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 (KJV) This last Trumpet is NOT the 7th trumpet of the Trib. It is the Last Trumpet ever to be blown on earth and it is God's trumpet, 1 Thes 4:14-16. Words have meanings (no "dividing" necessary, the Word as written is correct). Those verse in red dealing with corruption and mortality putting on incorruption and immortality prove that we will be changed but God doesn't intend to return us to this corrupt and mortal world. God returns us to the New Heaven and New Earth that will not pass away. He isn't going to purify us then mix us back in with the filth of the old earth. Only the martyrs come back with Christ, Rev 20:4. The rest of us "rest" like Paul teaches until the 1,000 years are up. We then return with God, the Father.

That change that Paul is talking about is the transformation that is going to take place at the Rapture. At the Rapture, we Christians are going to get our new glorified bodies. Nope, he is talking about the final day of earth. See 2 Peter 3:10. They are saying the same thing.


19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. - Romans 8:19-23 (KJV)

Agreed, just this doesn't happen Trib era, it happens end of world era, more later on how I know or you can just read my other recent posts. Jesus himself declares the timing John 6:40, 44, 54, John 11:24. Again, "the Last Day" is the real Last Day, not some Pre-trib rapture day as that is clearly not THE LAST DAY.


20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. - Philippians 3:21-21 (KJV)




The Scriptures do teach that we will receive a new glorified body. It is right there plain. AGREED

And also, we do return to the Earth with Jesus at His Second Coming: Disagreed unless you are a martyr. Rev 20


11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. - Revelation 19:11-21 (KJV)


We are the armies that are in Heaven that follow Jesus as He comes to the Earth to judge and make war with the Nations.

Hey, you nailed it, almost!!! You nailed the timing. This is the correct return of Jesus. This is HIS second Coming. He doesn't come before this and he doesn't come after this. When He comes, He comes to stay and rule the nations with a rod of iron WITH THE MARTYRS, not with everybody. The 2nd resurrection is at the end of the age/world. But I'm so happy you finally nailed the timing of HIS second coming!!!!!
See the passages I highlighted above in red dealing with the birds feasting on all the men? This is the Battle of Armegeddon. This is after the 6th seal. This is WHERE Jesus comes. Luke 17:37.

37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
And notice that the armies that are in Heaven are described as clothed in fine linen, white and clean.The fine linen is the righteousness of saints: Yes, same description as the martyrs under the alter at the 5th seal.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer,
How much longer will they rest?

until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. - Revelation 19:6-9 (KJV)

And who is the bride? Whether it is the saints or Jerusalem as Rev 21:9-10 suggests, doesn't matter. Being invited to the Marriage Supper is not the same as being the bride herself. The Bride doesn't need to be invited to her own marriage supper!! Jerusalem was the Harlot, now she has been purified and made clean and is ready and acceptable to be the Bride. In any event, the New Jerusalem is part of the new heaven and earth and ALL SAINTS will be there. It is very important Plain to compare Scripture with Scripture. We have to do that as we are studying the Bible.

Couldn't agree more my good friend, our differences has really caused me to pour myself into the Word. I owe you a debt of gratitude.


14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Wonder if the actual number is 144,000???
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. - Jude 1:14-15 (KJV)


And there we have another passage of Scripture that confirms that the Lord will come with His saints to this Earth at His Second Coming. We are His saints.

 

[PlainWord]

Do you realize that when Jesus appears to get His saints, the wicked are killed at His Appearance?

The Divinity of Jesus was always hidden in the garb of humanity. When Jesus appears at his 2nd Coming,, the wicked will not be able to look at Him without dying!

Only the Righteous will be able to look at Jesus and live.

before Jesus appears,, this earth is going to be a total wreck! Wars, plagues, 100 lb. hailstones, the worst earthquake in the history of the earth. This earth will not be habitable for humans. Jeremiah describes the condition of the earth after Jesus appears:

"I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form and void; And the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled. And all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man. And all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful plain was a wilderness, and all it's cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, by His fierce anger."

Jeremiah used the same wording that Moses did in Genesis 1:2. "without form and void"

"The slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neigher gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground." (Jeremiah 25:33)

"With the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked." (Isaiah11:4)

"Let the wicked perish at the presence of God." (Psalm 68:2)


The earth will be desolate for 1000 years. Satan & his angels will be bound,, that is,, they will be powerless because they will have nobody to influence. All the wicked will be dead. They will not be raised back to life until the 1000 years is finished. At that time,, Satan will influence them again,, to surround the Holy City. Fire will devour them and burn them up, turning them to ashes. Then,,, God will make a new heaven and a new earth. The saints will watch God do all of this from the safety of the Holy City Jerusalem.

That's my story, and I'm stickin to it.

Okay, my good friend. Stick to it. Just be sure to check one more time which passages apply to the Tribulation era and which apply to the end of the world era. A lot more apply to end of world era than most people realize because we are so fixated on our time in history. The tribulation will be big event, no doubt about it but nothing compared to when the heavens and earth disappear with a HUGE bang. Plus the end of the world is the final judgment. If it was a video game, it would be the final monster, as my kids call it.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Where have you been my dear friend?? My comments in red. I've had an epiphany since we last spoke. I have broken the truth wide open concerning all these things. We were both wrong. But you were more wrong than me, LOL.


