REFORMED THEOLOGY CRITICS - BE CONSISTENT AND DON'T LISTEN TO REFORMED TEACHERS
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NO, you are wrong again! God, an omnipotent being sees all of mankind' s futures.
He has already seen who will love him, accept him as their savior and change their lifestyles in order to follow the path that will take each and everyone to righteousness.
Everyone has FREE WILL to do whatever they want to do...Some will follow God's WORD and some will not...There is nothing holding back FREE WILL that is except pride, arrogance, GREED...
Which are you (everyone who reads this) ...Have you changed your lifestyle to accommodate His teachings. YES!!!!!!NO!!!!
So by the above definition Predestination of one's salvation is already KNOWN (not controlled) by GOD... SINCE you cannot see the future,,I believe I would make very sure I am one of the Predestined. That is unless you had rather live your present lifestyle and take a Gamble......If so, Las Vegas would simply love you to have you visit them.
I've never read the Westminster Confession, so if it does teach that it is wrong. To support your claim can you quote and place a link to show where it says this. Because the bible says man to bound for judgement because he loves his darkness (sin) rather that the light (Jesus) and that man that are going to heaven is because God did it for them. John 3:19-21
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” Here's how the HCSB translates it. “so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.”
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” Here's how the HCSB translates it. “so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.”
I looked up the Westminster Confession Chapter III section "III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."
It does not say people are predestined to damnation. God predestinated some men and angels unto everlasting life, the Father by His forknowledge has predestined some to eternal life. Others are foreordained to everlasting death, there is a differance between predestined and foreordained, those predestined is by the Father's choosing, where those foreordained is by nothing the Father does, it's by their own love for their own darkness and hatered for the light or Jesus. Here the Scriptual evidence that those predestined to eternal life is by the chose and foreknowledge of the Father. Romans 8:28-30 "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Those that are predestined to be confromed to the image of Christ, He foreknew them and called them to salvation, He justified them, and He glorifies them, so the Father calls them to salvation, He also justifies them and glorifies them.
I Peter 1:1-2 "To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you."
There are no Scriptures that have the same effort by the Father for those that are foreordained to eternal death, look at what Peter says, in I Peter 2:8 "They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." All men were born into sin and are destined to disobey the word of God, so there is no pre/foreordained disobedience by any decree of effort on the Father's part, like there is for those that are predestined for eternal life. Man left to his own devices will sin and love it. Look at the effort the Father puts forth to save sinners, He foreknows them, He calls them, He justifes them, He causes then to be born again, I Peter 1:3 "he has caused us to be born again" He made them alive Ephesians 2:5 "made us alive" and He made all to drink of one Spirit I Corinthians 12:13 "all were made to drink of one Spirit."
There are no Scriptures that show the Father putting forth any type of effort for those that will be eternally judged to damnation in the same way He d for those He foreknew and predestined, if there is please post them.
It does not say people are predestined to damnation. God predestinated some men and angels unto everlasting life, the Father by His forknowledge has predestined some to eternal life. Others are foreordained to everlasting death, there is a differance between predestined and foreordained, those predestined is by the Father's choosing, where those foreordained is by nothing the Father does, it's by their own love for their own darkness and hatered for the light or Jesus. Here the Scriptual evidence that those predestined to eternal life is by the chose and foreknowledge of the Father. Romans 8:28-30 "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Those that are predestined to be confromed to the image of Christ, He foreknew them and called them to salvation, He justified them, and He glorifies them, so the Father calls them to salvation, He also justifies them and glorifies them.
I Peter 1:1-2 "To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you."
There are no Scriptures that have the same effort by the Father for those that are foreordained to eternal death, look at what Peter says, in I Peter 2:8 "They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." All men were born into sin and are destined to disobey the word of God, so there is no pre/foreordained disobedience by any decree of effort on the Father's part, like there is for those that are predestined for eternal life. Man left to his own devices will sin and love it. Look at the effort the Father puts forth to save sinners, He foreknows them, He calls them, He justifes them, He causes then to be born again, I Peter 1:3 "he has caused us to be born again" He made them alive Ephesians 2:5 "made us alive" and He made all to drink of one Spirit I Corinthians 12:13 "all were made to drink of one Spirit."
