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There is a big debate in Christian circles about atonement,
Many Calvinist and reformed churches believe in "limited atonement" which is what your teacher teaches..,that Jesus only died for an elect few.
Other churches (such as Methodist) believe in universal atonement or that Jesus death on the cross was powerful enough to cleanse the whole world and it is the person choice to accept or reject salvation.
It's more complicated than those two statements but the basic idea is that folks don't agree about atonement and I have found folks can be pretty nasty and unChristlile on both sides of the debate
This is the false declaration of Calvinism. Even unsaved people understand the difference between good and evil (Gen 3:22), and can choose either one. Anyone can freely choose to seek God, and the Bible promises that when they do, they will find Him.
They can will themselves to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And when they do that, they become saved (Rom 10:9; Eph 1:13).
God quickens people when they choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, not before.
Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
They can will themselves to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And when they do that, they become saved (Rom 10:9; Eph 1:13).
God quickens people when they choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, not before.
Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
First off, would like to welcome you to, the bestest danged "Biblical Discussion Forum" on "da-net!" IMHO
Been to more then several "christian" chatrooms, forums, message boards, online? Been "booted" from 'em all too!
As have a few, if not more, on here.
I am convinced, that God has, and does, "predestine", His "Elect!" Having said this? The "Whosoever believe in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior, shall not perish, but, have everlasting (some say eternal, but this is not the case...another topic, for perhaps, another time...lol) life."
That whosoever part, means ANYBODY! EVERYBODY, is how many God, the Father, "wishes", would come unto His only begotten Son to be forgiven! Ya see? It's the individuals CHOICE! Many "clamor" about screaming "FREE WILL!...FREE WILL!", Bottom line? An individual is Free TO Choose! Although, various social environments, cultures, peers, etc. may, and have made it more difficult IN the choosing? It's STILL, as long as you are still breathing air, and putting your shoes on one at a time, CHOICE!
WHERE the Calvinists got WAY OFF BASE, is WHEN, they LOST the battle with PRINCIPALITIES!! WHAT that did, was give cause for "vanity driven ego's", in their "not allowing God, to be God!" An Extremely SERIOUS "Shortcoming!!" To the point that they, in this blindness, must OPPRESS ALL, who disagree with this blindness! (VERY Much, like some "Rapture Doctrine", people in their ignorance, and, arrogance).
Why, to even consider, God has decreed some will NEVER have, even the ability TO choose? One would have to BE, some "special KIND", of STUPID!!
(now print this out, take it your teacher, kiss him on the cheek, wish him Merry Christmas, and watch how red his face becomes, when he reads it)
Been to more then several "christian" chatrooms, forums, message boards, online? Been "booted" from 'em all too!
As have a few, if not more, on here. I am convinced, that God has, and does, "predestine", His "Elect!" Having said this? The "Whosoever believe in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior, shall not perish, but, have everlasting (some say eternal, but this is not the case...another topic, for perhaps, another time...lol) life."
That whosoever part, means ANYBODY! EVERYBODY, is how many God, the Father, "wishes", would come unto His only begotten Son to be forgiven! Ya see? It's the individuals CHOICE! Many "clamor" about screaming "FREE WILL!...FREE WILL!", Bottom line? An individual is Free TO Choose! Although, various social environments, cultures, peers, etc. may, and have made it more difficult IN the choosing? It's STILL, as long as you are still breathing air, and putting your shoes on one at a time, CHOICE!
WHERE the Calvinists got WAY OFF BASE, is WHEN, they LOST the battle with PRINCIPALITIES!! WHAT that did, was give cause for "vanity driven ego's", in their "not allowing God, to be God!" An Extremely SERIOUS "Shortcoming!!" To the point that they, in this blindness, must OPPRESS ALL, who disagree with this blindness! (VERY Much, like some "Rapture Doctrine", people in their ignorance, and, arrogance).
Why, to even consider, God has decreed some will NEVER have, even the ability TO choose? One would have to BE, some "special KIND", of STUPID!!
(now print this out, take it your teacher, kiss him on the cheek, wish him Merry Christmas, and watch how red his face becomes, when he reads it)
It is not fear of the doctrines of calvinism it is revulsion of the doctrines of calvinism..
If calvinism is true then all humans are equally vial beings incapable of responding in a positive way to Gods will..
If calvinism is true then everyone who is Redeemed are taken over and controlled by God to accept His will so God can save them..
