PreTrib's insurmountable problem with "the first resurrection":

[garee]

Right. I see what you're trying to say. I hadn't viewed it as the "saints" literally touching down on earth. I'm seeing more of a picture of the believers airborne on these white horses which Re. 19 describes us riding out of heaven on. Minor point of disagreement. In fact, I'm not even sure I disagree with your assertion that the believers will actually touch down on earth. Either way.

Saints in their new incorruptible bodies which will be neither male nor female Jew nor Gentile will touch the new heavens and earth on the last day.Not the old corrupted. That which is fading leading towards total destruction will vanish when it goes up in smoke on the last day. the same day as the final judgment for the unbeliever, at the sound of the seventh trump as the second and final resurrection. Its why the Amil eschatology (no literal thousand year reign on this sin filled earth ) works the best.

Six times in the book of John, the second and final resurrection is seen on the "last day", this is when the Sun and Moon, the time keepers will be replaced by the light of the countenance of God.. Again no literal thousand years reign .There would be no need, the veil is still rent and will not be mended .. flesh and blood will never enter the new heavens and earth.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

With three representing the end of the matter, all three that are required will occur in the twinkling of the eye on the “last day”.

The seventh and final trump...

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The second and final resurrection...( raise it up again) The first when Christ said it is finished the veil is rent.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at thelast day. John 6:40

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

And judgment day for the unbeliever.....

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

There is nothing in the scriptures that informs us that all three qualifiers would not be on the last day

 

[SavedByGrace84]

I hope people realize the "rapture" is a man made doctrine? Yes the bible teaches that when Jesus returns He will send His angels to gather the elect Matthew 24: 30-31....I'm not going to attempt to argue on the matter because the bible is the final authority and unfortunately MEN twist Gods word..

So when did this whole teaching start and who started it?? Instead of arguing bible verses lets go to the ROOT cause of this "rapture" business...Lets lay the ax to the root because its def not producing fruit on the matter..

Its definitely a fact that in 1830 a man named John Nelson Darby started the whole "rapture doctrine". Ok so my question to you is who or what do do you trust in???? HIS TEACHINGS OR THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS? Who has the final say on the matter in your life????

John Darby was a well known theologian of his day. He started off in the catholic church and realized the corruption in it so he left and started his own "denomination" called the "brethren/later know as Darbyites". I must say I read some of this mans teachings and I actually agree with some of it...Especially on his points of how corrupt ORGANIZED denominations are... He was right with some things wrong on others.. Aren't we all???

So whats my point?? Well with any other "great theologian" there are always errors.. Did Jesus really teach that before the great tribulation we will be "raptured' ????? In Matthew 24 the whole chapter Jesus gives detailed step by step info on whats going to happen, read it... In John 14:26 it says that God sent the Holly spirit to teach us all things and to bring remembrance to all things that Jesus taught....Was the holly spirit really using Darby to bring to remembrance the teachings of Christ??? I don't see it, what I do see is that He started a whole new teaching and now we are left with the after affects>>>>>> CONFUSION/DIVISION... WHO IS The AUTHOR OF CONFUSION/DIVISION??? "SCRATCHES MY HEAD" HMMM...

See the whole twist to Darby's teachings to me is that He 100% renounced all organized denominations than turned around and created his own denomination & doctrines!!!! LOL... IMAGINE THAT!!!!

From what I read in the Bible When Jesus returns all eyes will see..Yet in holly wood they perceive some kind of "secret rapture" where people just vanish and the others are left behind... isn't the name of the recent movie of the rapture called "left behind"???I guess the ppl that were left behind were "less saved" or the ppl that got raptured where"more righteous" ?? LOL

So do you believe Hollywood or the bible?? The bible I read said that for the elects sake the days of the tribulation will be shortened Matthew24:22.... Yet the ppl that ride or die for rapture doctrine say that the elect are the ones that get raptured before the tribulation ...Wait a minute that's confusing derrrrrrr I just brain farted!!!

So if we don't go through the great tribulation why does Jesus say for the elects sake those days will be shortened lest no flesh will be saved??? I thought you guys said that the elect are the ones that get raptured and come back with Jesus to gather the "less fortunate" "the less saved" "the lesser than elect kind of believers"???

