Recovering from the Matt. 28:19 Baptism formula. Pro-Christ Gentile save thyself.

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Nov 13, 2013
537
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#1
Evidence against the Traditional Wording of Matthew 28:19

Matt.28
[19] Go you (11 Apostles) therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them:
>> ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.’ << (This was changed.)

The Churches have been deceived for many generations
and were deprived of Spiritual Gifts.

Correct baptism calling on Jesus, from under the water,
still works for everyone who does it.
Strait and narrow/ precise is the WAY to Jesus that still works.

The process of Baptism is counsel from the Israelite God
and must be done correctly, orderly and respectfully.
Gentiles are coming to the Israelite God = Jesus.
The Israeliters are returning to him after rebelling from him and forsaking him.
He is now the HEAD of the Church, the owner of everything, including all people
and over all governmente.
Baptism is not complicated once it is known and understood.
The Israelites are accustomed to baptizing, even to today.

The following is original method to which the Jesus taught, Spirit led Apostles cleaved.

Acts.22:16
[16] Why tarry?
Arise, and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the LORD = (Jesus)

Pss.116
[12] What shall I render to the LORD (the Father) for all his benefits toward me?
[13] I will take the cup of salvation
and call upon the name of the LORD >> (Jesus, his beloved Son)

1 Cor.11
[2] Now I (Paul) praise (compliment) you, brethren,
that you remember me (Paul) in all things,
and you keep (obey) the ordinances (unchanged),
as I delivered them to you. >> (includes baptism calling on Jesus from under the water.)

2 Cor.13
[8] We (Christians and all reasonable people) can do nothing against the TRUTH
but for the TRUTH

Jas.3
[17] The wisdom that is from, Our Father, above is first:
pure
….
without partiality,
and without hypocrisy.

The following is not compiled by me.
***
The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics:
As to Matthew 28:19, it says: "It is the central piece of evidence for the traditional (Trinitarian) view.
If it were undisputed, this would, of course, be decisive,
but its trustworthiness is impugned on grounds of textual criticism, literary criticism and historical criticism."
The same Encyclopedia further states that:
"The obvious explanation of the silence of the New Testament on the triune name,
and the use of another (JESUS NAME) formula in Acts and Paul, is that this other formula was the earlier,
and the triune formula is a later addition."
***
Edmund Schlink, The Doctrine of Baptism, page 28:
"The baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form cannot be the historical origin of Christian baptism.
At the very least, it must be assumed that the text has been transmitted in a
form expanded by the [Catholic] church."
***
The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, 275:
"It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition."
***
Wilhelm Bousset, Kyrios Christianity, page 295:
"The testimony for the wide distribution of the simple baptismal formula [in the Name of Jesus]
own into the second century
is so overwhelming that even in Matthew 28:19, the Trinitarian formula was later inserted."
***
The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ
to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
***
Hastings Dictionary of the Bible 1963, page 1015:
"The Trinity.-...is not demonstrable by logic or by Scriptural proofs,
The term Trias was first used by Theophilus of Antioch (c AD 180),
(The term Trinity) not found in Scripture...”
"The chief Trinitarian text in the NT is the baptismal formula in Mt 28:19.
This late post-resurrection saying, not found in any other Gospel or anywhere else in the NT,
has been viewed by some scholars as an interpolation into Matthew……”
***
The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge:
"Jesus, however, cannot have given His disciples this Trinitarian order of baptism after His resurrection;
for the New Testament knows only one baptism
in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:43; 19:5; Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13-15),
which still occurs even in the second and third centuries,
while the Trinitarian formula occurs only in Matt. 28:19,
and then only again (in the) Didache 7:1 and Justin, Apol. 1:61.
Finally, the distinctly liturgical character of the formula...is strange;
it was not the way of Jesus to make such formulas... the formal authenticity of Matt. 28:19
must be disputed..."page 435.
***
The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly Catholic work, states:
"It may be that this formula, (Triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned,
is a reflection of the (Man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community
It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus,"..."
***
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637, Under "Baptism," says:
"Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation,
that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history,
and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus."
***
New Revised Standard Version says this about Matthew 28:19:
"Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus
and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition,
for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity..."
***
James Moffett's New Testament Translation:
In a footnote on page 64 about Matthew 28:19 he makes this statement:
"It may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned,
is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community.
It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus, cf. Acts 1:5 +."
***
The Bible Commentary 1919 page 723:
Dr. Peake makes it clear that:
"The command to baptize into the threefold name is a late doctrinal expansion.
Instead of the words baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
we should probably read simply-"into My Name."
***
Theology of the New Testament:
By R. Bultmann, 1951, page 133 under Kerygma of the Hellenistic Church and the Sacraments.
The historical fact that the verse Matthew 28:19 was altered is openly confessed to very plainly.
As to the rite of baptism, it was normally consummated as a bath
in which the one receiving baptism completely submerged,
and if possible in flowing water as the allusions of Acts 8:36, Heb. 10:22, Barn. 11:11 permit us to gather,
and as Did. 7:1-3 specifically says.
According to the last passage, [the apocryphal Catholic Didache] suffices in case of the need
if water is three times poured [false Catholic sprinkling doctrine] on the head.
The one baptizing names over the one being baptized the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,"
later expanded [changed] to the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit."
***
Doctrine and Practice in the Early Church:
By Dr. Stuart G. Hall 1992, pages 20 and 21.
Professor Stuart G. Hall was the former Chair of Ecclesiastical History at King's College, London England.
Dr. Hall makes the factual statement that Catholic Trinitarian Baptism
was not the original form of Christian Baptism,
rather the original was Jesus name baptism.
"In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
although those words were not used, as they later are, as a formula.
Not all baptisms fitted this rule." Dr Hall further, states:
"More common and perhaps more ancient was the simple, "In the name of the Lord Jesus or, Jesus Christ."
***
The Catholic University of America in Washington, D. C. 1923,
New Testament Studies Number 5:
The Lord's Command To Baptize An Historical Critical Investigation. By Bernard Henry Cuneo page 27.
"The passages in Acts and the Letters of St. Paul.
These passages seem to point to the earliest form as baptism in the name of the Lord."
Also we find. "Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief
that Christ commanded his disciples to baptize in the trine form?
Had Christ given such a command, it is urged, the Apostolic Church would have followed him,
and we should have some trace of this obedience in the New Testament.
No such trace can be found.
The only explanation of this silence, according to the anti-traditional view,
is this the short Christological (Jesus Name) formula was (the) original,
and the longer trine formula was a later development."
***
A History of The Christian Church:
1953 by Williston Walker former Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale University.
On page 95 we see the historical facts again declared.
"With the early disciples generally baptism was "in the name of Jesus Christ."
***
Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger:
He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19.
"The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape
during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism.
So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome.
“The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church
that started in Jerusalem around AD 33.
It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated.
Very few know about these historical facts.
***
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea.
On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea.
According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book
or the first copy of the original of Matthew.
Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19:
"With one word and voice He said to His disciples:
"Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name,
teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.
***
Time Magazine, Dec. 5, 1955: Record of a True Baptism in Rome 100 A.D.

