'Reasoned' into Faith?

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lesjude

Guest
#1
#1
No one in the Bible was EVER "reasoned" into faith. They can however be reasoned into church membership which has nothing to do with salvation or faith. It is intellectual assent or "head" faith and may be accompanied with a high God consciousness received from participating in empty ritual and dead religious works.
1 Corinthians 1:22-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[a] foolishness,

Here is the ONLY way to faith in Christ:
1 Corinthians 1:21

New King James Version (NKJV)

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

AND: John 6:65

New King James Version (NKJV)

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

The basic question for EVERY professing Christian/church member is does he have heart faith or intellectual assent/"head" faith accompanied with a high God consciousness received from participating in empty ritual and dead religious works.
 
David_1

David_1

Banned
#2
Mar 21, 2011
1,515
16
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#2
I agree that the faith needs to be heart experience.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#3
#3
lesjude said:
No one in the Bible was EVER "reasoned" into faith. They can however be reasoned into church membership which has nothing to do with salvation or faith. It is intellectual assent or "head" faith and may be accompanied with a high God consciousness received from participating in empty ritual and dead religious works.
1 Corinthians 1:22-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[a] foolishness,

Here is the ONLY way to faith in Christ:
1 Corinthians 1:21

New King James Version (NKJV)

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

AND: John 6:65

New King James Version (NKJV)

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

The basic question for EVERY professing Christian/church member is does he have heart faith or intellectual assent/"head" faith accompanied with a high God consciousness received from participating in empty ritual and dead religious works.
Click to expand...
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Hi since God Himself said come let us reason together and Paul reasoned with the Jews. Can
you be more descriptive in your question?

Heart and head have no distinct difference to me. Can you elaborate?
ty
 
Tommy4Christ

Tommy4Christ

Banned
#4
Feb 11, 2012
1,358
8
0
#4
lesjude said:
No one in the Bible was EVER "reasoned" into faith. They can however be reasoned into church membership which has nothing to do with salvation or faith. It is intellectual assent or "head" faith and may be accompanied with a high God consciousness received from participating in empty ritual and dead religious works.
1 Corinthians 1:22-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[a] foolishness,

Here is the ONLY way to faith in Christ:
1 Corinthians 1:21

New King James Version (NKJV)

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

AND: John 6:65

New King James Version (NKJV)

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

The basic question for EVERY professing Christian/church member is does he have heart faith or intellectual assent/"head" faith accompanied with a high God consciousness received from participating in empty ritual and dead religious works.
Click to expand...
Faith is not passive, but active and dynamic, and faith and obedience is the same, where the church system teaches a dead faith, no works of the heart, and void of any real repentance!

