Predestination

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#21
God gives us a choice. Why would he condemn someone to hell at birth?

all men are already condemned. that's why we need Jesus and we need to proclaim the Gospel.
if God decides to show Mercy, He is God. He does according to His Own counsel.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
 
Aug 18, 2011
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#22
all men are already condemned. that's why we need Jesus and we need to proclaim the Gospel.
if God decides to show Mercy, He is God. He does according to His Own counsel.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
What you say is very true though it's a hard pill to swallow maybe it will go down a little better with some honey
Selah
I love you sister

corripiens iridis manet
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#23
No offence, but that sounds pretty sick. How would that bring glorification to God. I think further explanation is needed here.
yes..a hard pill to swallow, but remember, our ways are not Gods ways.

Exo 9:13 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Rise early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh, and say to him, 'Thus says the LORD God of the Hebrews: "Let My people go, that they may serve Me,
Exo 9:14 for at this time I will send all My plagues to your very heart, and on your servants and on your people, that you may know that there is none like Me in all the earth.
Exo 9:15 Now if I had stretched out My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, then you would have been cut off from the earth.
Exo 9:16 But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
Rom 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#24
What you say is very true though it's a hard pill to swallow maybe it will go down a little better with some honey
Selah
I love you sister

corripiens iridis manet
mmmm....honey.
the scriptures are lovely and sweet.
even the parts about me that i don't much like (LOL).
selah.

(rest in peace Jack Layton...i hope you know My King)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#25
God gives us a choice. Why would he condemn someone to hell at birth?

He does not condemn people to hell at birth. this is a false doctrine propogated by Calvin by twisting scripture.

However. he does know (even before time began) who is going to heaven and who is not. based on his omniscience.

So it depends on who's perspective your looking at.
 
May 25, 2010
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#26
Yes, through Gods omniscience he knows who will act what way in certian situation. So he uses this knowledge to make sure his will is fulfilled. He knew Pharaoh would harden his heart. so God put him in power. God did not force pharaoh to do anything. Pharaoh did it of his own free will
Since you say that GOD knows how one will act a certain way in certain situations, do
you also believe that GOD knew Adam would sin? If so, then, given the fact that most
people are going to hell, you must also believe God knew this also. Wherefore then
would he create just to destroy?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#27
Since you say that GOD knows how one will act a certain way in certain situations, do
you also believe that GOD knew Adam would sin? If so, then, given the fact that most
people are going to hell, you must also believe God knew this also. Wherefore then
would he create just to destroy?

so God is supposed to deprive all of those who will spend an eternity in glory with him. just because many will reject his free gift?

not to mention, How is God supposed to prove to the angelic beings satan is a liar if he did that?who can argue with Gods love considering he personaly came a died for a bunch of people who wanted nothing to do with him.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#28
He does not condemn people to hell at birth. this is a false doctrine propogated by Calvin by twisting scripture.

However. he does know (even before time began) who is going to heaven and who is not. based on his omniscience.

So it depends on who's perspective your looking at.
all men died in Adam and are condemned to hell.

though we are not able to prove it, David's thoughts and prayers about his baby that died, and God's Love and Character lead to me "personally" have faith that He knows who is and is not accountable. babies and the mentally injured etc.

(poor Calvin. run over again. and again).

Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone


Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#29
all men died in Adam and are condemned to hell.

though we are not able to fully prove it, David's thoughts and prayers about his baby that died, and God's Love and Character lead to me "personally" have faith that He knows who is and is not accountable.

poor Calvin. run over again. and again.
We are born dead to God, but we are given a lifetime to repent and come to God. or remain in our dead state. in which case we will be condemned.

I am not trying to run over calvin. Just the belief that God will force a person to not recive Christ is just offensive to me, and I am sure offensive to God. That is not a God of love. that is a dictator who pics and chooses who will live and who will die.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#30
We are born dead to God, but we are given a lifetime to repent and come to God. or remain in our dead state. in which case we will be condemned.

I am not trying to run over calvin. Just the belief that God will force a person to not recive Christ is just offensive to me, and I am sure offensive to God. That is not a God of love. that is a dictator who pics and chooses who will live and who will die.
force?
you know the greek. look up draws again.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#31
We are born dead to God, but we are given a lifetime to repent and come to God. or remain in our dead state. in which case we will be condemned.