SOMETHING IS NOT ADDING UP PEOPLE!! I could show many scriptures and we could all have a ping pong match with scripture and see who wins... LOL... IN REALITY JESUS WINS.. NOT YOU... NOT ME...JESUS..

I don't believe in any rapture doctrines.. Hows that... I believe what Jesus Said in the bible... There will be great deceptions... False teachings... False comings of Christ... PPL will be deceived...the great tribulation will happen.. no more moon light...they shall see the son of man appearing in Heaven... He will send his angels to gather the elect..

All the books in the bible agree with what Jesus taught in matthew 24 there are no contradictions...

Revelation 1:7 Behold he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him...

1 thessalonians 4: 13-18 agree , then those that are alive will be caught up together in the clouds...

I've heard the arguments WE ARE NOT DESTINED TO WRATH!!!! 1 THESSALONIANS 5:9-10 AND I AGREE 100%!! THE GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD IS NOT GODS WRATH ON HIS OWN PPL!! ITS A PERIOD OF SATAN ATTACKING THE SAINTS!!!

READ REVELATIONS CHAPTER 13 IN VERSE 7 IT SAYS POWER WAS GIVEN TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS READ VERSE 9 IT TALKS ABOUT THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS...ALL THE WAY AT THE END OF THE CHAPTER IT SAYS ALL WILL BE FORCED WITH A MARK... NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO BUY OR SELL...

IF YOU THINK YOUR PART OF SOME GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT ARE SO HOLLY THAT YOU GET TAKEN OUT BEFORE ALL THIS TAKES PLACE I THINK YOU ARE BEING GREATLY DECEIVED...

I THINK OUT OF FEAR MAN CREATED THIS DOCTRINE... JESUS SAID HIM SELF FEAR NOT WHAT MAN CAN DO TO BODY BUT TO FEAR HIM!!!!! MATTHEW 10:28. JESUS SUFFERED AND DIED/ JOHN THE BAPTIST SUFFERED AND DIED.. SO MANY PPL IN THE BIBLE SUFFERED AND DIED FOR THEIR FAITH YET SOMEHOW IN 2017 WE ARE SOME KIND OF CHOSEN PPL WE DON'T SUFFER WE GET SPARED FROM IT???

THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT SOME OF US MAY DIE BEFORE THIS HAPPENS... SOME OF US MAY DIE DURING THESE TIMES... SOME OF US MAY SURVIVE AND BE ALIVE AND NOT EXPERIENCE DEATH IN OUR NATURAL BODIES... DO I KNOW WHEN IT WILL HAPPEN? NO BUT JESUS WAS CLEAR FOR US TO WATCH FOR THE SIGNS WE WILL KNOW WHEN HIS RETURN IS NEAR AND FROM WHATS GOING ON IN AMERICA.. GAY MARRIAGE LEGAL...A HUGE TOLERANCE OF SIN IN THE FALSE CHURCHES....EARTH QUAKES... WARS...THE FALLING AWAY... THE DECEPTIONS.. WEIRD WEATHER... ETC

ITS CLEAR THAT HIS RETURN IS NEAR... ITS MAY BE WEEKS, MONTHS, YEARS, HUNDREDS OF YEARS...IDK BUT JESUS SAID BE SOBER, BE ALERT, BE AWARE, BE CONSCIOUS, STUDY HIS WORD, BE NOT DECEIVED..

STOP FOLLOWING EVERY BLOW OF WIND AND EVERY DOCTRINE YOU HEAR AND FOLLOW JESUS AND HIS TEACHING...

YES I KNOW ABOUT REV 3:10.... I'LL LET THE SUPER APOSTLES AND THE GREAT THEOLOGIANS BATTLE VERSE OVER THAT ONE...I GUESS THIS RELATES TO THE SECRET RAPTURE THAT JESUS NEVER SPOKE OF AND THAT HOLLYWOOD SURE PAINTS A PICTURE OF...

I READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER AND WHAT I GOT FROM IT WAS THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED AND SOME WONT AND JESUS WAS AND IS CALLING PPL TO REPENTANCE.

IN THE BOOK OF MATTHEW JESUS SAID MANY WILL SAY TO ME LORD LORD WE DID THIS WE DID THAT AND JESUS WILL SAY DEPART FROM ME I NEVER KNEW U..... THE BIBLE AGREES WITH IT SELF MEN MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND...