Faith Upholds the Law!​
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid! On the contrary, we establish the law. Rom 3:31
If you’re told that Salvation is by Faith and NOT of Works, how does the Law come into play? Simple answer: ‘It Doesn’t’…..at least in your mind. But What is Faith? Is ‘faith without works’ dead? As James says or does the ‘works’ he is speaking of ‘FOLLOW’ Faith. Whereas the Faith comes first. So Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as Righteousness. (Rom4:3)
But what if I also tell you that Abraham WALKED in the STEPS of his faith, doing the DEEDS of faith and thereby OBEYED God? (Rom4:14, John8:39, Heb11:8) Wouldn’t that make faith the following:
A Walk of Faithful Deeds and Obedience! All One in the Same thing. That’s why Faith (real faith) Upholds and Established the law. (Rom13:10) Because it Obeys and Keeps the Commands of Christ! In this the Bible then Makes perfect sense.
As ‘Workers’ together with God, we Work Out our Salvation in fear and trembling, Make our Calling Sure, Run the Race with endurance, Fight the good fight, Holdfast, endure, and obey. It’s no longer necessary for the pastors to explain all these away and convince you Deeds don’t matter. Because the Bible CLEARLY says you will Judged According to your Deeds:
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Rom2:6-8
(Also Check: Matt12:37, 16:27, Jh5:28-29, 2Cor5:10, 1Pet1:17, Rev2:23, 22:11-14)
Now if Deeds will determine the Outcome of your Salvation (as these passages clearly state) WHY would you embrace a System of Doctrine that teaches otherwise? James plainly says that the ‘Devils also Believe’ James2:19. Meaning they indeed possess Faith! It’s undeniable that they (the devils) possess the SAME faith your Churches Preach as SAVING Faith. It’s the faith of Slothful, Biblical illiterate, lukewarm hypocrites who love the fun and games of their ‘religion’ but loath the Commands of Scripture.
Faith is WALKING in the Spirit, not the flesh. (Rom8:1-4) Thus it fulfills the Righteous requirements of the law and falls in line with the Message of Christ. When asked what must I do to inherit eternal life, He answered in this manner: “KEEP the Commandments!” (Matt19:16-22) Explained further therefore in Romans 8, The Greatest of all Commandments to love God is KEPT by WALKING in the Spirit….again a WORK of Faith With Power! (2Thess1:11) DEEDS and FAITH…..Synonymous! You can’t have one without the other or you’re nothing more than a ‘Devil’ who ‘Believes’.
What they have done inside the System is highly ‘Spiritualize’ the Bible and make simple truths into big mysterious doctrines only the theologians can understand. Thereby they can easily convinced the unlearned their ‘System’ is correct and the Bible actually does teach that your Sins are Covered by Grace, your Imputed Righteous and Eternally Secure. All by merely ‘Believing’ in Jesus! From there it’s easy to explain away all the Direct Commands and Warnings of Scripture. It’s says ‘Obey’ but Really means, HE Obeyed for you. It says ‘Serve’, but really means HE Served in your place. In fact, EVERYTHING Jesus said about Holding fast, enduring to the end, Taking up your cross, denying yourself, counting the cost, is to show you HE DID it all so you don’t have to!

You see how Slick this Message really is and why it’s dubbed ‘Great Swelling Words of Emptiness’ in the Bible. (2Pet2:18) Rather than you Working out your own Salvation, Making your calling Sure, Running the Race with endurance, Patiently Continuing in the faith, JESUS Did it all for you IN ADVANCE! That’s whey Faith can NEVER be associated with Works or Deeds of any sort, no matter What the Bible says. You Remain a Wretched, Chief of Sinners, Convinced that Sin humbles your heart before God, when in reality you’re growing Harder and Harder by the day in rebellion to the truth.

But that’s another discussion entirely, we’ll deal with later. Here we need to understand the Working Dynamic of Saving faith. It’s really VERY Simple: There is a LAW of Faith, Rom3:27, The LAW of Faith is LOVE, Gal5:6, Faith WORKS by Love, And Love Upholds and Fulfills the LAW! Rom13:10.
Without this Working Dynamic, you possess the Faith of Devils. James2:19. That’s why Faith Without Works is Dead and WHY Abraham was Justified by his DEEDS and NOT by FAITH ALONE! Js2:24.
www.standingthegap.org
 
M

mark54

Banned
#5
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
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#5
God will not accept works from anyone who believes those works will contribute to them attaining Heaven.
The works God wants are done solely out of love and gratitude for a free salvation given by grace through faith. Such are the works God requires.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#6
#6
mark54 said:
God will not accept works from anyone who believes those works will contribute to them attaining Heaven.
The works God wants are done solely out of love and gratitude for a free salvation given by grace through faith. Such are the works God requires.
Click to expand...

Hebrews 4:10-11
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.


11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
 
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mark54

Banned
#7
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
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#7
Abiding said:
Hebrews 4:10-11
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.


11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Click to expand...
And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest, if not to those who disobeyed
So we see that they were not able to enter because of their unbelief
Heb 3:18&19
 
M

mark54

Banned
#8
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#8
Tommy4Christ said:
!


