probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots

MacBestus · Dec 8, 2016

At this point bluster does not disguise the fact you refuse to face a word in its original language because it convicts your point of view.

HRM Is not the prententious one calling people foolish and dictating which bibles are acceptable while declining to define what that bibles words mean in modern English.

Especially when that bible is a translation (English) of a translation (latin) from the original koine Greek. This is not to disparage the KJV

I use it myself often. It is to point out that sometimes we need to validate definitions when there are translation differences.

We are called to study to show ourselves aproved. Not to choose a version that meets what we want to be true and not look at any confusing definitions that will muck about with our personal theology.

Sin doctrine practitioners always have to call HRM Pharisee or Carnal or Jew when they are loosing ground. You managed all three in one post. Yet this has little bearing on reality. HRM is a Grace Doctrine no matter how badly you want it to preach law salvation. Just like no matter how badly you want Peter to not say what he did, or how much you bluster and gesticlate about the KJV it doesn't change the fact you have discredited your argument.

I am open minded. But I am a Berean. As are many on this board. I am not attacking you with "Jewish Fables"

This is the apostle Peter. King James does not outrank him.

Peace be with you.

sparty-g · Dec 8, 2016

Dan_473 said:

Hi Dan. I don't mean this to be judgmental or mean-spirited; it's an honest question: Are you studying Torah to find out how to keep the commands, or studying them to identify what you would consider to be absurd conclusions so that you can decide to avoid keeping them? I ask this because I would think that if you honestly concluded that using electricity is a violation of keeping the Sabbath day holy, and you were honest with yourself about wanting to keep the Sabbath holy, then you would make the choice to avoid using electricity on the Sabbath day. But if you're concluding that using electricity is a violation of keeping the Sabbath day holy, but also feel it is absurd to avoid using electricity, and thus trying to keep the Sabbath day holy is a worthless and silly effort, then I don't think we can continue our conversations, because it would be obvious to us Torah-observant folks that you're not sincere about keeping the Torah, but are trying to demonstrate to us Torah-observant folks that it's worthless and silly to even try. Again, honest question, not judgmental or mean-spirited -- just trying to figure out your true aim and motive so I can decide how, or even whether or not, to continue these discussions. I don't have a lot of free time, and I'd rather not spend it on someone who is trying to make me feel silly about what I believe. You seem inquisitive and honestly seeking, so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, but it's difficult to assess people's true intentions through online forums. I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but it's not my intention. Either way, be blessed.

Dan_473 · Dec 9, 2016

sparty-g said:

I believe you've presented a false dichotomy... those aren't the only two choices.

I study Torah to gain wisdom.

about my intentions, my goal now is hopefully the one I talked about in the op... to say that roots folks decide for themselves how they will follow the rules.

which I understood you to be agreeing with
when you wrote
' Now it's up to you to consult Scripture, the Holy Spirit, other people knowledgeable in the Scriptures, etc., and work it out with the Lord.'

GandalfTheWhite · Dec 9, 2016

Dan_473 said:

Aaah so you do form part of the Hebrew Roots movement

?

Just kidding brother. Fly your kite on the Sabbath and en enjoy it .....

MacBestus · Dec 9, 2016

Dan_473 said:

Grace777x70 said:

Your whole argument. Is predicated on the belief that paul only spoke against keeping torah. It doesn't hold up to scripture.

It also does not hold up to Peter.

Why do you not address 2 Peter?

garee · Dec 9, 2016

MacBestus said:

Paul did not speak against the law.He helped us to understand because Christ did all the work required as a sacrifice as a finished work . we can keep it by guarding it closely with all our heart soul and mind. No man could keep with violating the least of the law.

No man will be found with a righteousness of their own selves, rather than the righteousness of God. No man can serve two masters.We either serve the Spirit of Christ that indwells the believer of the flesh of unconverted man.

