Questions and doubts

DeanDenizen · Nov 1, 2017

I tried to get answers in the chat room but it was too confusing to keep up with, so I'm posting here. Can someone explain why my thinking is incorrect?

The problem I'm having concerns free will. If God is all-knowing, wouldn't he know every action any of his creations would make? If so, wouldn't he have known that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit? Wouldn't he know Satan would rebel, and then beguile them in the garden? Why did he leave the tree there for Adam and Eve to be tempted over? All I can think is that God wanted man to fall. Why would he have made the conditions so perfect for it to happen if not?

I feel like we can only choose from possibilities that God places before us. He, being the only creative force in the universe, created all possibility, as the only limits and allowances are those he placed within his creation. Any actions we are capable of taking are within the limits and allowances he placed upon us, and so he provided us the ability, and the space in which, to sin. Going off of that, I don't understand what purpose there is in having us going through this process of temptation, just to flounder at every turn. I've been told it's to make us love and appreciate God, but I don't understand why we have to live in this violent, horrifying world, full of murder, rape, war, etc. when God could have opened our eyes in any way he could imagine. He's God, after-all.

tourist · Nov 1, 2017

There are many here that are more qualified to give an answer to you questions about free will. This world is violent because of sin. You can live for God and help alleviate the pain that results from sin or you can live for yourself and ignore the pain. This is free will also. The most in-depth conversations take place in the forums, also a genuine opportunity for Christian fellowship. Glad to have you as part of the conversation. Welcome to CC.

Yeraza_Bats · Nov 1, 2017

DeanDenizen said:

We make our own choices, and we are held to our choices. No one makes us sin, we choose to do wrong. Satan and his angels chose to do wrong. God is not responsible for our wrong choices.

I dont know why you dont believe God didnt know wed sin? Where do you get that? Is it hard to imagine that He would let us sin, and then use our sins to show us that we were wrong, in order to guide us to do right? The consequences of our actions are clear examples of why wrong is wrong. It leads to two outcomes, that we accept wrong is wrong, and turn from doing wrong and repent, or ignore the warnings and pridefully continue in our own ways.

We are told that the wheat will be separated from the weeds.

dcontroversal · Nov 1, 2017

Dean, these questions have plagued more than a handful for some time.....it is a difficult thing for many to accept....God made all...including the wicked for the day of evil....and yes God knows all choices that everyone, including angels, will make....He knew what Judas would do and gave scripture ahead of schedule, he knew what Pharaoh would do and said for this reason have I raised you up, He knew what Cyrus would do and called him the servant of God (my Servant Cyrus<--a Persian king) He knows who will believe, who will not believe etc......Many are called and few are chosen (based upon their response) and it even states that NOT MANY rich, prideful etc. are called......

My view......this grand experiment under the sun by God was designed to give every spirit in his kingdom a chance to choose between His kingdom and or the fallen kingdom of the beast (SATAN).....there are a handful of verses that seem to point to this and I personally believe the book of JOB holds a deeper meaning than the obvious....

The spirit that man has returns unto God that gave it and HE KNEW Jeremiah before he came forth from his mother's womb...the words used accurately describe a personal relationship and or in a forensic sense.......

Just my view and I am sure many will reject this.....but the hints seem to be found in the bible if but subtle......

Marcelo · Nov 1, 2017

DeanDenizen said:

I tried to get answers in the chat room but it was too confusing to keep up with, so I'm posting here. Can someone explain why my thinking is incorrect?

The problem I'm having concerns free will. If God is all-knowing, wouldn't he know every action any of his creations would make? If so, wouldn't he have known that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit? Wouldn't he know Satan would rebel, and then beguile them in the garden? Why did he leave the tree there for Adam and Eve to be tempted over? All I can think is that God wanted man to fall. Why would he have made the conditions so perfect for it to happen if not?

I feel like we can only choose from possibilities that God places before us. He, being the only creative force in the universe, created all possibility, as the only limits and allowances are those he placed within his creation. Any actions we are capable of taking are within the limits and allowances he placed upon us, and so he provided us the ability, and the space in which, to sin. Going off of that, I don't understand what purpose there is in having us going through this process of temptation, just to flounder at every turn. I've been told it's to make us love and appreciate God, but I don't understand why we have to live in this violent, horrifying world, full of murder, rape, war, etc. when God could have opened our eyes in any way he could imagine. He's God, after-all.

Free will and predestination are contradictory concepts, but both are true. If today you believe that Jesus is the son of the living God, this is predestination, but if tomorrow you reject Him, this is free will. So, do your best to follow Jesus throughout your life.