There are no Scriptures that show the Father putting forth any type of effort for those that will be eternally judged to damnation in the same way He d for those He foreknew and predestined, if there is please post them.
Let's focus on this misconception since it is the key to understanding that according to Reformed Theology billions of souls are predestined to damnation. You say there is a difference between "predestined" and "foreordained" but the Bible (God Himself) says they are the same.
How do we know this? Because as it pertains to the crucifixion of Christ He was BOTH foreordained and predestined to die on that Cross. And if that is true for Christ, then the terms cannot be made to say something else to contravene Scripture. So let's look at the relevant passages and the words themselves:
1 Peter 1:19,20
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
While the Greek word is essentially "foreknowledge", we find that this foreknowledge was actually a part of predestination which was decreed in Acts 2:23:Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
That is why the KJV translators used the term "determinate counsel"
Strong's Concordance
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I define, determine, appoint, decree
Definition: I separate, mark off by boundaries; I determine, appoint, designate.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3724: ὁρίζω
2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26(numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον,that which hath been determined, according to appointment, decree, Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V. declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29 (Sophocles from 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare:ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)
So the Westminster Confession says both (1) that God has decreed souls and (2) that God has foreordained souls to eternal death that is not simply because of foreknowledge, and this is clearly asserted in Chapter III which I quoted. Please review it again.
So Christians have to determine FROM SCRIPTURE whether is is even possible to the same God who have His Son for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD to turn around and decree that billions of those sinners would be in Hell because that was His decision? This turns the Gospel on its head, and that is why I (and thousands of Christians) reject TULIP as false doctrine.
How do we know this? Because as it pertains to the crucifixion of Christ He was BOTH foreordained and predestined to die on that Cross. And if that is true for Christ, then the terms cannot be made to say something else to contravene Scripture. So let's look at the relevant passages and the words themselves:
1 Peter 1:19,20
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
While the Greek word is essentially "foreknowledge", we find that this foreknowledge was actually a part of predestination which was decreed in Acts 2:23:Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
That is why the KJV translators used the term "determinate counsel"
Strong's Concordance
horizó: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Original Word: ὁρίζωPart of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I define, determine, appoint, decree
Definition: I separate, mark off by boundaries; I determine, appoint, designate.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3724: ὁρίζω
2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26(numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον,that which hath been determined, according to appointment, decree, Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V. declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29 (Sophocles from 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare:ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)
So the Westminster Confession says both (1) that God has decreed souls and (2) that God has foreordained souls to eternal death that is not simply because of foreknowledge, and this is clearly asserted in Chapter III which I quoted. Please review it again.
So Christians have to determine FROM SCRIPTURE whether is is even possible to the same God who have His Son for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD to turn around and decree that billions of those sinners would be in Hell because that was His decision? This turns the Gospel on its head, and that is why I (and thousands of Christians) reject TULIP as false doctrine.
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We must try to think things through, when we want to talk about them.
God, as a creator of everything, decided what world He will create. You are right that He knew everything what will happen if He will create this or that world.
And He created this one and so predestined every small detail happening in it.
You cannot have any free will equating some kind of unpredictable random actions. This is impossible by Creator who knew everything what will happen.
Thats why I say it depends on the definition.
First you must define what you mean by free will.
Not just logic, also the Bible tells us that we cannot do whatever we want.
Predestination to salvation is of course a reality in any created world, because everything is predestined, not just your salvation, but also your every move and thought.
You cant have only "something" to be predestined and something to be random.
Also, Bible clearly says what are the signs of salvation, so if you are predestined to salvation, you are also predestined to have faith, works, Spirit etc, everything that leads to it.
God, as a creator of everything, decided what world He will create. You are right that He knew everything what will happen if He will create this or that world.
And He created this one and so predestined every small detail happening in it.
You cannot have any free will equating some kind of unpredictable random actions. This is impossible by Creator who knew everything what will happen.
Thats why I say it depends on the definition.
First you must define what you mean by free will.
Not just logic, also the Bible tells us that we cannot do whatever we want.
Predestination to salvation is of course a reality in any created world, because everything is predestined, not just your salvation, but also your every move and thought.
You cant have only "something" to be predestined and something to be random.