"The deacon raised his hand, and Publius Decius stepped through the baptistery door.
Standing waist-deep in the pool was Marcus Vasca the wood seller.
He was smiling as Publius waded into the pool beside him.
'Credis?' he asked.
Credo' responded Publius.
'I believe that my salvation comes from Jesus the Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
With Him I died that with Him I may have Eternal Life.'
Then he felt strong arms supporting him as he let himself fall backward into the pool,
and heard Marcus' voice in his ear,
'I baptize you in the Name of the Lord Jesus'
as the cold water closed over (buried) him."
***
The above Baptism conforms to the Doctrine of the Christ taught Apostles.
The baptizer called upon/ over the candidate the 'name of the LORD Jesus, our Savior.'
The child of the Father, who is coming to the LORD, (the Arm)
must also call on the LORD Jesus, from under the water, or all you do is get wet.
Calling God by his name to get his attention and response was always the beneficial Israelite custom.
Gentile must become aware of this fact.
Happiness follows.

Ride prosperously with Grace from the Father and the Son.
 
Last edited:
Nov 16, 2013
102
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0
#2
Hi Word,

Only in one place is that formula written.
Throughout the Acts they were baptized calling on Jesus Christ.
It is even mentioned in the Epistles.
When we get the understanding that they were retuening to their God
and calling on him as they aiways did, it makes complete sense.
Spiritual undesrtanding is lacking because of faulty baptism.
Some are catching the clue.
These Scriptures were written by foreign people of a different culture.
May Jesus supply an overflow of grace to all.
 
Last edited:

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#3
Correct baptism calling on Jesus, from under the water,
still works for everyone who does it.
Strait and narrow/ precise is the WAY to Jesus that still works.

The above Baptism conforms to the Doctrine of the Christ taught Apostles.
The baptizer called upon/ over the candidate the 'name of the LORD Jesus, our Savior.'
The child of the Father, who is coming to the LORD, (the Arm)
must also call on the LORD Jesus, from under the water, or all you do is get wet.
Calling God by his name to get his attention and response was always the beneficial Israelite custom.
Gentile must become aware of this fact.
Happiness follows.
That is simply an unbiblical tradition.
 