EVEN PAUL KNEW THIS TRUTH!!!! 2 CORINTHIANS 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Keep it simple... follow Jesus!!!

 

[Bladerunner]

OK first lets see about the wrath of God. When does it start? At the seventh Trumpet. When s the Rapture and second coming? At the seventh trumpet

How can the Bride be in Heaven receiving white and clean robes and going from Heaven on horses? Because a huge number that make up the Bride are already dead and return with him for their resurrection bodies. Paul when talking of the rapture says that the dead in Christ rise first. He also said that he couldnt decide which was better to remain here or be with the Lord. I'm fairly sure he isn't still here so I assume that he is with him in heaven along with every other righteous dead person. The only alternative is belief in Soul Sleep like the SDA and JWs.

However unpleasant it may be it remains that the believers in Christ are going to go through the tribulation. John sees those Martyred for theirwitness to Christ under the alter in chapter six. He is shown a great crowd that no one can count
in chapter 7 dressed in white robes coming out of the tribulation. these are the fellow servants tha those under the altar are told about. They are dead and join all those who are resurrected at the second coming. Paul tells us that we who are alive will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air but only after the dead are raised first. I should also mention that he never says a word about going off to heaven for seven years only that we will forever be with the Lord.

Regarding the Church/Saint issue. Throughout the NT letters believers are called Saints. As most of the letters are sent to Churches I think it is fairly obvious that the saints mentioned in them belong to a Church. This big issue about the word Church only being in the letters to the seven Churches and Saint being in the Seven letters can be understood by the fact the letters were sent to seven real churches to give praise and warnings to those only The rest of revelation is meant to have a universal application. In Rev 19 it says that the Lambs wife hasmade herself ready and is arrayed in fine white linen which is the righteousness of saints Who is the Lambs Wife? Answer - The Bride Who is Raptured? answer - The Bride of Christ which is his church made up of righteous saints so just because the word church is not used it doesnt mean the church isnt there in the tribulation because the description of the Saints coming out of the tribulation is identical with the Bride.

Tanakh.... Is this the mid-trib you speak of "When does it start? At the seventh Trumpet."

If the Rapture is Mid-Trib then 1. It could not be imminent which Jesus tells that us in (Matthew 24:36, Matthew 24:42-46, Matthew 25:13, Acts 1:7). Also, Where is the Antichrist here. He is not revealed until after the Rapture. The Tribulations (1st 3 1/2 years) therefore cannot start because according to Daniel 9:27, the Antichrist confirms a convenant with Many People (Israel) and someone else??????. So now we have two missing or if you do not think the covenant is made with Israel, then we have all three people of this covenant missing. What about the Temple... When does it get built? We have to have a temple so it can host the Abomination of Desolation by the antichrist. Then we would not have the remanent of Israel fleeing to Petra (mountain in the south). When does the WHORE ride the beast...Not in the 2nd 3 1/2 years for the Anti-christ kills her and takes over.

There are more but I simply ask you to explain each and every one of these variances from the pre-trib rapture to the Mid-trib Rapture.

"However unpleasant it may be it remains that the believers in Christ are going to go through the tribulation."


Jesus has told us through several different scriptures (I'll not list them here because you already know about them or would not have made such a statement as above.

 

[Bladerunner]

Yet another thread among countless ones about the pre-trib rapture. I hope all the people who reject it have no problem being left behind if it does happen.

PrynceNY.....It seems that you might be one of the ones left behind by what you said. " I hope all the people who reject it have no problem being left behind if it does happen."

 

[Bladerunner]

Absolutely fabricated hogwash. Where do you get off at --LOL? You don't get to just go around making wild non-existent unbiblical assertions like that. Good grief.

Nowhere in Scripture is there any reference to a multi-part "first resurrection"...where various parts of this resurrection happen here and there. You're fantasizing, literally. Irresponsible nonsense.

I mean...that is the most unbelievable nonsense. And believe me...NONE of PreTrib's recognized luminaries have ever dared come forward with such a concoction. And with good reason: It would be laughed out of any debate hall. It's pure concocted craziness.

No, the way PreTrib's big-wigs have dealt with this is to not deal with it at all. You're on your own with such cockamamie nonsense.