The Judaizers that refuse to acknowledge the first century refomation, do. It is why Christ wrote the book of Hebrews to be against them so that they do not do what they want by glorying in the flesh of the forefathers

Grace777x70 · Dec 9, 2016

garee said:

Well said...modern day Judaizers that try to get Christians to live by the law of Moses after coming to Christ will sometimes try to use 2 Peter to say that people are distorting the scriptures because Paul is hard to understand. The message of Christ alone for life and salvation is a stumbling block to the Jewish mindset which is all based on the law of Moses.

The preaching of Christ alone for life and living is a major stumbling block to the extreme sects of HRM that are in effect denying the finished work of Christ and are replacing Him for the law of Moses. It is an anti-Christ belief system.

The truth is that these Judaizers are in fact the very ones distorting Paul to try to make it look like he kept the law of Moses as in the Sabbath and observing feasts....etc.

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.

The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work.

Hebrews 4:10 We are to cease from our own work and enter into what Christ has done. Christ Himself is our Sabbath rest. The Sabbath speaks of Christ and we have Him now if we are in fact "in Christ".

9507 · Dec 9, 2016

Hi, I can't find anywhere in the Scriptures where the Sabbath was changed to a different day. Please provide me with Scriptures to support moving the Sabbath to a different day.

Dan_473 · Dec 9, 2016

MacBestus said:

hi MacBestus,

who is your post addressed to?

both Grace777x70 and I are quoted in it.

FreeNChrist · Dec 9, 2016

9507 said:

The Sabbath hasn't changed. It has always been about the eternal rest that was to be, and now is, available to us in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Dan_473 · Dec 9, 2016

9507 said:

hi 9507

I don't think the folks on this thread believe the Sabbath was moved to a different day.

I have met some folks here on CC who do say that... I believe they usually base it on church tradition.

sparty-g · Dec 9, 2016

Dan_473 said:

With regards to proper Christian obedience after salvation, what you and I describe above is standard operating procedure (SOP) for most Protestant and non-denominational Christians. The only ones who may differ from this approach are those who belong to denominations where they dogmatically accept whatever is passed down to them, such as Catholics, Mormons, etc. The Protestant Reformation is what opened up this SOP to Christendom en masse. This is not unique to HRM, so your charge that it is a weakness of HRM is misplaced. MacBestus has done well in refuting several other false charges that have come up against HRM in this thread.

You say you study the Torah for wisdom. Ok, so I'm interested to see what you do now that you've concluded through your study that using electricity is a violation of keeping the Sabbath day. Will you discontinue your use of electricity on the seventh day in order to honor the Lord with regards to the Sabbath day, or will you continue to do what you believe is a violation of keeping the Sabbath day?

You say I present a false dichotomy, but you really only have two choices moving forward: use electricity on the Sabbath day or not. And if you truly believe that using electricity is a violation of keeping the Sabbath day, then your choice moving forward will clearly tell us Torah-observant folks which camp you belong in with regards to your "study of Torah for wisdom": (1) those who study the Torah to learn what God expects of them with regards to keeping the commands and applying them appropriately; or (2) those who do not study it with that intention. If you're just talking about wisdom generally (e.g., when G7 says below "we read the law to see Jesus in it"), then you're in camp #2. But if you're choosing to walk in God's Torah commands through application in practical manners regarding your daily life, then you're in camp #1 with us Torah-observant folks.

And to clarify, I will again repeat that with regards to electricity, your conclusion that using it is a violation of the Sabbath day is in the extreme minority of the HRM Torah-observant camp. To be honest, I've never personally conversed with another HRM person who has come to that same conclusion. It is your conclusion that it is a violation of the Sabbath day, which puts you in the bind you're in now about whether you choose to keep the Sabbath day according to the manner your studies have concluded, or to ignore it and move on with your life. You've placed yourself in the dichotomy I describe above, to which your response will tell us whether or not you believe the Sabbath command should be kept.

To sum it up simply: if you truly believe that using electricity is a violation of the Sabbath command, then your choice to discontinue use of electricity shows that you believe in keeping the Sabbath command (i.e., not violating it), but your continued use shows that you believe the Sabbath command does not need to be kept (i.e., it's alright to violate it).