Nov 13, 2013
537
5
0
#4
That is simply an unbiblical tradition.
Hello,

I understand.
Some people think that calling on Jesus is also wrong.
It is obvious that Gentiles will be surprised and the writer get attacked.
Anyother way and all you get is wet.
This is a 'religion' that has secrets.
Remember that Jesus told the Apostles not to 'cast their pearls before swine.'
There are some secrets
Do whatever helps you.
The Father calls to his Son and they come.
The plan works to please the Father.

Take care.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#5
That is simply an unbiblical tradition.
Hi Starfield,

So that I can understand were you are coming from, may I ask, "what is wrong with saying, 'call on the Lord Jesus, from under the water'"? That is, what are/is the consequence(s) of saying such?
 
R

reject-tech

Guest
#6
If you earnestly believe that God has cried enough to fill a river and cover your whole body completely, with enough left over for everyone else that comes to the river -
That is to say, having a an attempted and in-completable concept of just how much He loves us, then you might have been totally immersed.

If you've understood this on behalf of other people first and self last, without having accused God of iniquity, then it's been done in the proper name.

If you understand you had no control over some of your mistakes, and are thus not guilty of them, and that you want to change the ones that you do control because He already loves you enough to forget them, then your mistakes have been washed away.

So yeah, from "under that water" is a good place to call on Him. The physical water, like everything else you can touch, is just for illustration, and quite frankly sometimes, for your own fun and pleasure in having understood the real meaning.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
13,139
113
#7
so long as no one is trying to tell me i have no hope of salvation because i've never physically opened my mouth to speak while i was submerged underwater. . .

 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#8
If you earnestly believe that God has cried enough to fill a river and cover your whole body completely, with enough left over for everyone else that comes to the river -
That is to say, having a an attempted and in-completable concept of just how much He loves us, then you might have been totally immersed.

If you've understood this on behalf of other people first and self last, without having accused God of iniquity, then it's been done in the proper name.

If you understand you had no control over some of your mistakes, and are thus not guilty of them, and that you want to change the ones that you do control because He already loves you enough to forget them, then your mistakes have been washed away.

So yeah, from "under that water" is a good place to call on Him. The physical water, like everything else you can touch, is just for illustration, and quite frankly sometimes, for your own fun and pleasure in having understood the real meaning.
Very deep. indeed.......
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#9
Hello,

I understand.
Some people think that calling on Jesus is also wrong.
It is obvious that Gentiles will be surprised and the writer get attacked.
Anyother way and all you get is wet.
This is a 'religion' that has secrets.
Remember that Jesus told the Apostles not to 'cast their pearls before swine.'
There are some secrets
Do whatever helps you.
The Father calls to his Son and they come.
The plan works to please the Father.

Take care.
What exactly is the essence of “calling on Jesus under the water” to which if not done the water baptism is invalid? Sorry, but that’s silly, extra-biblical tradition. Nowhere in scripture does it say the baptisee ought to call on Jesus under the water otherwise they are just getting wet. You are just like the legalistic and divisive oneness Pentecostals who insist on water baptism in the name of Jesus only.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#10
Hi Starfield,

So that I can understand were you are coming from, may I ask, "what is wrong with saying, 'call on the Lord Jesus, from under the water'"? That is, what are/is the consequence(s) of saying such?
When I got baptised I didn’t 'call on Jesus from under the water'. According to this man, wordsponge, my baptism is invalid.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#11
When I got baptised I didn’t 'call on Jesus from under the water'. According to this man, wordsponge, my baptism is invalid.
I understand that Scripture does not say when we are to call on the name of the Lord, in or out of the water (does it?). And I also understand that WordSponge's words inply that we must say it while under the water and that he annuls the baptism of all other methods and reminds me of: condemn not and you will not be condemned.

But, the jest of my question was asking you to show me negative/positive Scriptural consequences of saying such as he did.

--Chris
 
S

SweetPea

Guest
#12
Water Baptism is simply saying you have accepted Jesus Christ as you Lord and Savior, being baptized means you accept Jesus as you Lord and savior and will follow his teachings
 
Nov 13, 2013
537
5
0
#13
I understand that Scripture does not say when we are to call on the name of the Lord, in or out of the water (does it?). And I also understand that WordSponge's words inply that we must say it while under the water and that he annuls the baptism of all other methods and reminds me of: condemn not and you will not be condemned.

But, the jest of my question was asking you to show me negative/positive Scriptural consequences of saying such as he did.