Hey bro, I don't follow your posts around the discussion board -- LOL! If you want to make an argument, make an argument. But the sheer presumption here is just nothing short of comedic...to summarily declare that some list you've compiled somewhere needs to be understood to be belatedly included in the "first resurrection" of Rev.20!

I think something has gone badly wrong somewhere. Don't know if I can be the one to help you.

MATTtoFAR:....... Hate to tell you but he is right. The 1st resurrection was initialed almost 2000 years ago and it is still in effect unto this day. The 2nd resurrection will be the DEAD that do not Believe in Jesus Christ. This Happens after the 1000 years of reign on this very earth by Jesus Christ. The White Throne Judgement takes these people that were just raise from the DEAD and pronounces Judgement on them. Their souls will burn in Hell for an eternity. Is this torture...Sure as Hades sounds like it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Absolutely fabricated hogwash. Where do you get off at --LOL? You don't get to just go around making wild non-existent unbiblical assertions like that. Good grief.

Hello MattTooFor,

It's called having a deeper understanding of God's word. performing a thorough exegesis. Let me ask you a question: If you think that there is only one phase to the first resurrection, what does Jesus' resurrection fall under? What does the churches resurrection fall under? What about the catching up of the 144,000? or the two witnesses? Those are all resurrections and they can't all take place at Rev.20:4-6.

You think the things that I share with you are foolish because they haven't been revealed to you yet. The word "first" in the verse does not men "only." The first resurrection could better be understood as, any resurrection that takes place prior to the one at the end of the thousand years. It just so happens that the phrase "first resurrection" is used here in Rev.20:4-6.

Another reason that the resurrection of the church cannot take place at Rev.20:4-6, is because it takes place after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which would mean that if the church was who was in view in Rev.20:4-6. that would mean that the living church would have to go through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer.

The resurrection there in Rev.20:4-6 is of those who will have kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. This would identify those being resurrected here as the great tribulation saints and them only.

Instead of jumping up and down and looking at these things as hogwash, why don't you try and learn something from those who have studied this information.

Jesus is the first fruits of the first resurrection

The church is next, which is our blessed hope

During the great tribulation both the male child/144,000 and two witnesses

After Christ returns to the earth the great tribulation saints are resurrected

All of the above fall under the banner of "first resurrection" whether you want to believe it or not.

The resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand years, which is the resurrection of the unrighteous dead, this resurrection is not apart of the first resurrection.

 

[MattTooFor]

It's called having a deeper understanding of God's word. performing a thorough exegesis.

You're not "exegeting" anything. Where is your "exegesis"? You're just doing your usual 'announcements'.

If you think that there is only one phase to the first resurrection, what does Jesus' resurrection fall under?

It falls under "Jesus' resurrection". What in the world -- LOL? The Bible says the event described in Rev.20:4-5 is "the first resurrection". You have no rebuttal to the Bible.

What does the churches resurrection fall under?

Well, there is no such thing as "the church". That's just a made up English word invented by dubious translators in olden times. But if you're referring to the "called out ones"...to the believers...Rev.20:4-5 IS referring to believers - those who were martyred.

What about the catching up of the 144,000?

What "catching up"?

or the two witnesses? Those are all resurrections and they can't all take place at Rev.20:4-6.

So?? What about the "two witnesses"? However it is categorized, it doesn't come under the category "first resurrection". That category is described in Rv. 20.

because they haven't been revealed to you yet.

The Bible is not for "private" interpretation that only people with mysterious occult powers can understand, the way you're claiming for yourself. If you want people to understand your beliefs, you need to get off your high horse and carefully explain from the Bible what you believe...instead of these silly claims of mysterious, superior "discernment" and how God has "revealed" things to you in creepy, occult fashion.

The word "first" in the verse does not men "only.

Rev. 20 says this was the "first resurrection". You have no rebuttal.

that would mean that the living church would have to go through the entire wrath of God

Incorrect. The wrath of God does not begin until moments after the appearance of the great cosmic signs...which are also the very same moments following which the believers are "gathered" by the angels. They're resurrected and/or raptured at that time and THEN does the wrath of God commence. This is specified in Joel 2:31, Matthew 24:29-31 and Rev. 6:12,16,17.

Joel 2:31 -- "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

But I've explained all of this to you repeatedly but you keep dodging the topic. Getting pretty obnoxious at this point.