Hizikyah · Nov 1, 2017

I want to show in Scripture we do have free will,than I will give my views at the bottom.

Psalm 11:4, "יהוה is in His holy temple; יהוה throne is in heaven;His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men."

Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve יהוה, choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve יהוה.”

John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”

“chooses” is word #G2309 θέλω thelo (the'-lō) v., ἐθέλω ethelo (e-the'-lō) , 1. to determine, i.e. choose or prefer., 2. (by implication) to wish, i.e. be inclined to., 3. (sometimes adverbially) gladly., 4. (impersonally for the future tense) to be about to., 5. (by Hebraism) to delight in., {literally or figuratively; as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations}, [apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138], KJV: desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)) , Root(s): G138, Compare: G140, G1014

1 Corinthians 10:13, "No trial has overtaken you except such as is common to man, and YHWH is trustworthy, who shall not allow you to be tried beyond what you are able, but with the trial shall also make the way of escape, enabling you to bear it."

Genesis 2:16, “And יהוה Ylohim commanded the man, saying, “Eat of every tree of the garden, but do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day that you eat of it you shall certainly die.”

Deuteronomy 30:19-20, “I have called the heavens and the earth as witnesses today against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore you shall choose life, so that you live, both you and your seed, to love יהוה your Strength, to obey His voice, and to cling to Him – for He is your life and the length of your days – to dwell in the land which יהוה swore to your fathers, to Aḇraham, to Yitsḥaq, and to Ya‛aqoḇ, to give them.”
Psalm 9:7-8, “But יהוה abides forever, He is preparing His throne for judgment. And He judges the world in righteousness, He judges the peoples in straightness.”

Malachi 3:16-18, “Then those who reverenced יהוה spoke often one to another, and יהוה paid attention and heard them; and a Book of Remembrance was written in His presence of those who gave reverence to יהוה, and who thought upon His Name; And they will be Mine! says יהוה of hosts. In that day when I make up My jewels I will spare them, as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you will return, and again discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who servesיהוה, and him who does not serve Him.”

This is a test to see who is fit for the Kingdom of Yah. For the Gospel is about how to enter the Kingdom/Reign of Yah.

Matthew 10:7, “And as you go, proclaim, saying, ‘The reign of the heavens has drawn near.”

Mat 4:17, "From that time יהושע began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”

Matthew 24:14, "“And this Good News of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come."

Mark 1:15, “and (John) saying, “The time has been filled, and the reign of Yah has come near. Repent, and believe in the Good News.”

Mark 1:15, “And (John) saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom (932) of Yah is at hand; repent (3340) and believe in the gospel (2098).”

Luke 4:43, "And He said to them, “To the other cities I also have to bring the Good News: the reign of Yah, because for this I have been sent.”

Luke 8:1, "And it came to be, afterward, that He went through every city and village, proclaiming and bringing the Good News of the reign of Yah, and the twelve were with Him,"

Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Yah knows the end from the beginning;

Ecclesiastes 3:11, “He has made it all, beautiful in its time. Even the ages He has put in their hearts, except that no one finds out the work that Yah does from beginning to end.”

Isaiah 46:10, “declaring the end from the beginning, and from of old that which has not yet been done, saying, ‘My counsel does stand, and all My delight I do,”

We might not understand everything, but without the option of going the wrong way it would be no test. There has to be a possibility to choose the right or wrong way. And the right way may not always seem to be what we want or prefer, but it iswhat is best for us to walk in His will

2 Corinthians 12:10, “Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in
needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for the sake of Messiah. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

2 Timothy 1:7, "For Yah has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power and of love and of self-control."

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."[/FONT]

Luke 14:15-24, “And when one of those who sat at the table with Him heard this, he said to Him, “Blessed is he who eats bread in the reign of YHWH! But He said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, and he sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, ‘Come, for all is now ready.’ But one by one they all began making excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a field, and I need to go and see it. I ask you to have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to try them out. I ask you to have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have married a wife, and because of this I am unable to come.’ And that servant came and reported this to his master. Then the master of the house, being wroth, said to his servant, ‘Hurry out into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor, and crippled, and lame, and blind.’ And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’ And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the street corners and hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house is filled. For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.”

Hizikyah · Nov 1, 2017

Here we can see even satan and the messengers (angels, turned demons when they went astray)

Revelation 12:3-4, “And another sign was seen in the heaven: and see, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on his heads. And his tail draws a third of the stars of the heaven and throws them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, to devour her child as soon as it was born.”