We need to define this rapture. It is not the church getting taken up in a cloud with Jesus and going to heaven while all hell breaks loose on earth. We get our glorified bodies on the last day of the old earth and we return with God the father, not with Jesus, unless you are a martyr.

Let the Scriptures define what the Rapture is Plain.

And yes it is the Body of Christ getting removed from off of the earth. We will meet with the Lord in the clouds:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)

Nope, he is talking about the final day of earth. See 2 Peter 3:10. They are saying the same thing.

No, he is not talking about the Final Day of Earth. He is talking about the translation, the Rapture of the Body of Christ which will take place before the time of Jacob's trouble. Rightly divide the word of truth.

Agreed, just this doesn't happen Trib era, it happens end of world era, more later on how I know or you can just read my other recent posts. Jesus himself declares the timing John 6:40, 44, 54, John 11:24. Again, "the Last Day" is the real Last Day, not some Pre-trib rapture day as that is clearly not THE LAST DAY.

It seems like what you are trying to do is connect and link the Day of The Lord with the catching up of Born again believers in the Church Age (Dispensation of Grace).

So basically what you are claiming Plain is that the Rapture happens at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

Is that what you are trying to say? Because if that is what you are trying to teach than you are very wrong. The Rapture has to take place before the time of Jacob's trouble, because the body of Christ will not be on the earth when the antichrist is in control (See 2 Thess. 2:7).

Disagreed unless you are a martyr. Rev 20

Both the martyrs and Christians Read both Rev. 19 & 20.

Hey, you nailed it, almost!!! You nailed the timing. This is the correct return of Jesus. This is HIS second Coming. He doesn't come before this and he doesn't come after this. When He comes, He comes to stay and rule the nations with a rod of iron WITH THE MARTYRS, not with everybody. The 2nd resurrection is at the end of the age/world. But I'm so happy you finally nailed the timing of HIS second coming!!!!!
See the passages I highlighted above in red dealing with the birds feasting on all the men? This is the Battle of Armegeddon. This is after the 6th seal. This is WHERE Jesus comes. Luke 17:37.

37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

The Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ takes place after the time of Jacob's trouble. (See Matthew 24 & 25).

Yes, same description as the martyrs under the alter at the 5th seal.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a littlewhile longer,
How much longer will they rest?

until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

And who is the bride? Whether it is the saints or Jerusalem as Rev 21:9-10 suggests, doesn't matter. Being invited to the Marriage Supper is not the same as being the bride herself. The Bride doesn't need to be invited to her own marriage supper!! Jerusalem was the Harlot, now she has been purified and made clean and is ready and acceptable to be the Bride. In any event, the New Jerusalem is part of the new heaven and earth and ALL SAINTS will be there.
Couldn't agree more my good friend, our differences has really caused me to pour myself into the Word. I owe you a debt of gratitude.

Well I am glad that you have put more time into studying the word of God. We all need to be spending more time in the word of God.

And remember that we need to compare Scripture with Scripture and rightly divide it.

Wonder if the actual number is 144,000???

I believe it is.

The Scriptures clearly say that it is that number:


3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. - Revelation 7:3-12 (KJV)

 

[Hoffco]

To Just-me, You made a good observation in Lk.21:20-24 Luke tells of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad, ,then Lk. tells of the Rapture of the church in vs,25-28, then the sign of Israel's restoration as the last generation before the Rapture. SO, in v24 is the end of this church age , when the gentile rule over Israel is fulfilled and the Gospel has brought in the last of the Gentiles to be saved, Romans11:25"..blindness has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" . then the rapture happens in Lk.21:25-28. in Mt.24:15-22 we see the antichrist in the temple,during the last days, the latter days, ,the 70th wk. of Daniel. In Mt.24:27-34. we see the rapture of the Church. More to follow, love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

to all, Please follow me thru Daniel on the end time. Dan. 8:17 "the time of the end" 8:23 "latter time" 8:26 "seal it up..it is for "many days in the future" 9:12 "great disaster" 11:29 "appointed time" 11:31 " abomination of desolation" (Mt.24:15 "abomination of desolation in the holy place"-temple) Dan.11:35 'the time of the end" " the appointed time" 11:36-39 (the antichrist) 11:40 "time of the end" 11:45 "he shall come to his end" ( 2Thess. 2::8 "whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with brightness of His coming."--at the end of the 70th wk. of Daniel.) and Rev. 19:14-21) Dan. 12:1 "At that time"(the end) Michael shall come to help Israel, 12:2 (Time of resurrection from the dead ,to heaven or to the lake of fire) Rev. 21:5-15 (1,000 yrs between the resurrection to life and the resurrection to the lk. of fire) Dan.12:11 at the end, from the time of the "abomination of desolation" 1,290 days and 1,335 days, Daniel is told to go ,rest(die) and rise to eternal life "at the end of days" AMEN and AMEN! We MUST rightly relate all the scriptures. love to all ,Hoffco