For the record, I do not believe that electricity use is a violation of the Sabbath, and I believe you've made an error in judgment and should take a step back to again assess what it means to keep the Sabbath day using all the manners of recourse that I have previously described. But I'm honest enough with myself to say that I know I could be wrong. If I am wrong, though I would be stumbling in this area, I believe that God forgives me through His grace and mercy. He knows that in my heart I am not a lawless person who scoffs at His Torah commands, but someone who studies them diligently to walk as He wills and in the example of our Messiah's walk, following the leading of the Holy Spirit, in meditation on the Word, and in consultation with brothers and sisters of faith. I'm running the race, as Paul says, and I intend to end in a way where my Master will say to me, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

So, which is it for you: use electricity or not?

sparty-g · Dec 9, 2016

9507 said:

Hi 9507. This isn't a thread about which day is the Sabbath day, but the Scriptures make it abundantly clear that the Sabbath day is the seventh day of the week, from sundown to sundown. Its move to the first day of the week was done by Roman Catholic authority. Many on this forum believe that there is no need to rest on the Sabbath day, in accordance with the command, but that a believer's "rest" is in the Messiah.

I personally believe our eternal rest is in Messiah, which is available to us now, but that God still wants us to rest on the seventh day of the week while we are still in physical bodies on this physical earth.

Blik · Dec 9, 2016

My understanding and study of scripture through the HRM is much different from what I read about here.

My study is that of accepting all scripture as scripture we are to learn for our benefit. The first five books gives the principles of the Lord, and through their help I can understand the culture of the people the Lord used to explain His principles. The wisdom books give me wisdom, the gospels are how Christ was the way the mysteries of the OT was shown us, the letters are commentaries on the principles of the Lord.

There are two principles that guide all understanding. One is to love the Lord completely and to love the people (without judging) the people the Lord created. The other is that there is only one Holy God who never changes, He is who forgives our sins through the blood of Christ. Christ was from the beginning.

I can't see failings in this. Rather, it seems to me there is failings in the idea that God changes, or Christ is a new God not related to the Father, or we can ignore the OT.

sparty-g · Dec 9, 2016

Getting back to the main topic of this thread, it started off being about the "greatest weaknesses of HRM", but the detractors have neglected to consider what could be its greatest strength (its trump card): it advocates a Christian walk that uses the Messiah's perfect walk as our example. And the HRM case for studying and applying the Torah commands is because they are a part of God's revealed will for mankind and served as the basis for the Messiah's walk -- as a rule, He never violated them, He was without sin. And the Scriptures implore us to walk as He walked (cf. 1 John 2:6).

The HRM movement doesn't (or at least shouldn't) preach perfection. None of us are perfect in our walks on this earth -- we all stumble somewhere. But what convinces me that the doctrinal basis of HRM is correct is what I call its trump card above: When God came in the flesh as our Messiah, this is how He walked! Really think about that for a second. God has a will for mankind. He has revealed that will through His prophets throughout the history of mankind (which includes the Torah commands as revealed through Moses). And when He came in the flesh as a man Himself, He fully lived out that will. The perfect life. The life to which we should set our eyes as our example. In Him was no sin. If he had violated the Torah commands, He would have been found in sin. Instead, He kept them and He even revealed to us a deeper meaning to them -- a fuller picture of how God wants us to live our lives. And He continues to reveal that through His apostles, His written Word, and the Holy Spirit.

So my question to the non-Torah-observant folks is: Do you want to walk as Messiah walked, or no? I've asked this before on this forum and, though surprised, I got the answer I was expecting: No, some non-Torah-observant folks do not want to walk as He walked, specifically as it relates to Torah. Torah was important to Him, but it is argued that it should not be important to us believers for various reasons: He was born "under the Law", He preached and taught during the "Old Covenant period", His Torah obedience was only functional (to qualify as a sin offering, and that is all), He was Jewish and many of us are not, etc.