Revelation 12:7-9, “And there came to be fighting in the heaven: Miḵa’ĕl and his messengers fought against the dragon. And the dragon and his messengers fought, but they were not strong enough, nor was a place found for them in the heaven any longer. And the great dragon was thrown out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who leads all the world astray. He was thrown to the earth, and his messengers were thrown out with him."

Ezekiyl 28:13-19, “You were in Ĕḏen, the garden of the MostHigh. Every precious stone was your covering: the ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, shoham, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald and gold. The workmanship of your settings and mountings was prepared for you on the day you were created. You were the anointed keruḇ that covered. And I placed you, you were on the set-apart mountain of Yah. You walked up and down in the midst of stones of fire. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you. By the greatness of your trade you became filled with violence within, and you sinned. So I thrust you from the mountain of Yah, and I destroyed you, O covering keruḇ, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your loveliness, you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendour. I threw you to the earth, I laid you before sovereigns, to look at you. You profaned your set-apart places by your many crookednesses, by the unrighteousness of your trading. Therefore I brought forth fire from your midst. It has devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth before the eyes of all who see you. All who knew you among the peoples were astonished at you. Waste you shall be, and cease to be, forever.”

Isayah 14:12-16, “How you have fallen from heaven, child of the light! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart; “I will ascend above the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of YHWH. I will sit in the highest place on the holy mountain ofthe congregation. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.” Yet you will be brought down to Sheol; the grave, to the sides ofthe pit. Those who see you will stare at you, and they will talk about you, saying; Is this the one; the adversary, who shook the earth, and made kingdoms tremble?”

He will not force us to follow Him we must do so of our own accord and we can not do so in the manner we choose, but rather He is Creator of all, we must accept His ways and what He has provided. In faith and work, not our own works, but His. If you pay me to mow your lawn and tell me specific directions on how to do it, and I ow your lawn but not in the fashion you tell me to I have not done what I was told, but chose my own way. The cut stone represents our own way, the natural stone represents His way, Yah only accepts natural stones. That choose His way, none are forced.

1 Peter 2:4-5, “Drawing near to Him, a living Stone – rejected indeed by men, but chosen by Yah and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up, a spiritual house, a set-apart priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifice offerings acceptable to Yah through יהושע Messiah.”

Exodus 20:25, “And if you make Me an altar of stone, do not build it of cut stone, for if you use your chisel on it, you have profaned it.”

James 1:12, “Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him.”

JairCrawford · Nov 1, 2017

Scripture states that God does not tempt us, ever. And never does it state that He placed the tree in there specifically to test them. There is much more than meets the eye with the whole tree in the garden. Good stuff to get into.

As for the why; God knew what would happen before it happened. He created anyway. And He gave us free will. It's not something we can really wrap our minds around fully, but what my mind -can- wrap around is that all of creation points to the Creator, and that all of those terrible things that happen, He does not approve of.

Hizikyah · Nov 1, 2017

Psalm 143:1-8, “Hear my prayer, O יהוה, Give ear to my pleadings In Your trustworthiness. Answer me in Your righteousness. And do not enter into right-ruling with Your servant, For before You no one living is in the right. For the enemy has pursued my being; He has crushed my life to the ground; He has made me dwell in dark places, Like the dead of old. Therefore my spirit grew faint within me, My heart within me is stunned. I remembered the days of old; I meditated on all Your works; I ponder on the work of Your hands. I have spread out my hands to You; My being is like a thirsty land for You. Selah. Hasten, answer me, O יהוה; My spirit fails! Do not hide Your face from me, Lest I be like those going down into the pit. Let me hear Your loving-commitment in the morning, For in You I have put my trust; Let me know the way in which I should walk, For I have lifted up my being to You.”

Psalms 32:8-11, “Let Me instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; Let Me counsel, My eye be on you. Do not be like the horse, like the mule, With no understanding, with bit and bridle, Else they do not come near you. Many are the sorrows of the wrong; But as for the one trusting in יהוה, Loving-commitment surrounds him. Be glad in יהוה and exult, you righteous; And shout for joy, all you upright in heart!”

Proverbs 3:5-7, “Trust in יהוה with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; Know Him in all your ways, And He makes all your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear יהוה and turn away from evil.”

Isaiah 30:20-21, “Though יהוה gave you bread of adversity and water of affliction, your Teacher shall no longer be hidden. But your eyes shall see your Teacher, and your ears hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the Way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right, or whenever you turn to the left.”