The resurrection there in Rev.20:4-6 is of those who will have kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. This would identify those being resurrected here as the great tribulation saints and them only.

Do you understand the rudeness and discourtesy of blatantly and obnoxiously imposing your doctrines on what is supposed to be polite, gentlemanly discussion/debate?

why don't you try and learn something

Because you're not "teaching" anything. You're just making announcements.

All of the above fall under the banner of "first resurrection" whether you want to believe it or not.

The presumption built into your beliefs (wildly unbiblical beliefs, in my view) is a direct violation of scripture which states "he who simply assumes he knows something, does not yet know it as he ought".

 

[MattTooFor]

MATTtoFAR:....... Hate to tell you but he is right. The 1st resurrection was initialed almost 2000 years ago and it is still in effect unto this day.

One small problem with that: the Bible contradicts you two. Who should I go with? You or the Bible? The "first resurrection" is of the martyred believers from the Great Tribulation. I hate to tell you. (Actually, I don't hate to tell you - lol.)

 

[MattTooFor]

MATTtoFAR:....... Hate to tell you but he is right. The 1st resurrection was initialed almost 2000 years ago and it is still in effect unto this day.

So, just to repeat the theme of this thread -- PreTrib has an insurmountable problem because of the "first resurrection" issue.

There IS no event which happens prior to the 70th Week. No rapture and no resurrection. There isn't one scintilla of scripture. Not one shred. Not one passage anywhere in the Bible which describes a "rapture" or a "resurrection" prior to the 70th Week. A complete and total concoction.

Point to one passage. Take your time.

 

[MattTooFor]

I hope people realize the "rapture" is a man made doctrine?

Well...the "PreTrib" rapture is certainly man-made.

Yes the bible teaches that when Jesus returns He will send His angels to gather the elect Matthew 24: 30-31....I'm not going to attempt to argue on the matter because the bible is the final authority and unfortunately MEN twist Gods word..

Well, I think you should "argue" on behalf of God's Word. You certainly seem to be on the right track and with a lot of good common sense, as far as I'm concerned!

He will send his angels to gather the elect..

Amen, bro. Actually, that IS a "rapture". Although, you're right -- the word "gather" is more accurate. I don't care what word is used. They can use the word "banana" for all I care.

 

[SavedByGrace84]

Amen matt ty for the post keep on standing up for the truth!!!

 

[tanakh]

For the Lord Himself will decend from Heaven with a shout, with a voice of an archangel and with the Trumpet God.
And the dead in Chist will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
to meet the lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the time and the seasons brethren you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. For when they say Peace and safety then sudden destruction comes upon them as Labor pains on a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

1 Thessalonians 4 :16-5:3

This is an interesting passage. According to the Pre Trib view of things the rapture takes place before the seven year tribulation starts. According to Paul then sudden destruction comes upon the unsaved and they shall not escape.

Question is does sudden destruction qualify as lasting for seven years? According to Paul the sudden destruction comes
immediately as a result of the Lords coming and the rapture.

According to Jesus his coming will be as in the days of Noah, everything was going on as usual until the flood came and swept all the wicked away. Pre tribbers often use this story to support their version of events.
For everyone else sudden destruction means exactly what it says. The clue is found in the words sudden destruction not destruction after another seven years of temple building, worshipping the beast having a mark to buy and sell and holding parties to celebrate the death of the two witnesses.
The rapture and second coming happen at the seventh Trumpet when the wrath of God is unleashed. The destruction ofdthe wicked commences immediately after the tribulation.

 

[MattTooFor]

The clue is found in the words sudden destruction not destruction after another seven years of temple building, worshipping the beast having a mark to buy and sell and holding parties to celebrate the death of the two witnesses.

Exactly. There is no "sudden destruction" which occurs at the outset of the 70th Week (which PreTribbers mistakenly refer to as "the tribulation").

The anguish of unbelievers upon realizing their destruction is upon them...isn't seen until the wrath of God commences at the occasion of the great cosmic signs -- the sun, moon and stars. Seen in Rev. 6:12, 16, 17.

 

[popeye]

I hope people realize the "rapture" is a man made doctrine? Yes the bible teaches that when Jesus returns He will send His angels to gather the elect Matthew 24: 30-31....I'm not going to attempt to argue on the matter because the bible is the final authority and unfortunately MEN twist Gods word..

