Pre-Trib. Rapture Moment 19: A Rapture in Exodus 19:16-21?

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miktre

Guest
#21
Lazarus was not in heaven, he was in Abraham's bosom... and no it was not merely a parable, it was real. This is where Jesus went to minister when he was crucified. This whole story is laid out in parable form in Genesis. It's the story about the butler and the baker. Think about it, Joseph (a shadow of Jesus) was in prison ministering to the captives. One group was raised up, and the other group was cut off.
So Abraham wasn't unconscious and the rich man was in hell so where do you think Abraham was if he wasn't in his grave at the time of Christ's death?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#22
I've got to call a day, got to get some sleep.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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#24
Where do you put all those Old Testaments saints that were raised with Jesus?
They are in heaven. They rest there until the 1,000 earth years, 1 heaven day is completed.

Rev 20:

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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#25
Lets look at the one key similarity that you can't get past.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

How many times can you raise the dead and the living? Why would you raise them twice? How could the living be raised twice?
Makes no sense, whatsoever
There are three resurrections.

1 Cor 15:

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: 1. Christ the firstfruits, 2. afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

24 3. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

The last enemy Christ defeats is death. Nobody alive is changed when Christ returns. This has been a huge misunderstanding throughout most of the church. There is a gathering of the remnant but nothing says they are changed at this time.

26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Christ reigns for 1,000 earth years. Then death is defeated and all those in heaven are resurrected and God brings them with Him when He establishes His new heaven and earth.

1 Thes 4:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God (NOT JESUS) will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

You see here that it is God who brings those asleep in Jesus. Those who are alive will not precede (or prevent) those who are asleep in Christ because they are already with Him in spirit. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This is true in spirit from the moment of death.

As we see from the below Christ only comes back once and we see that it is appointed for men to die once. The only exception is for the living at the very end of the millennium. If Christ were to change all living believers when He first returns, then they would not be appointed to die once. This passage is given in context of the Lord's one and only return.

Heb 9:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.


We learn from 1 Cor 15 that flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. When does God establish His kingdom? At the very end, after the millennial reign of Christ. So the below is seen clearly in context to be AFTER the millennium and not before. Again, the LAST enemy Christ defeats is death. It isn't the first enemy He defeats.

1 Cor 15:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

 
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miktre

Guest
#26
There are three resurrections.

1 Cor 15:

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: 1. Christ the firstfruits, 2. afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

24 3. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

The last enemy Christ defeats is death. Nobody alive is changed when Christ returns. This has been a huge misunderstanding throughout most of the church. There is a gathering of the remnant but nothing says they are changed at this time.

26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Christ reigns for 1,000 earth years. Then death is defeated and all those in heaven are resurrected and God brings them with Him when He establishes His new heaven and earth.

1 Thes 4:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God (NOT JESUS) will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

You see here that it is God who brings those asleep in Jesus. Those who are alive will not precede (or prevent) those who are asleep in Christ because they are already with Him in spirit. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This is true in spirit from the moment of death.

As we see from the below Christ only comes back once and we see that it is appointed for men to die once. The only exception is for the living at the very end of the millennium. If Christ were to change all living believers when He first returns, then they would not be appointed to die once. This passage is given in context of the Lord's one and only return.

Heb 9:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.


We learn from 1 Cor 15 that flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. When does God establish His kingdom? At the very end, after the millennial reign of Christ. So the below is seen clearly in context to be AFTER the millennium and not before. Again, the LAST enemy Christ defeats is death. It isn't the first enemy He defeats.

1 Cor 15:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

I think we have different ideas about what resurrection means. Also, God was never the God of the dead but of the living.

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#27
I think we have different ideas about what resurrection means. Also, God was never the God of the dead but of the living.

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Those who are in Christ will always be living, either in spirit or in body. We will all have glorified bodies when the new heaven is established here on earth. I do believe some will have them sooner, those who are raised when Christ returns. They will have them because their job is to minister and teach during the Millennium.

This is a complex and difficult topic because the teaching isn't all that clear.