Isaiah 48:16-17, “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Master יהוה has sent Me, and His Spirit. Thus said יהוה, your Redeemer, the Set-apart One of Yisra’yl, “I am יהוה your Strength, teaching you what is best, leading you by the way you should go.”

Zephaniah 3:7-9, “I have said, ‘Only fear Me, accept instruction.’ And her dwelling would not be cut off, all that I have appointed for her. But they rose up early, they corrupted all their deeds. Therefore wait for Me,” declares יהוה, “until the day I rise up for plunder. For My judgment is to gather nations, to assemble reigns, to pour out on them My rage, all My burning wrath. For by the fire of My jealousy all the earth shall be consumed. For then I shall turn unto the peoples a clean language so that they all call on the Name of יהוה, to serve Him with one shoulder.”

Isaiah 55:8-13, “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares יהוה, “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and do not return there, but water the earth, and make it bring forth and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so is My Word that goes forth from My mouth – it does not return to Me empty, but shall do what I please, and shall certainly accomplish what I sent it for. For with joy you go out, and with peace you are brought in – the mountains and the hills break forth into singing before you, and all the trees of the field clap the hands. Instead of the thorn the cypress comes up, and instead of the nettle the myrtle comes up. And it shall be to יהוה for a name, for an everlasting sign which is not cut off.”

Hizikyah · Nov 1, 2017

JairCrawford said:

trial and enticed/tempted are 2 different things, this experience is a trial, temptation is the desire to do evil, Yah guides none to evil, it is one's own desire that makes evil a desirable thing. James explains it betterthan I can;

James 1:12-18, “Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is enticed, “I am enticed by Yah,” for Yah is not enticed/tempted by evil matters, and He entices no one. But each one is enticed when he is drawn away by his own desires and trapped. hen, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death. Do not go astray, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of light, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of turning. Having purposed it, He brought us forth by the Word of truth, for us to be a kind of first-fruits of His creatures.”

Psalm 11:4, "יהוה is in His holy temple; יהוה throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men."

DeanDenizen · Nov 1, 2017

Thank you all for the detailed and interesting responses. I've been discussing this with a group of Christians in another forum, as well, and would like to share the results of that endeavor, in order to continue this discussion. Their arguments did nothing to quell my doubts and only left me with the following, which none of them had a response to.

The other member stated: "However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature."

This statement is along my lines of thinking, which led me to this:

"That sums up my point nicely, yes. free will is multiple choice. the nature of man is a limiting factor, which God imposed upon us. Therefore, he gave us the capacity to sin, and the space to do it in.

My biggest doubt is about how any of this adds up, rather than sounding like a cobbled together explanation of why we're here, in this painful and frightening existence. God could have made it any way he pleased, so he HAD to have chosen this painful world for some reason. Every reason anyone gives me of why we must suffer could be fulfilled in any other way that God chooses. He chose for us to suffer and sin, even though the knowledge that comes from contrast and duality could be delivered without us suffering and sinning.

If sin is such an affront to him, why give us such incredible capacity for it, and dispose our animal natures to indulging in it? How could anything Satan does to tempt us fall outside the purview of God, knowing all things to come, every choice, every move? Why does he leave us here to suffer and sin, and then be sent to hell for things he allowed for us to do, but people call it free will? It's not free, and he's ALWAYS KNOWN we would do it, yet he lets us. He equipped us to sin, allows the conditions to exist in which we can sin, and then sends us to hell because of it? If there is no freewill (as we seem to have established) then it's a rigged game, and we're being punished for no real reason."

Describing this world, and ourselves, as systems or programs is a good way of looking at it, I think. I don't see how our free will (or sovereignty) could lie outside the bounds God has placed upon us. It is impossible for us to operate outside of the limits of his creation and those placed upon us, isn't it? Therefore, we are programs executing within a larger one, called the universe, all designed by God and running in the fashion which he intended.

Willie-T · Nov 1, 2017

By the "reformed" (Calvinist) view, that whole scene in the garden where Jesus was sweating blood...... same thing goes for the temptation by Satan....... should be considered a farce, because Jesus (who is, in reality, God) already knew the outcome, and there was no real "choosing" to go to the cross, nor for refusing Satan's temptations.

dcontroversal · Nov 1, 2017

DeanDenizen said:

Thank you all for the detailed and interesting responses. I've been discussing this with a group of Christians in another forum, as well, and would like to share the results of that endeavor, in order to continue this discussion. Their arguments did nothing to quell my doubts and only left me with the following, which none of them had a response to.