If calvinism is true then everyone who is damned to eternity in the lake of fire will be going there simply because God decided not to force them by his own will to accept His will..
So you have two sets of evil fallen people who are the same in every way.. But God selects a group of them to be saved and have eternity with him is His perfect eternal existence and the other group God selects to be cast into the eternal lake of fire..
Note both of these created beings are the same in every way.. Both where created by the same God to be the same.. but one portion is given eternity in paradise and the other eternity in the lake of fire.. and this was decided from the foundation of the world.. that God created people and gave them life with absolutely No hope or opportunity to accept his will. People created for no other purpose then to be cast alive into the eternal lake of fire to suffer torment for eternity...... Think about it..
For me i would be loath to ever accuse God of doing such a thing.. What a horrendous thing to declare about the character of God,, to declare that he would do such a thing...
If calvinism is true then all humans are equally vial beings incapable of responding in a positive way to Gods will..
If calvinism is true then everyone who is Redeemed are taken over and controlled by God to accept His will so God can save them..
If calvinism is true then everyone who is damned to eternity in the lake of fire will be going there simply because God decided not to force them by his own will to accept His will..
So you have two sets of evil fallen people who are the same in every way.. But God selects a group of them to be saved and have eternity with him is His perfect eternal existence and the other group God selects to be cast into the eternal lake of fire..
Note both of these created beings are the same in every way.. Both where created by the same God to be the same.. but one portion is given eternity in paradise and the other eternity in the lake of fire.. and this was decided from the foundation of the world.. that God created people and gave them life with absolutely No hope or opportunity to accept his will. People created for no other purpose then to be cast alive into the eternal lake of fire to suffer torment for eternity...... Think about it..
For me i would be loath to ever accuse God of doing such a thing.. What a horrendous thing to declare about the character of God,, to declare that he would do such a thing...
[for me anyway] unfortunately many who have received the knowledge of God by way of scholastic achievement always lean toward what they have been taught by scholastic achievers before them, and because they are now of reputation will insist that what they conclude is right, which actually what someone they have learned of concluded. They set themselves with the conclusion and verses to support their conclusion: yet if any were to present another scripture that would interfere or counter their conclusion, then they immediately enter into defense mode, and insist what another scripture says is either not related, or another scripture pertains to a different matter; and that is that!
The point being that a schooled knowledge of God is not the same as being taught by the Holy Spirit: even though most all who are scholastically achieving Christian teachers and Church leaders will insist that they are one and the same.
Being scholastically achieved is good as long as we keep our heart and mind bowed under the Word of God; and if we begin to think and speak above that which is written, then are we in the midst of exaggeration and over-estimation, wherein dwelleth the wise and prudent: contrariwise it is those that learn not to think above that which is written who are the Babes in whom the Truth is revealed.
The point being that a schooled knowledge of God is not the same as being taught by the Holy Spirit: even though most all who are scholastically achieving Christian teachers and Church leaders will insist that they are one and the same.
Being scholastically achieved is good as long as we keep our heart and mind bowed under the Word of God; and if we begin to think and speak above that which is written, then are we in the midst of exaggeration and over-estimation, wherein dwelleth the wise and prudent: contrariwise it is those that learn not to think above that which is written who are the Babes in whom the Truth is revealed.
Predestination is a beautiful doctrine for the believer to understand. Predestination is towards all who have already believed the gospel of Jesus Christ. When one believes the gospel, the Lord predestines them for the adoption which is the redemption of the body. It is a future thing. Pre meaning before it occurs, destination meaning our final state. Believers have the promise of glorified bodies, when these vile bodies will be conformed into the image of Christ. What a glorious future we have in Christ!
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God is willing that none are lost but all come to salvation.
God placed ALL under Adam, so all can have the ability to be placed in christ.
God offered salvation to all. He is not going to force anyone to take it, Or give them an unfair ability to chose while others can not. Not is he going to force people to deny him by not allowing them to see him.
Predestination means our salvation is predetermined according to Gods will. Gods will is that ALL who see and ALL WHO believe will be saved.
That is how they are perceived when they equate salvation to election. They as elect are better than those who are lost because they were not elect. To suggest that God elects some to eternal condemnation and there is nothing the non elect and do is perceived as quite cruel and it makes others seem elite.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Knowingly or unknowingly you have stepped into one of the hotbeds of controversy in the Christian church! LOL!
The issue is the sovereignty of God and the free will of man.