--Chris
Hello,

Grace to you.

What I'm saying is that if you call from >> under the water << Jesus responds to you,
anyother way and we get wet only.
It is good that you know that we must call on the name of the LORD Jesus.
Some people object to that.
Let us be reasonable.
It is obvious that people will question and ridicule so why would I say it?
I say it because it is the fact and it will help people.
People have been for generations, living without the Gifts and death.
Jesus gives the Gifts when we return directly to him as ordained.
If I give any more details then I will have more opposition.
There are people to whom this will make sense and they will comply.
The Spirit of GOD is responsible for gathering the people.

If you know that you have done what GOD requires of you
then do not be concerned.
Jesus said that we must enter through the 'Strait Gate.'
That is only ONE way.
I am not trying to force anyone to do anything but I desire to help.
Compliance, like honesty comes from "the inner parts."
My reward is not from people but I would like Salvation for all, as GOD is pleased to do.

Keep well brother.
 
S

SweetPea

Guest
#14
Mt. 28:19-20 all power belongs to the son Jesus Christ who gives a commission to the disciples to baptize out of every tribe, nation, and tongue in 20 teach them to observe all that I have commanded you; Jesus is talking to Jew and Gentiles alike tell them to be baptized and repent turn away from doing bad and do good.
 
Nov 13, 2013
537
5
0
#15
Hi Starfield,

So that I can understand were you are coming from, may I ask, "what is wrong with saying, 'call on the Lord Jesus, from under the water'"? That is, what are/is the consequence(s) of saying such?
Brother,

If I may:
We ask for forgiveness and a good life from under.
Jesus responds.
This religiom has a few secrets.
Notice that Paul said: "We are the Stewards of the mysteries of GOD."
The people keep secrets. They can hurt you by not telling.
PM me if you want to ask any more details.
I am willing to help.
I am strengthened for it.
 
Nov 13, 2013
537
5
0
#16
If you earnestly believe that God has cried enough to fill a river and cover your whole body completely, with enough left over for everyone else that comes to the river -
That is to say, having a an attempted and in-completable concept of just how much He loves us, then you might have been totally immersed.

If you've understood this on behalf of other people first and self last, without having accused God of iniquity, then it's been done in the proper name.

If you understand you had no control over some of your mistakes, and are thus not guilty of them, and that you want to change the ones that you do control because He already loves you enough to forget them, then your mistakes have been washed away.

So yeah, from "under that water" is a good place to call on Him. The physical water, like everything else you can touch, is just for illustration, and quite frankly sometimes, for your own fun and pleasure in having understood the real meaning.
Hello,

Whatever reason you use; just do it.

Call on him for forgiveness and a good life.

So far everyone got surprising help.

Jesus is our maker who makes us pleasing to his Father.
The best to you all.
 
Nov 13, 2013
537
5
0
#17
Mt. 28:19-20 all power belongs to the son Jesus Christ who gives a commission to the disciples to baptize out of every tribe, nation, and tongue in 20 teach them to observe all that I have commanded you; Jesus is talking to Jew and Gentiles alike tell them to be baptized and repent turn away from doing bad and do good.
Hello,
There is no argument with what you're saying.
I am repeating myself but what I am saying is that we get a positive response everytime.
Jesus then gives the Gifts.
Christians have been living in 'death' for generations.
You will be glad that you did.
We hear about grace but get none.
That is all changed.
The more willing the better.
Stick with Jesus.
The Father will be revealed.
 
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Nov 13, 2013
537
5
0
#18
Mt. 28:19-20 all power belongs to the son Jesus Christ who gives a commission to the disciples to baptize out of every tribe, nation, and tongue in 20 teach them to observe all that I have commanded you; Jesus is talking to Jew and Gentiles alike tell them to be baptized and repent turn away from doing bad and do good.
Hello,
You have good understanding.
Things should work very fast for you if you perform the Baptism.
Jesus is many things to the returned child of GOD.
He is a Savior so he starts saving.
He is a helper so he starts helping ....

Keep well and do not cheat yourself.
Grace to you.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,682
13,139
113
#19
baptism is a sign for men. so i was thinking about this thread, and so no one has reason to start controversy:

water_07-610x370.jpg

Jesus Christ is Lord! !!
 
D

didymos

Guest
#20
Evidence against the Traditional Wording of Matthew 28:19

Matt.28
[19] Go you (11 Apostles) therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them:
>> ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.’ << (This was changed.)

The Churches have been deceived for many generations
and were deprived of Spiritual Gifts.

Correct baptism calling on Jesus, from under the water,
(...)

Not according to the original greek (Nestle-Aland)