The other member stated: "However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature."

This statement is along my lines of thinking, which led me to this:

"That sums up my point nicely, yes. free will is multiple choice. the nature of man is a limiting factor, which God imposed upon us. Therefore, he gave us the capacity to sin, and the space to do it in.

My biggest doubt is about how any of this adds up, rather than sounding like a cobbled together explanation of why we're here, in this painful and frightening existence. God could have made it any way he pleased, so he HAD to have chosen this painful world for some reason. Every reason anyone gives me of why we must suffer could be fulfilled in any other way that God chooses. He chose for us to suffer and sin, even though the knowledge that comes from contrast and duality could be delivered without us suffering and sinning.

If sin is such an affront to him, why give us such incredible capacity for it, and dispose our animal natures to indulging in it? How could anything Satan does to tempt us fall outside the purview of God, knowing all things to come, every choice, every move? Why does he leave us here to suffer and sin, and then be sent to hell for things he allowed for us to do, but people call it free will? It's not free, and he's ALWAYS KNOWN we would do it, yet he lets us. He equipped us to sin, allows the conditions to exist in which we can sin, and then sends us to hell because of it? If there is no freewill (as we seem to have established) then it's a rigged game, and we're being punished for no real reason."

Describing this world, and ourselves, as systems or programs is a good way of looking at it, I think. I don't see how our free will (or sovereignty) could lie outside the bounds God has placed upon us. It is impossible for us to operate outside of the limits of his creation and those placed upon us, isn't it? Therefore, we are programs executing within a larger one, called the universe, all designed by God and running in the fashion which he intended.

Maybe it can be boiled down to the simple following truths....

The servant is not above his master and it is enough to be as his master.

Jesus learned to be obedient by the things which he suffered.

Maybe this world and it's pain, suffering and difficulty was designed this way because Jesus would ultimately have to suffer and learn to be obedient!

Hizikyah · Nov 1, 2017

Willie-T said:

dcontroversal said:

Just want to add the Scriptures to go with these basic principles;

Yahshua was even tried and remained steadfast and faithful!

Hebrews 4:1-15, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest Who has ascended into the heavens: Yahshua the Son of YHWH, let us hold fast our profession. For we do not have a High Priest Who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all ways tempted as we are--yet was without sin."

Matthew 4:1-11, “Then יהושע was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tried by the devil. And after having fasted forty days and forty nights, He was hungry. And the trier came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of יהוה, command that these stones become bread. But He answering, said, “It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of יהוה. (Deu 8:3) Then the devil took Him up into the set-apart city, set Him on the edge of the Set-apart Place, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of יהוה, throw Yourself down. For it has been written, ‘He shall command His messengers concerning you,’ (Psa 91:11) and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, so that you do not dash your foot against a stone.’ (Psa 91:12) יהושע said to him, “It has also been written, ‘You shall not try יהוה your Strength.’ (Deu 6:16) Again, the devil took Him up on a very high mountain, and showed Him all the reigns of the world, and their esteem, and said to Him, “All these I shall give You if You fall down and worship me. Then יהושע said to him, “Go, Satan! For it has been written, ‘You shall worship יהוה your Strength, and Him alone you shall serve.’ (Deu 6:13) Then the devil left Him, and see, messengers came and attended Him.”

Matthew 26:36-46, “Then יהושע came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the taught ones, “Sit here while I go over there and pray. And He took with Him Kĕpha and the two sons of Zaḇdai, and He began to be grieved and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, “My being is exceedingly grieved, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me. And going forward a little, He fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I desire, but as You desire. And He came to the taught ones and found them asleep, and said to Kĕpha, “So, were you not able to watch with Me one hour? Watch and pray, lest you enter into trial. The spirit indeed is eager, but the flesh is weak. Again He went away, a second time, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is impossible for this to pass unless I drink it, let Your desire be done. And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy. And He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. Then He came to His taught ones and said to them, “Still sleeping and taking rest? See, the hour has come near, and the Son of Aḏam is delivered up into the hands of sinners. Rise, let us go. See, he who delivers Me up has come near.”

Hebrews 5:5-8, “So also the Messiah did not extol Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him, “You are My Son, today I have brought You forth. (Psa 2:7) As He also says in another place, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Malkitseḏeq,” (Psa 110:4) who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and petitions with strong crying and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His reverent fear, though being a Son, He learned obedience by what He suffered.”