One thing I cannot personally do is trade the example of how God Himself lived when He became flesh as our Messiah, for the interpretations and theological arguments of others. The life the Messiah lived is historical fact. Maybe we differ on how we think the Messiah walked, but I would think we should at least be in agreement that we should study His walk and do our best to walk likewise. And, in my opinion, if you're going to consider His walk, then you will need to consider how Torah factored into it. That is why we Torah-observant folks do what we do -- e.g., that is why I am going to avoid eating that piece of pork bacon, and observe other things that God commanded through Moses and His other prophets, because that's how my Messiah walked and I believe God wills the same for me.

So, for the sake of discussion (I'm not trying to be judgmental), if we all desire to follow God's will and walk as Messiah walked, please help me to understand how we've arrived at different conclusions. Do you believe that the Messiah's walk differs from how I have depicted it (sinless and without violation of the Torah commands), or do you believe that we are not to walk as the Messiah walked? I think it has to be one or the other -- I can't think of an option C, but please share if you have one.

Blessings to you all.

sparty-g · Dec 9, 2016

Blik said:

With regards to your last sentence, I believe the seeds of Marcionism have sprouted historically alongside the development of the Christian faith. Christians today don't actually believe that the God of the Hebrew Bible is a wrathful, evil god who had to be overcome and defeated by the all-forgiving Messiah-god, Jesus. But you can see seeds of its dualistic influence: the belief that the Messiah's commands are not the same as the Father's commands (e.g., whenever a verse is posted about Messiah talking about "My commands" or a disciple referencing "His commands", people draw a line and say those commands are not the same as the Father's commands given prior to the first century AD); a preference for NT writings as a guide to Christians over OT writings (e.g., the argument "but that's in the Old Testament" or avoiding any association with "Old Testament religion"); a rejection for commands, lifestyles, or viewpoints considered "Jewish" (e.g., the argument that Christians don't keep "Jewish holidays" -- when in fact they are only ever called God's holy days in the Scriptures), an overemphasis on Pauline traditions (e.g., regardless of what God has revealed through His prophets, or how the Messiah walked, or what His other disciples taught, always falling back on the argument "but Paul said" and using their interpretation of Pauline theology as the first filter for understanding much of everything else), and much more. I'm not saying everyone on this forum is guilty of all of these things, but these can be seen within the body of believers more broadly. And I'm also not saying these people even know who Marcion was or have studied his works and influence -- maybe they have genuinely come to these conclusions themselves in their sincere attempt to follow the Messiah -- but these strands of thinking can be seen throughout the historical development of the Christian faith, or at the very least we can see parallels to this manner of thinking.

9507 · Dec 9, 2016

We keep the Sabbath because Yahuah tells us to. His law has never changed as He said He shall not change in Mal'aki 3:6.

One other question:
In Yohanan (John) 5:43 Our Messiah said, "I have come in My Father's Name and you do not receive Me, if another comes in his own name, him you would receive."

What is His Father's Name?

Dan_473 · Dec 9, 2016

sparty-g said:

With regards to proper Christian obedience after salvation, what you and I describe above is standard operating procedure (SOP) for most Protestant and non-denominational Christians. The only ones who may differ from this approach are those who belong to denominations where they dogmatically accept whatever is passed down to them, such as Catholics, Mormons, etc. The Protestant Reformation is what opened up this SOP to Christendom en masse. This is not unique to HRM, so your charge that it is a weakness of HRM is misplaced. MacBestus has done well in refuting several other false charges that have come up against HRM in this thread.

You say you study the Torah for wisdom. Ok, so I'm interested to see what you do now that you've concluded through your study that using electricity is a violation of keeping the Sabbath day. Will you discontinue your use of electricity on the seventh day in order to honor the Lord with regards to the Sabbath day, or will you continue to do what you believe is a violation of keeping the Sabbath day?