Also, Bible clearly says what are the signs of salvation, so if you are predestined to salvation, you are also predestined to have faith, works, Spirit etc, everything that leads to it.
It's not quite as true and simple as he put it and both of his posts need to be examined.
The Waldenses, or Waldensians came out of Roman Catholicism, so it cannot be rightly said they had no human founder as it was lead by Peter Waldo. They realized the truth in the same way all the Reformers did by coming out of the RCC after illumination of the Word by the Spirit of God; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Matthew 11:25-30 &c.
But this is not quite true and is a glamorization of the truth just as the booklet The Trail of Blood does the same. This kind of teaching typically comes from our Independent Baptist brethren. The "documentations" in this booklet have been found to be false, and it must be noted that much of their teachings come from this booklet.
As for the Paulician's, they too hardly can be said to have no human founder. (This "no human founder" thing is the epitome of glorification of these groups). Paulician's were also connected to Gnosticism and to Manicheanism, not such a good heritage for a group that had "no human founder." How they "helped the Reformers" is yet to be proven and probably cannot be proven.
Anyone can just throw out statements yet we should look well to our way before buying in (Proverbs 14:15) and if wrong accept that and retract.
Being a former BBFI preacher I am familiar with these untruths being spread around, but have forgotten most of the errors, partial truths, partial untruths that come along with this teaching. Most of these teachings are used to build a foundation under Independent Baptists as they attempt to link themselves to these groups in history, and then claim they are not Protestant. It is done to make themselves appear above others, but the information they use is skewed and erroneous.
Also mentioned as a group that helped the Reformers he mentions the Puritans. It is well known that this group arose after the Reformation, not prior. That is another huge mistake.
Just wanting to give a more accurate picture here and set the record somewhat straight. Sorry if it offends but the truth isn't as glamorous as some want to make it appear. We should all be cautious in accepting without further investigation.
The Waldenses, or Waldensians came out of Roman Catholicism, so it cannot be rightly said they had no human founder as it was lead by Peter Waldo. They realized the truth in the same way all the Reformers did by coming out of the RCC after illumination of the Word by the Spirit of God; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Matthew 11:25-30 &c.
But this is not quite true and is a glamorization of the truth just as the booklet The Trail of Blood does the same. This kind of teaching typically comes from our Independent Baptist brethren. The "documentations" in this booklet have been found to be false, and it must be noted that much of their teachings come from this booklet.
As for the Paulician's, they too hardly can be said to have no human founder. (This "no human founder" thing is the epitome of glorification of these groups). Paulician's were also connected to Gnosticism and to Manicheanism, not such a good heritage for a group that had "no human founder." How they "helped the Reformers" is yet to be proven and probably cannot be proven.
Anyone can just throw out statements yet we should look well to our way before buying in (Proverbs 14:15) and if wrong accept that and retract.
Being a former BBFI preacher I am familiar with these untruths being spread around, but have forgotten most of the errors, partial truths, partial untruths that come along with this teaching. Most of these teachings are used to build a foundation under Independent Baptists as they attempt to link themselves to these groups in history, and then claim they are not Protestant. It is done to make themselves appear above others, but the information they use is skewed and erroneous.
Also mentioned as a group that helped the Reformers he mentions the Puritans. It is well known that this group arose after the Reformation, not prior. That is another huge mistake.
Just wanting to give a more accurate picture here and set the record somewhat straight. Sorry if it offends but the truth isn't as glamorous as some want to make it appear. We should all be cautious in accepting without further investigation.
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I'll add this....you'll rarely see a group that can be deemed cultic that is led by Reformed teachers.
The only exception I can think of is WestBoro Baptist Church..and they are hyperCalvinists.
The other cults are obviously Arminian in their theology. Part of the reason, I think, is that Arminian theology is much more amenable to keeping people under control through threat of loss of salvation for non-conformity. Security of the believers takes away the authoritarianism that cults love.
The only exception I can think of is WestBoro Baptist Church..and they are hyperCalvinists.
The other cults are obviously Arminian in their theology. Part of the reason, I think, is that Arminian theology is much more amenable to keeping people under control through threat of loss of salvation for non-conformity. Security of the believers takes away the authoritarianism that cults love.