Faith Upholds the Law!​

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid! On the contrary, we establish the law. Rom 3:31
If you’re told that Salvation is by Faith and NOT of Works, how does the Law come into play? Simple answer: ‘It Doesn’t’
Click to expand...
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.


31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

You can only uphold the law, according to Paul if you firstly realise and accept that you are justified by faith and not works, and you solely have a righteousness of faith and not works. So if you in your heart believe works are required, in anyway to justify you before God, you cannot uphold the law.

Works are the outward sign of what you have already freely received
 
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Abiding

Guest
#9
#9
mark54 said:
And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest, if not to those who disobeyed
So we see that they were not able to enter because of their unbelief
Heb 3:18&19
Click to expand...
Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Romans 1:17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#10
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#10
lesjude said:
No one in the Bible was EVER "reasoned" into faith. They can however be reasoned into church membership which has nothing to do with salvation or faith. It is intellectual assent or "head" faith and may be accompanied with a high God consciousness received from participating in empty ritual and dead religious works.
1 Corinthians 1:22-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[a] foolishness,

Here is the ONLY way to faith in Christ:
1 Corinthians 1:21

New King James Version (NKJV)

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

AND: John 6:65

New King James Version (NKJV)

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

The basic question for EVERY professing Christian/church member is does he have heart faith or intellectual assent/"head" faith accompanied with a high God consciousness received from participating in empty ritual and dead religious works.
Click to expand...
So what are you going to do, throw this verse out?
1 Peter 3:15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#12
#12
Ill throw this over into Lesjudes corner: 1 Cor 2


1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of man but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ
 
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Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#13
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#13
God can use both sound reasoning and the Spirit, or anything in that matter along with the Spirit to get to somebodies heart.
 
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BLINDSIDE_CHIK

Guest
#14
#14
I agree with bookends.. don't you guys remember the story of Moses? God hardened Pharoahs (heart)...which as a result made him (stubborn). God knows our thoughts and our heart...so if he knows you, he knows how to handle you and he'll do that whichever way he chooses. I think most of the time its a little of both because without using knowledge to understand its kinda just "there."
 
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lesjude

Guest
#15
#15
Abiding said:
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Hi since God Himself said come let us reason together and Paul reasoned with the Jews. Can
you be more descriptive in your question?

Heart and head have no distinct difference to me. Can you elaborate?
ty
Click to expand...
God was talking to Jews reminding them what they already knew as Paul was doing from familiar OT scriptures. Nothing about Romans 10:9-10 is "reasonable"to a sinner nor is this:
Romans 12:1

New King James Version (NKJV)

Living Sacrifices to God

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
An example would be you can have knowledge of a favorite public figure knowing many facts about the person, what he has said, and written and be in agreement with all of it. However you do not really know the person or what they are truly like. This is head knowledge.
 
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lesjude

Guest
#16
#16
Bookends said:
God can use both sound reasoning and the Spirit, or anything in that matter along with the Spirit to get to somebodies heart.
Click to expand...
Please give one scripture that any sinner would find reasonable.
 
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lesjude

Guest
#17
#17
Bookends said:
God can use both sound reasoning and the Spirit, or anything in that matter along with the Spirit to get to somebodies heart.
Click to expand...
Please give me one scripture that a sinner would find reasonable.
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#18
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#18
lesjude said:
Please give one scripture that any sinner would find reasonable.
Click to expand...
What is reasonable to one may not be reasonable to another. You ask an impossible question.

But I'll try to humor you: Isaiah 45:22:
22 “Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
 
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lesjude

Guest
#19
#19
Bookends said:
What is reasonable to one may not be reasonable to another. You ask an impossible question.

But I'll try to humor you: Isaiah 45:22:
22 “Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
Click to expand...
That means less than nothing to a sinner. Saved? From what? Just go try it out for yourself on one.
 
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