John 13:15-17, “For I gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is an emissary greater than he who sent him. If you know these teachings, blessed are you if you do them.”

James 1:2-8, “My brothers, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the proving of your belief works endurance. And let endurance have a perfect work, so that you be perfect and complete, lacking in naught. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of Yah, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it shall be given to him. But he should ask in belief, not doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For that man should not think that he shall receive whatever from the Master – he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 12:3-17, “For consider Him who endured such opposition from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and faint in your lives."4, You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin."5, And you have forgotten the appeal which speaks to you as to sons, “My son, do not despise the discipline of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], nor faint when you are reproved by Him,"6, for whom [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]loves, He disciplines, and flogs every son whom He receives.” (Pro 3:11-12) "7, If you endure discipline, Yah is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom a father does not discipline?"8, But if you are without discipline, of which all have become sharers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."9, Moreover, we indeed had fathers of our flesh disciplining us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?"10, For they indeed disciplined us for a few days as seemed best to them, but He does it for our profit, so that we might share His apartness."11, And indeed, no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but grievous, but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."12, So, strengthen the hands which hang down and the weak knees, Isa 35:3."13, and make straight paths for your feet, lest the lame be turned aside, but instead, to be healed."14, Pursue peace with all, and pursue apartness without which no one shall see the Master."15, See to it that no one falls short of the favor of Yah, that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, by which many become defiled,"16, lest there be anyone who whores, or profane one, like Ěsaw, who for a single meal sold his birthright. 17, For you know that afterward, when he wished to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it with tears.”[/FONT]

JairCrawford · Nov 1, 2017

To not have free will, is to not be able to have a true relationship. How can we love without free will? What meaning is there in anything if there is no choice?

I do not interpret that God ever set us up to fall. All He did was give us free will.

OneFaith · Nov 1, 2017

In order to love Him of our own freewill He needs to give us the ability to make choices.

Marcelo · Nov 1, 2017

Marcelo said:

P.S.:

If you believe Jesus is Lord, this is predestination, but there was also free will involved because you accepted Him.

If later in life you forsake Jesus this is free will, but is also called predestination because God is an infinite being and as such He knows what lies ahead.

We human beings can't understand this -- for us it's a mystery.

When I pray I thank God for what He predestined me for, and before making decisions I ask Him to show me how to use my free will.

Debates about free will and predestination where people defend either free-will or predestination (do not accept both as true) are, in my opinion, a waste of time.

DeanDenizen · Nov 1, 2017

Can someone explain to me the reason why this world is so full of suffering? There is so much pain, horror, and death in this life. God knew what it would be like yet put us here anyway. Innocents suffer and die at the hands of evil people, but God doesn't prevent it. People suffer terrible diseases. People and animals are born deformed. People are born mentally handicapped. Even if it's sin that caused these things to come into this world, God knew it would happen and let us do it anyway. He built the system in which sin would usher these things in, and built these things, as well.

Anything God wished to teach us through the pain and horror of this world could have been taught any other way he could fathom. Yet, he chose this. This horrible, violent world, where everything withers and dies around us, including us and our loved ones. Any choice of ours that brought this to be is ultimately God's responsibility for giving us the capability to sin and the space to do it in. Why would he put us here to suffer and die in agony when he could have made it any other way? I just can't understand it. The designer of the system bears responsibility for everything that occurs within it, which means all the sinful choices are God's fault.

God designed us and he designed the system. We have no ability at all to operate outside of the bounds he placed upon us. We really are like machines, designed to function a certain way, within certain limits. Do we blame a machine when it doesn't do something properly, or do we blame the designer? It would be foolish to blame the machine, as it's foolish to blame us. The responsibility lies with the designer, or in this case, with God. It's God's fault that we sin and that we suffer because we are HIS creations operating within HIS system. We are HIS flawed creations, yet he punishes us when we screw up!? How is that right or just!!? And the most important question is WHY?? WHY did he put us here, in this state, flawed and taken to sin, only to be punished for that which is not our fault?

Hizikyah · Nov 1, 2017

Mankind as a whole has chosen a way that is not right, a way the Yah says not to go

Proverbs 1:24-33, “Because I called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one inclined, And you spurned all my counsel, And would not yield to my reproof, Let me also laugh at your calamity, Mock when your dread comes, When your dread comes like a storm, And your calamity comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you. Let them then call on me, but I answer not; Let them seek me, but not find me. Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of יהוה, They did not accept my counsel, They despised all my reproof, Therefore let them eat the fruit of their own way, And be filled with their own counsels. For the turning away of the simple kills them, And the complacency of fools destroys them. But whoever listens to me dwells safely, And is at ease from the dread of evil.”