So when did this whole teaching start and who started it?? Instead of arguing bible verses lets go to the ROOT cause of this "rapture" business...Lets lay the ax to the root because its def not producing fruit on the matter..

Its definitely a fact that in 1830 a man named John Nelson Darby started the whole "rapture doctrine". Ok so my question to you is who or what do do you trust in???? HIS TEACHINGS OR THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS? Who has the final say on the matter in your life????

John Darby was a well known theologian of his day. He started off in the catholic church and realized the corruption in it so he left and started his own "denomination" called the "brethren/later know as Darbyites". I must say I read some of this mans teachings and I actually agree with some of it...Especially on his points of how corrupt ORGANIZED denominations are... He was right with some things wrong on others.. Aren't we all???

So whats my point?? Well with any other "great theologian" there are always errors.. Did Jesus really teach that before the great tribulation we will be "raptured' ????? In Matthew 24 the whole chapter Jesus gives detailed step by step info on whats going to happen, read it... In John 14:26 it says that God sent the Holly spirit to teach us all things and to bring remembrance to all things that Jesus taught....Was the holly spirit really using Darby to bring to remembrance the teachings of Christ??? I don't see it, what I do see is that He started a whole new teaching and now we are left with the after affects>>>>>> CONFUSION/DIVISION... WHO IS The AUTHOR OF CONFUSION/DIVISION??? "SCRATCHES MY HEAD" HMMM...

See the whole twist to Darby's teachings to me is that He 100% renounced all organized denominations than turned around and created his own denomination & doctrines!!!! LOL... IMAGINE THAT!!!!

From what I read in the Bible When Jesus returns all eyes will see..Yet in holly wood they perceive some kind of "secret rapture" where people just vanish and the others are left behind... isn't the name of the recent movie of the rapture called "left behind"???I guess the ppl that were left behind were "less saved" or the ppl that got raptured where"more righteous" ?? LOL

So do you believe Hollywood or the bible?? The bible I read said that for the elects sake the days of the tribulation will be shortened Matthew24:22.... Yet the ppl that ride or die for rapture doctrine say that the elect are the ones that get raptured before the tribulation ...Wait a minute that's confusing derrrrrrr I just brain farted!!!

So if we don't go through the great tribulation why does Jesus say for the elects sake those days will be shortened lest no flesh will be saved??? I thought you guys said that the elect are the ones that get raptured and come back with Jesus to gather the "less fortunate" "the less saved" "the lesser than elect kind of believers"???

SOMETHING IS NOT ADDING UP PEOPLE!! I could show many scriptures and we could all have a ping pong match with scripture and see who wins... LOL... IN REALITY JESUS WINS.. NOT YOU... NOT ME...JESUS..

I don't believe in any rapture doctrines.. Hows that... I believe what Jesus Said in the bible... There will be great deceptions... False teachings... False comings of Christ... PPL will be deceived...the great tribulation will happen.. no more moon light...they shall see the son of man appearing in Heaven... He will send his angels to gather the elect..

All the books in the bible agree with what Jesus taught in matthew 24 there are no contradictions...

Revelation 1:7 Behold he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him...

1 thessalonians 4: 13-18 agree , then those that are alive will be caught up together in the clouds...

I've heard the arguments WE ARE NOT DESTINED TO WRATH!!!! 1 THESSALONIANS 5:9-10 AND I AGREE 100%!! THE GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD IS NOT GODS WRATH ON HIS OWN PPL!! ITS A PERIOD OF SATAN ATTACKING THE SAINTS!!!

READ REVELATIONS CHAPTER 13 IN VERSE 7 IT SAYS POWER WAS GIVEN TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS READ VERSE 9 IT TALKS ABOUT THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS...ALL THE WAY AT THE END OF THE CHAPTER IT SAYS ALL WILL BE FORCED WITH A MARK... NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO BUY OR SELL...

IF YOU THINK YOUR PART OF SOME GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT ARE SO HOLLY THAT YOU GET TAKEN OUT BEFORE ALL THIS TAKES PLACE I THINK YOU ARE BEING GREATLY DECEIVED...