You say I present a false dichotomy, but you really only have two choices moving forward: use electricity on the Sabbath day or not. And if you truly believe that using electricity is a violation of keeping the Sabbath day, then your choice moving forward will clearly tell us Torah-observant folks which camp you belong in with regards to your "study of Torah for wisdom": (1) those who study the Torah to learn what God expects of them with regards to keeping the commands and applying them appropriately; or (2) those who do not study it with that intention. If you're just talking about wisdom generally (e.g., when G7 says below "we read the law to see Jesus in it"), then you're in camp #2. But if you're choosing to walk in God's Torah commands through application in practical manners regarding your daily life, then you're in camp #1 with us Torah-observant folks.

And to clarify, I will again repeat that with regards to electricity, your conclusion that using it is a violation of the Sabbath day is in the extreme minority of the HRM Torah-observant camp. To be honest, I've never personally conversed with another HRM person who has come to that same conclusion. It is your conclusion that it is a violation of the Sabbath day, which puts you in the bind you're in now about whether you choose to keep the Sabbath day according to the manner your studies have concluded, or to ignore it and move on with your life. You've placed yourself in the dichotomy I describe above, to which your response will tell us whether or not you believe the Sabbath command should be kept.

To sum it up simply: if you truly believe that using electricity is a violation of the Sabbath command, then your choice to discontinue use of electricity shows that you believe in keeping the Sabbath command (i.e., not violating it), but your continued use shows that you believe the Sabbath command does not need to be kept (i.e., it's alright to violate it).

For the record, I do not believe that electricity use is a violation of the Sabbath, and I believe you've made an error in judgment and should take a step back to again assess what it means to keep the Sabbath day using all the manners of recourse that I have previously described. But I'm honest enough with myself to say that I know I could be wrong. If I am wrong, though I would be stumbling in this area, I believe that God forgives me through His grace and mercy. He knows that in my heart I am not a lawless person who scoffs at His Torah commands, but someone who studies them diligently to walk as He wills and in the example of our Messiah's walk, following the leading of the Holy Spirit, in meditation on the Word, and in consultation with brothers and sisters of faith. I'm running the race, as Paul says, and I intend to end in a way where my Master will say to me, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

So, which is it for you: use electricity or not?

' The Protestant Reformation is what opened up this SOP to Christendom en masse. This is not unique to HRM, so your charge that it is a weakness of HRM is misplaced.'

you are correct about the sop being used by most protestants.
the key difference is that hrm has a strong rules focus, while (hopefully) most christians have a direction focus.

FreeNChrist · Dec 9, 2016

9507 said:

If you do not recognize that through the Cross God has changed everything, then of course the best you can hope for is being a good Jew. Unfortunately being a good Jew never saved anyone.

Grace777x70 · Dec 9, 2016

1 John 2:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

How did Jesus walk? First He was born under the law of Moses to redeem those that were under the Law. He fulfilled all the law of Moses and we are in Him now joined as one spirit to the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17

We have died to the law of Moses SO THAT we could be joined to another - Christ Himself. Romans 7:6

Romans 7:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Bearing fruit comes from being joined to Christ and dead to the law of Moses. We do not go back to the law of Moses for life and living now that we are joined to another - that is called committing spiritual adultery on our Lord. The law is a shadow. Christ Himself is the substance. Romans 7: 1-6

I love the truth of how Jesus lived. He was born under to the law, He ministered to those that were under the law so that He could redeem them from being under the law.

Galatians 4:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] so that He might redeem those who were under the Law,that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Christians - have nothing to do with the law of Moses now - other than to see Christ in them as He has fulfilled the law. We are now sons/daughters of God and live by His life that is in us now.

Jesus said that He lived by the Father inside of Him. He said that it is the Father inside Him who is doing His works - not Jesus. He could do nothing of His own initiative.

As Jesus lived by the life of the Father in Him - with total dependence on His life - so we too live by the life of Christ inside of us manifesting His life as a fruit of our union as one spirit with Christ. We too can do nothing without Christ.

We live now from the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of love, the law of liberty in Christ, the law of faith ( the law is NOT of faith ) , the law of Christ Himself.

These laws of Christ Himself will manifest His life in and through us and we will not need to "obey" an external law as in Lev. 18:23 to not have sex with animals. The life of Christ will keep us from doing that. We can trust Him inside of us who is our life.

probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots

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