Psalms 128:1-6, “Blessed are all who fear יהוה, Who walk in His ways. You shall eat the labor of your hands. Be blessed, and let it be well with you. Let your wife be As a fruit-bearing vine within your house, Your sons like olive plants all around your table. Look, so shall the man be blessed Who fears יהוה. , "יהוה shall bless you out of Tsiyon, And let you see the good of Yerushalayim All the days of your life, And let you see your children’s children! Peace be upon Yisra’ĕl!”

Isaiah 24:1-6, "See, יהוה is making the earth empty and making it waste, and shall overturn its surface, and shall scatter abroad its inhabitants. 2 And it shall be – as with the people so with the priest, as with the servant so with his master, as with the female servant so with her mistress, as with the buyer so with the seller, as with the lender so with the borrower, as with the creditor so with the debtor; 3 the earth is completely emptied and utterly plundered, for יהוה has spoken this word. 4 The earth shall mourn and wither, the world shall languish and wither, the haughty people of the earth shall languish. 5 For the earth has been defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the Torah, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore a curse shall consume the earth, and those who dwell in it be punished. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth shall be burned, and few men shall be left.”

Matt 24:21-2, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

2 Peter/Kepha 3, "1 This is now, beloved ones, the second letter I write to you, in which I stir up your sincere mind, to remember 2 the words previously spoken by the set-apart prophets, and of the command of the Master and Saviour, spoken by your emissaries, 3 knowing this first: that mockers shall come in the last days with mocking, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all continues as from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they choose to have this hidden from them: that the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by the Word of Yah, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 And the present heavens and the earth are treasured up by the same Word, being kept for fire, to a day of judgment and destruction of wicked men. 8 But, beloved ones, let not this one matter be hidden from you: that with יהוה one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 יהוה is not slow in regard to the promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward us, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of יהוה shall come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are in it shall be burned up. 11 Seeing all these are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be in set-apart (holy) behaviour and reverence,”

Isayah 51:6, “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look on the earth beneath, for the heavens shall vanish like smoke, and the earth wear out like a garment, and those who dwell in it die as gnats. But My deliverance is forever, and My righteousness is not broken."