I THINK OUT OF FEAR MAN CREATED THIS DOCTRINE... JESUS SAID HIM SELF FEAR NOT WHAT MAN CAN DO TO BODY BUT TO FEAR HIM!!!!! MATTHEW 10:28. JESUS SUFFERED AND DIED/ JOHN THE BAPTIST SUFFERED AND DIED.. SO MANY PPL IN THE BIBLE SUFFERED AND DIED FOR THEIR FAITH YET SOMEHOW IN 2017 WE ARE SOME KIND OF CHOSEN PPL WE DON'T SUFFER WE GET SPARED FROM IT???

THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT SOME OF US MAY DIE BEFORE THIS HAPPENS... SOME OF US MAY DIE DURING THESE TIMES... SOME OF US MAY SURVIVE AND BE ALIVE AND NOT EXPERIENCE DEATH IN OUR NATURAL BODIES... DO I KNOW WHEN IT WILL HAPPEN? NO BUT JESUS WAS CLEAR FOR US TO WATCH FOR THE SIGNS WE WILL KNOW WHEN HIS RETURN IS NEAR AND FROM WHATS GOING ON IN AMERICA.. GAY MARRIAGE LEGAL...A HUGE TOLERANCE OF SIN IN THE FALSE CHURCHES....EARTH QUAKES... WARS...THE FALLING AWAY... THE DECEPTIONS.. WEIRD WEATHER... ETC

ITS CLEAR THAT HIS RETURN IS NEAR... ITS MAY BE WEEKS, MONTHS, YEARS, HUNDREDS OF YEARS...IDK BUT JESUS SAID BE SOBER, BE ALERT, BE AWARE, BE CONSCIOUS, STUDY HIS WORD, BE NOT DECEIVED..

STOP FOLLOWING EVERY BLOW OF WIND AND EVERY DOCTRINE YOU HEAR AND FOLLOW JESUS AND HIS TEACHING...

YES I KNOW ABOUT REV 3:10.... I'LL LET THE SUPER APOSTLES AND THE GREAT THEOLOGIANS BATTLE VERSE OVER THAT ONE...I GUESS THIS RELATES TO THE SECRET RAPTURE THAT JESUS NEVER SPOKE OF AND THAT HOLLYWOOD SURE PAINTS A PICTURE OF...

I READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER AND WHAT I GOT FROM IT WAS THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED AND SOME WONT AND JESUS WAS AND IS CALLING PPL TO REPENTANCE.

IN THE BOOK OF MATTHEW JESUS SAID MANY WILL SAY TO ME LORD LORD WE DID THIS WE DID THAT AND JESUS WILL SAY DEPART FROM ME I NEVER KNEW U..... THE BIBLE AGREES WITH IT SELF MEN MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND...

EVEN PAUL KNEW THIS TRUTH!!!! 2 CORINTHIANS 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Keep it simple... follow Jesus!!!

So when did this whole teaching start and who started it?? Instead of arguing bible verses lets go to the ROOT cause of this "rapture" business...Lets lay the ax to the root because its def not producing fruit on the matter..

Its definitely a fact that in 1830 a man named John Nelson Darby

Whoa, your goal and focus is outside the bible.

Wow,i was wondering when you guys would actually admit it.

 

[popeye]

For the Lord Himself will decend from Heaven with a shout, with a voice of an archangel and with the Trumpet God.
And the dead in Chist will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
to meet the lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the time and the seasons brethren you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. For when they say Peace and safety then sudden destruction comes upon them as Labor pains on a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

1 Thessalonians 4 :16-5:3

This is an interesting passage. According to the Pre Trib view of things the rapture takes place before the seven year tribulation starts. According to Paul then sudden destruction comes upon the unsaved and they shall not escape.

Question is does sudden destruction qualify as lasting for seven years? According to Paul the sudden destruction comes
immediately as a result of the Lords coming and the rapture.

According to Jesus his coming will be as in the days of Noah, everything was going on as usual until the flood came and swept all the wicked away. Pre tribbers often use this story to support their version of events.
For everyone else sudden destruction means exactly what it says. The clue is found in the words sudden destruction not destruction after another seven years of temple building, worshipping the beast having a mark to buy and sell and holding parties to celebrate the death of the two witnesses.
The rapture and second coming happen at the seventh Trumpet when the wrath of God is unleashed. The destruction ofdthe wicked commences immediately after the tribulation.