I am not trying to run over calvin. Just the belief that God will force a person to not recive Christ is just offensive to me, and I am sure offensive to God. That is not a God of love. that is a dictator who pics and chooses who will live and who will die.
Stilly covered man in darkness and rebellion against God nicely in his OP here:

Atheism is rooted in wicked sinful people suppressing God because of their wickedness

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/25737-atheism-rooted-wicked-sinful-people-suppressing-god-because-their-wickedness.html

The Holy Spirit will not fail in His Commission
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#32
Stilly covered man in darkness and rebellion against God nicely in his OP here:

Atheism is rooted in wicked sinful people suppressing God because of their wickedness

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/25737-atheism-rooted-wicked-sinful-people-suppressing-god-because-their-wickedness.html

The Holy Spirit will not fail in His Commission
Yes he did. The athiest knew God. But wanted nothing to do with God. Thus he will have no excuse because of free will, he chose to reject God.

And the HS will not fail. He knows who will receive Gods gift. And he will do whatever it takes to get that person and rescue them from darkness.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#33
force?
you know the greek. look up draws again.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Calvin teaches God forces men to receive or reject. free will is not involved. I can't see it any other way.

I can be drawn to the truth. Even have it in my hands, yet give it up because I chose to go back. Scripture is clear on this. It is better that I had not known truth than to have it in my hands and reject it.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#34
Calvin teaches God forces men to receive or reject. free will is not involved. I can't see it any other way.

I can be drawn to the truth. Even have it in my hands, yet give it up because I chose to go back. Scripture is clear on this. It is better that I had not known truth than to have it in my hands and reject it.
what's it got to do with calvin? i think TULIP is silly. calvin didn't even invent tulip - men who came after him did.

what about the verses i posted EG? calvin didn't write those verses.

what does the greek say about DRAWS?

and what does it say about LED by The Spirit

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
who is doing the choosing in Matthew 11:27?
 
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May 25, 2010
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#35
so God is supposed to deprive all of those who will spend an eternity in glory with him. just because many will reject his free gift?

not to mention, How is God supposed to prove to the angelic beings satan is a liar if he did that?who can argue with Gods love considering he personaly came a died for a bunch of people who wanted nothing to do with him.
Not sure what you mean, but you failed to answer the question about Adam.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#36
Since you say that GOD knows how one will act a certain way in certain situations, do
you also believe that GOD knew Adam would sin? If so, then, given the fact that most
people are going to hell, you must also believe God knew this also. Wherefore then
would he create just to destroy?
what's the first prophecy in scripture?
the protogospel?

btw: if i have you confused with someone else forgive me....were you saying adam was lucifer?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#37
what's it got to do with calvin? i think TULIP is silly. calvin didn't even invent tulip - men who came after him did.
Well I guess all the "calvanists" I have spoken to over the many years I have been a Christian are just wrong?

what about the verses i posted EG? calvin didn't write those verses.

what about them? They agree with what I say. God draws people. He does not force them.


what does the greek say about DRAWS?

and what does it say about LED by The Spirit
Led. Guided directed. The law leads us to Christ. It takes us by the nad and shows us we need a savior. the HS does this. It does not mean one can resist the spirit. I see people do this all the time.

I can't check the greek till I get home.



who is doing the choosing in Matthew 11:27?

Who is not the question. It is why God choses this person vs that person. This is where myself and those who teach tulip (every calvanist I have ever spoken to) disagree
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#38
Led. Guided directed. The law leads us to Christ. It takes us by the nad and shows us we need a savior. the HS does this. It does not mean one can resist the spirit. I see people do this all the time.
EG: were you called out?
were you dragged to Calvary?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#39
EG: were you called out?
were you dragged to Calvary?
No. I was shown my sin. I was shown my wickedness. Romans 1-3) as God was calling out to me!

And that led me to calvary. because I chose to investigate calvary and see how it would help me.

Calvary and the promises of God led me to faith.

i was not dragged anywhere.

one who is dragged is being taken someplace beyond his will.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#40
No. I was shown my sin. I was shown my wickedness. Romans 1-3) as God was calling out to me!

And that led me to calvary. because I chose to investigate calvary and see how it would help me.

Calvary and the promises of God led me to faith.

i was not dragged anywhere.

one who is dragged is being taken someplace beyond his will.
nobody LED YOU TO FAITH.

it was given to you as a GIFT.
you preach this everyday.
make up your mind.

Who is commissioned to come into the world and convict men of their sin?
and to convince them of the Truth of Jesus Christ?

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

1670. helkó

to drag

Original Word: ἑλκύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: helkó
Phonetic Spelling: (hel-koo'-o)
Short Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade
Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.