Hizikyah · Nov 1, 2017

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Maybe things are so bad in this world that we may long for the peace, righteousness and judgment of YHWH that much more…[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Proverbs 29:2, “When the righteous increase, the people rejoice; But when a wrong one rules, the people sigh.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 71:19-20, “For Your righteousness, O Mighty One, is very high, You who have done great deeds. O Mighty One, who is like You? You who have shown me great distresses, Revive me again and bring me up again From the depths of the earth.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 92:4-9, “For You have made me rejoice with Your work, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], I shout for joy at the works of Your hands. O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], how great are Your works! Your thoughts are very deep! A senseless man does not know, And a fool does not understand this. When the wrong spring up like grass, And all the workers of wickedness blossom, It is for them to be destroyed forever. But You, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], are on high forever. For look, Your enemies, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], For look, Your enemies do perish; All the workers of wickedness are scattered.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 57:9-10, “I praise You among the peoples, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]; I sing to You among the nations. For Your loving-commitment is great up to the heavens, And Your truth unto the clouds.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 77:11-14, “I remember the deeds of Yah, For I remember Your wonders of old. And I shall meditate on all Your work, And talk of Your deeds. Your way, O the Mighty One, is in Set-apartness; Who is a great Strength like the Mighty One? You are the Strength who does wonders; You have made known Your strength among the peoples.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 89:8, “O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Strength of hosts, Who is mighty like You, O Yah? And Your trustworthiness is all around You.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 7:6-9, “Arise, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], in Your displeasure; Lift Yourself up against the rage of my adversaries, And awake for me! You shall command judgment! And let the congregation of the peoples gather about You; And over them return on high. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]judges the peoples; Judge me, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], according to my righteousness, And according to my integrity within me. Please let the evil of the wrong be ended, And establish the righteous; For the righteous Strength is a trier of hearts and kidneys.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 2:1-12, “Why do the nations rage, And the peoples meditate emptiness? (Mat 4:25-26 See also Dan 2:44, Dan 7:13-28, Hag 2:22, Zec 14:9 Rev 11:15) The sovereigns of the earth take their stand, And the rulers take counsel together, Against [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and against His Messiah, and say, Let us tear apart Their bonds, And throw away Their ropes from us. He who is sitting in the heavens laughs, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]mocks at them. Then He speaks to them in His wrath, And troubles them in His rage, saying, But I, I have set My Sovereign on Tsiyon, My set-apart mountain. I inscribe for a law: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have brought You forth. Ask of Me, and I make the nations Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth Your possession. Break them with a rod of iron, Dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ And now, be wise, O sovereigns; Be instructed, you rulers of the earth. Serve [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Chosen, lest He be enraged, And you perish in the way, For soon His wrath is to be kindled. Blessed are all those taking refuge in Him.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 18:1-12, “The word which came to Yirmeyahu from [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], saying, I went down to the potter’s house, and saw him doing a piece of work on the wheel. And the vessel that he made of clay was ruined in the hand of the potter, so he remade it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do. Then the word of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]came to me, saying, O house of Yisra’ĕl, am I not able to do with you as this potter?” declares [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. “Look, as the clay is in the hand of the potter, so are you in My hand, O house of Yisra’yl! The moment I speak concerning a nation and concerning a reign, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, and that nation shall turn from its evil because I have spoken against it, then I shall repent of the evil that I thought to do to it. And the moment I speak concerning a nation and concerning a reign, to build and to plant it, and it shall do evil in My eyes in not obeying My voice, then I shall repent concerning the good with which I spoke of doing to it. And now, speak to the men of Yehuḏah and to the inhabitants of Yerushalayim, saying, ‘Thus said [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], “See, I am forming evil and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your deeds good. But they shall say, “It is no use! For we walk according to our own plans, and we do each one the stubbornness of his evil heart.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 45:5-13, “I am [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and there is none else – there is no Strength besides Me. I gird you, though you have not known Me, so that they know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none but Me. I am [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and there is none else, forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil. I, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], do all these.’ Rain down, O heavens, from above, and let clouds pour down righteousness. Let the earth open, let them bring forth deliverance, and let righteousness spring up together. I, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], have created it. Woe to him who strives with his Maker! (a potsherd with the potsherds of the earth). Does clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ Or your handiwork say, ‘He has no hands’? Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What are you bringing forth?’ Or to the woman, ‘What are you labouring over?’ Thus said [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], the Set-apart One of Yisra’yl, and his Maker, “Do you ask Me about My sons what is to come? And about the work of My hands do you command Me? I have made the earth, and created man on it. I, My hands have stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded. I have stirred him up in righteousness, and all his ways I make straight. He builds My city and lets My exiles go, not for price nor reward,” declares [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 62:1-12, “My being finds rest in the Mighty One alone; From Him is my deliverance. He alone is my rock and my deliverance, my strong tower; I am not greatly shaken. How long would you shout at a man? – Murder! – Like a leaning wall, a tottering fence. They plotted to topple him from his high position; They delight in lies; They bless with their mouth, But in their heart they curse. Selah. My being, find rest in the Mighty One alone, Because my expectation is from Him. He alone is my rock and my deliverance, my strong tower; I am not shaken. My deliverance and my esteem depend on the Mighty One; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in the Mighty One. Trust in Him at all times, you people; Pour out your heart before Him; the Mighty One is a refuge for us. Selah. Sons of Aḏam are but a breath, Sons of men are a lie; If weighed in the scales, They are altogether lighter than breath. Do not trust in oppression. And do not become vain in robbery; If riches increase, Do not set your heart on them. the Mighty One has spoken once, Twice I have heard this: That strength belongs to the Mighty One. And loving-commitment is Yours, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]; For You reward each one according to his work.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 63:1-11, “O Mighty One, You are my Strength; I earnestly seek You; My being has thirsted for You; My flesh has longed for You In a dry and thirsty land without water. Therefore I have had a vision of You In the set-apart place, To see Your power and Your esteem. Because Your loving-commitment is better than life, My lips do praise You. Therefore I bless You while I live; In Your Name I lift up my hands. My being is satisfied as with marrow and fat, And my mouth praises You with singing lips. When I remember You on my bed, I meditate on You in the night watches. For You have been my help, And in the shadow of Your wings I sing. My being has closely followed You; Your right hand did uphold me. But those who seek to destroy my life, Go into the lower parts of the earth. They are handed over To the power of the sword; They become a portion for jackals. But let the sovereign rejoice in the Mighty One; Let everyone who swears by Him exult; For the mouth of those speaking lies is stopped."[/FONT]

Questions and doubts

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