Agreed. We should also be cautious because someone will prove this not to be 100% along the way if some Reformed depart from sound doctrine, then someone can point to it and lambaste all Reformed at that point.
I believe they claim to be primitive baptists. Also heard the woman leader their (forget her name) teaching in an interview actual works salvation so they'd hardly be orthodox.
Probably more like anti-Reformed or anti-Calvinist than purely Arminian imho.
The rejection of God's faith being a gift has led to much error. We have then groups such as the WOF and Prosperity gospels holding to a heretical view of faith, that it is in men, that men are gods, that faith is a source of power within, can speak things into being, claim things &c. So on that issue concerning their departure from biblical faith much error has come to the forefront. This is a departure from the faith, Jude 1:3; Colossians 1:23; 1 Timothy 1:2; 1 Timothy 3:9, 4:1 &c. and is a different faith and different gospel altogether.
I believe they claim to be primitive baptists. Also heard the woman leader their (forget her name) teaching in an interview actual works salvation so they'd hardly be orthodox.
Probably more like anti-Reformed or anti-Calvinist than purely Arminian imho.
The rejection of God's faith being a gift has led to much error. We have then groups such as the WOF and Prosperity gospels holding to a heretical view of faith, that it is in men, that men are gods, that faith is a source of power within, can speak things into being, claim things &c. So on that issue concerning their departure from biblical faith much error has come to the forefront. This is a departure from the faith, Jude 1:3; Colossians 1:23; 1 Timothy 1:2; 1 Timothy 3:9, 4:1 &c. and is a different faith and different gospel altogether.
What I don't understand about people who dog Reformed ministers is that you don't see the same thing in real life among Reformed types.
Sure, young, hyper-aggressive Reformed kids online will trash CS Lewis, Ravi Zacharias, etc. But most honest thinkers recognize and praise God for their contributions despite disagreements on other fronts.
Sure, young, hyper-aggressive Reformed kids online will trash CS Lewis, Ravi Zacharias, etc. But most honest thinkers recognize and praise God for their contributions despite disagreements on other fronts.
well all i can say ive seen more reformers bag non reformers and usually get personal the quickest and plus it does have many weaknesses its as simple as that leaves to many question they refuse to answer or in most cases cant and limits God love and grace and they like to argue and call it debating they dont let go of a certain trained of thought and seem to be more indoctrinated then spirit lead that s why i presumed they are dogged as you call it
Actually it is witnessed on forums to be the exact opposite for the most part. But I digress, who is doing it most and pointing fingers isn't a profitable engagement. And you're going to do exactly that below, being divisive, sowing discord, offering unfounded and false accusations that will remain unsubstantiated.
It's called falsely accusing, accuser of the brothers, and here it is:
Bad run-on sentence that has no substantiation whatsoever. Shameful, carnal behavior.
It's called falsely accusing, accuser of the brothers, and here it is:
Bad run-on sentence that has no substantiation whatsoever. Shameful, carnal behavior.
Depends probably on your background.
Great reformed theologians:
I immediatelly have these in head:
Hus
Komenský
Luther
Calvin
Edwards
Spurgeon
Leibniz
Kierkegaard
Arminians:
Sauer Erich
... and thats is pretty much it.. maybe Darby? I know of some known preachers like Hagin, Bonke, Hinn, but those are not theologians in the technical sense of the word. They have their own theology, yes... but... you know what I mean
Great reformed theologians:
I immediatelly have these in head:
Hus
Komenský
Luther
Calvin
Edwards
Spurgeon
Leibniz
Kierkegaard
Arminians:
Sauer Erich
... and thats is pretty much it.. maybe Darby? I know of some known preachers like Hagin, Bonke, Hinn, but those are not theologians in the technical sense of the word. They have their own theology, yes... but... you know what I mean
ok first off Jan Hus was not reformed in the modern sense such a thing didn't exist yet neither was Martin Luther Luther would have been a lapsed Catholic somewhere in the middle of modern Catholicism and modern conservative Lutheranism Hus would be more along the lines of Lutheranism as well if by Leibniz you mean Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz he most definitely was not a reformed Christian again I believe he grew up in Lutheranism but he was a pantheist or deist later in life