Then the 4 horsemen are what? a minor inconvenience?
4 [FONT=&quot]And there went out another horse that was red: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.[/FONT]
8 [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Just those two horsemen alone is enough to make you reconsider.[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Looks to me like millions or billions die and the face of the earth is changed.

and note you are saying that Peace and safety precedes your hypothesis,when it says right there peace and safety are taken from the earth.

You base your entire deal on "seventh trumpet",which is ok,but man do you have a mountain of scripture you can not possibly reconcile.[/FONT]

 

[popeye]

Well...the "PreTrib" rapture is certainly man-made.

Well, I think you should "argue" on behalf of God's Word. You certainly seem to be on the right track and with a lot of good common sense, as far as I'm concerned!

Amen, bro. Actually, that IS a "rapture". Although, you're right -- the word "gather" is more accurate. I don't care what word is used. They can use the word "banana" for all I care.

OK,stop your lies.

We already showed you a ton of verses.

You can say we are wrong,or the bible is wrong
Or Jesus is wrong etc.

But to say we teach a doctrine that is man made,when you can not even touch the resurrection,is just plain dishonesty on your part.

You have no verses to point to a post trib rapture. You have none, you have produced none.

That is WHY you go after our character. You can not honestly debate us so you "shoot the messenger"

 

[popeye]

Amen matt ty for the post keep on standing up for the truth!!!

...with no verses pointing to a post trib rapture. He NEVER HAS POSTED A SINGLE VERSE.

What do you consider truth?????

 

[popeye]

One small problem with that: the Bible contradicts you two. Who should I go with? You or the Bible? The "first resurrection" is of the martyred believers from the Great Tribulation. I hate to tell you. (Actually, I don't hate to tell you - lol.)

You guys say there is"only two"

How do you reconcile the patriarchs,Jesus,the two witnesses,and others before you "1 st resurrection"??????

 

[tanakh]

Then the 4 horsemen are what? a minor inconvenience?
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Just those two horsemen alone is enough to make you reconsider.

Looks to me like millions or billions die and the face of the earth is changed.

and note you are saying that Peace and safety precedes your hypothesis,when it says right there peace and safety are taken from the earth.

You base your entire deal on "seventh trumpet",which is ok,but man do you have a mountain of scripture you can not possibly reconcile.

One major problem you and many Pre tribbers have is failure to realise that Johns visions are not in a strict Chronological time line They are in the order that he received them. According to every Pre Trib scenerio I have read or heard of.the first tribulation event is the arrival of the Antichrist who makes a seven year peace treaty with Israel and breaks it after three and a half years. He creates a false sense of peace during that first half of the tribulation. When he breaks it all hell breaks loose. That is where Mid Tribbers claim that the rapture happens Paul says there is sudden destruction and they shall not escape. If all the things that the Horsemen bring take place the instant the rapture has happened as you seem to suggest that he is referring to then there would be no point in having a seven year tribulation period which is basically what I am trying to say in my post.

the Ironic thing about Pre trib eschatology is that it is held by some that it was originally invented by a Jesuit Priest to take the heat off the Pope to counter claims by the reformers who believed that he was the Antichrist. He placed a secret coming of Jesus and the appearance of the Antichrist at some undetermined time in the future thus avoiding the charge. People who believe in it still have an issue with the RCC but hang on to the biggest Heresy in their arsenal
with the help of John Darby and company who created a cult supporting it.

 

[tanakh]

Then the 4 horsemen are what? a minor inconvenience?
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Just those two horsemen alone is enough to make you reconsider.

Looks to me like millions or billions die and the face of the earth is changed.

and note you are saying that Peace and safety precedes your hypothesis,when it says right there peace and safety are taken from the earth.

You base your entire deal on "seventh trumpet",which is ok,but man do you have a mountain of scripture you can not possibly reconcile.

This is a supplement to my earlier reply

You say there is a mountain of scripture I cant possibly reconcile. Paul didnt have a New Testament when he wrote Thessalonians. It was many years later that John received Revelation so all the details including the vision of the four horsemen were unknown to him and the Thessalonians who read his letters. So what he did say is exactly what he was led to believe at that time and what the Church believed for almost two thousand years. Also if the Pre Trib position were true we wouldnt have to wait until the nineteenth century before the knowledge of it became so widely known.