On this forum some emphasize the sovereignty of God - Calvinism - God does all the choosing
Others emphasize the free will of man - Arminianism - man does all the choosing and the work
And then there are a few of us who believe in both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man - Biblicism
LOL!
Here is my advice, Hannah, -- Don't let the controversy draw you aside from the core of the issue: Find Jesus Christ, believe in Him and His death and resurrection, and live a life of obedience and victory in the power of the Spirit!
The issue is the sovereignty of God and the free will of man.
On this forum some emphasize the sovereignty of God - Calvinism - God does all the choosing
Others emphasize the free will of man - Arminianism - man does all the choosing and the work
And then there are a few of us who believe in both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man - Biblicism
LOL!
Here is my advice, Hannah, -- Don't let the controversy draw you aside from the core of the issue: Find Jesus Christ, believe in Him and His death and resurrection, and live a life of obedience and victory in the power of the Spirit!
A
Human sinful nature makes people mean,
.only those who are born again and lead by the Holy Spirit shows His love and wisdom through Truth and gentle peaace and joy of His Holy spirit.
Some folks deny the need to be born again or lead by the Holy spirit and state the Bible is enough. Some to too far and rejecting the Bible and it's clear teachings and base their beliefs on their emotion and spiritual experience.
.God wants us to have both the Holy Spirit to guide us and His Holy Bible to show us what is and isn't true about who God is and how to discern the leadings of the Holy spirit and the leading of the flesh or world.
.only those who are born again and lead by the Holy Spirit shows His love and wisdom through Truth and gentle peaace and joy of His Holy spirit.
Some folks deny the need to be born again or lead by the Holy spirit and state the Bible is enough. Some to too far and rejecting the Bible and it's clear teachings and base their beliefs on their emotion and spiritual experience.
.God wants us to have both the Holy Spirit to guide us and His Holy Bible to show us what is and isn't true about who God is and how to discern the leadings of the Holy spirit and the leading of the flesh or world.
D
Since many got focused into their own arguments, I'm not sure you got a clear answer. (You got a good answer, but honestly? I don't always understand even when people explain it to me, so I'm going to explain it a different way, just in case the other way didn't make sense to you.)
We all sinned, right? And what's the penalty for sinning? Well, God can't look on sin, so we're separated from him. Then we will die. And then we go to hell. That's the right justice for sin.
God is just, so he can't break his own justice, but part of his justice was if someone isn't guilty of a sin, he can take the punishment of the sinner. Only one guy filled the bill for everyone. Jesus. He never sinned. So he took on the rightful punishment -- separation from his Father, (My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?), death, and he even went to hell to take out the ones his Father gave him, right?
We all deserve the punishment, so why don't we all get it? Because the Lord loves us enough to do that for us. We were on Death Row, and he freed some of us. And he asked us to spread the news, so others could be freed, so we tell everyone the good news. He didn't tell us who he would choose and who he wouldn't choose, but obviously he has chosen some. Based on what? Certainly not based on our worth. No one is worth that, because we sinned. Based on his choice. His will. He predestined some since before he started this universe.
It's true. You can find it in Romans 8 and 9. But, if you want to understand it in connection with everything else, read Romans all the way through, as if there aren't chapter and verses. Chapter and verses weren't there when it was written. So, just read it as if it is what it is -- a letter explaining what God did to a bunch of Romans.
We all sinned, right? And what's the penalty for sinning? Well, God can't look on sin, so we're separated from him. Then we will die. And then we go to hell. That's the right justice for sin.
God is just, so he can't break his own justice, but part of his justice was if someone isn't guilty of a sin, he can take the punishment of the sinner. Only one guy filled the bill for everyone. Jesus. He never sinned. So he took on the rightful punishment -- separation from his Father, (My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?), death, and he even went to hell to take out the ones his Father gave him, right?
We all deserve the punishment, so why don't we all get it? Because the Lord loves us enough to do that for us. We were on Death Row, and he freed some of us. And he asked us to spread the news, so others could be freed, so we tell everyone the good news. He didn't tell us who he would choose and who he wouldn't choose, but obviously he has chosen some. Based on what? Certainly not based on our worth. No one is worth that, because we sinned. Based on his choice. His will. He predestined some since before he started this universe.
It's true. You can find it in Romans 8 and 9. But, if you want to understand it in connection with everything else, read Romans all the way through, as if there aren't chapter and verses. Chapter and verses weren't there when it was written. So, just read it as if it is what it is -- a letter explaining what God did to a bunch of Romans.
