Reformed vs Charismatic

[PeterJens]

I have finished listening to videos of strange fire, a reformed view.
Oh what sadness, that people have abandoned love and truth for ectasy, wealth and influence. So much sin and failure.
Worse still those who say being real from the heart is empty, only the prison of the mind is faith.

The Spirit did not annoint so many with love, renewal, gifts, his holiness, freedom for it to be wasted in falsehood and heresy. Both sides are now calling each other possessed by evil spirits. What is true is when people become emotional and ectastic, they behave in strange ways, but this is just how the body reacts when emotions that have been bottled up so long break out. How can so many give up on love and overcoming, to go back to error and sin.

Jesus came to die to show love overcomes all, the lowest path is the highest path. After talking to many non-christians it is this reality love overcomes hatred and bitterness, which is the power of God in Christ. It is sin that destroys, evil behaviour, betrayal of commitments and relationships. But people love individuals, single people to be the source, though they fail and fall, still they are held in authority. The dominionists and those who wish to be apostles, prophets, fail because they do not realise the apostles were killed, the prophets ignored and often reviled. The apostles today lie, along with the prophets who admit most of what they say is junk. This is aberant sin and denial of God in their lives, pure hypocracy.

What is real is the work of love in so many, the exuberant joy of praising the Lord, is still real, and all that is needed. Most of the words of prophecy and reality are there in his words, which we can quote and share with one another. So I wonder what others think of the divide which is being witnessed in the church today.

 

[Willie-T]

Well, we can either find things to "witness" in people's actions.... or we can be out witnessing.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

I believe God loves all denominations, He knows some are in error but He knows the condition of the heart of each individual He claims as His own. I also believe God loves and appreciates all kinds of worship - subdued, old fashioned, modern - even the chants of African Christians. Yes some people take the charismatic movement too far but the RC church are too far the other way. I believe we have a God who is discerning and isn't influenced by the church we attend or the style of worship we participate in.

So if God loves all why can't we be more inclusive?

 

[Stephen63]

I have finished listening to videos of strange fire, a reformed view.
Oh what sadness, that people have abandoned love and truth for ectasy, wealth and influence. So much sin and failure.
Worse still those who say being real from the heart is empty, only the prison of the mind is faith.

It's sad, yes, that two entire movements, Pentecostals & charismatics, were 100% condemned as to be playing with false fire.

Firstly, he groups them together as being totally alike when even Wikipedia states both movements claim this isn't so.
Secondly, Johnny Mac judges ALL charismatics & Pentecostals to be the same way. I can't speak for the charismatics, but I know for sure, being a Pentecostal minister that Pentecostals aren't.

Did Johnny Mac go on a tour checking all these churches out? Or random visits? What would it cost to send out a team of people across the US, Canada, & Europe to investigate this? Just showing how complicated & expensive it would be to attempt such an endeavor.....

Now if he said SOME in these movements were like this, I would have agreed with him, for this is true. But when you judge entire movements as being thus, that's like saying all Baptists are like that crazy church that bashes our military & mocks gays.

I used to listen to Johnny Mac years ago, & still like some of his videos, but to me he has to do some serious praying to do about judging the largest protestant movement in the world...... jus' sayin'.

 

[psychomom]

reformed vs charismatic?
what about both?

yeah...i'll go fetch a doc to perform that decompressive craniectomy.
try to attenuate some of that exploding head syndrome i just introduced.

 

[notuptome]

*sigh* Having a form of Godliness but denying the power there of....2Tim 3:5

The fields are white unto harvest but the laborers are few.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Reformed or Charismatic? SINCE When did Christ become Divided? didn't Paul scold those of his time.. about some following him, other Apollos? is not that the same today? where did all these denominations and sects and divisions of Christ come from? all claiming to be apart of the body of Christ.. yet having different 'roads' to Christ? some may say .. well they are all just confused.. well is God the Author of Confusion? NO.. who is the author of Confusion? mmmm think it about.. mordern day religious christianity, the works of the flesh... not all of it. but a majority of it .. fulfills a purpose. and that Purpose will be one day found in Revelation 17.. that 'ol nasty Girl... I believe the LORD calls her a harlot.. indeed.. CHRIST is not divided.. come ye out from the error! be not a partaker of her sins...

 

[PeterJens]

I know personally a pastor who help found God TV. To put it in plain terms, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copland etc. are heretics.
The gospel they preach is not love overcomes all in Jesus, we are transformed from the heart by sanctification, but we are all eternal spiritual beings who have creative powers. The insanity of this position is then do some creating.
Their legitimacy is based on emotional experiences which appear to be a form of hysteria which occurs in many groups but is simply indicating what happens when emotions run riot, not some great spiritual statement of significance.

At the end of all things, what does Jesus judge people by? What they do. He condemns those who did things in Jesus's name as evil doers. The promise of Jesus is freedom from sin, no longer being a slave to your desires. For the reformers it is self discipline, asthetic ideals but I believe it is about self discovery, learning about your emotions and letting love transform how you direct your emotions. The emotional praise group suffer from over exuberance can often lead to excess, while over repression to hypocracy and never finding your real self. The hard facts are you cannot lie to yourself, you know where you are. My frustration with gospel preaching was the formula did not deal with real struggles or issues, only believe and it will all be ok. Jesus expected by learning to be honest and working through these struggles with others would make us into a living body. It often appears we as a community have stayed children playing on a street corner.

 

[MarcR]

Ro 14:4
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
KJV


What business do movements or individuals within God's Church have attacking each other's faith or practice.

Mt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV

This is the work the Lord has given to His Church; and we should be too busy at it to have time for such nonsense!

 

[MarcR]

It is fine to discuss doctrinal issues and even to disagree with each other. However judging another person's walk with the Lord is not our job.

 

[notuptome]

I know personally a pastor who help found God TV. To put it in plain terms, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copland etc. are heretics.
The gospel they preach is not love overcomes all in Jesus, we are transformed from the heart by sanctification, but we are all eternal spiritual beings who have creative powers. The insanity of this position is then do some creating.
Their legitimacy is based on emotional experiences which appear to be a form of hysteria which occurs in many groups but is simply indicating what happens when emotions run riot, not some great spiritual statement of significance.

At the end of all things, what does Jesus judge people by? What they do. He condemns those who did things in Jesus's name as evil doers. The promise of Jesus is freedom from sin, no longer being a slave to your desires. For the reformers it is self discipline, asthetic ideals but I believe it is about self discovery, learning about your emotions and letting love transform how you direct your emotions. The emotional praise group suffer from over exuberance can often lead to excess, while over repression to hypocracy and never finding your real self. The hard facts are you cannot lie to yourself, you know where you are. My frustration with gospel preaching was the formula did not deal with real struggles or issues, only believe and it will all be ok. Jesus expected by learning to be honest and working through these struggles with others would make us into a living body. It often appears we as a community have stayed children playing on a street corner.

Jesus does not judge, His Father has already judged. The gospel you are espousing is not the biblical gospel.

By shedding His blood on Calvary Jesus took our place in judgment. By grace we are pardoned for our offenses through the atonement made by Christ.

The bible says that we are quickened by the Holy Spirit and made new creations in Christ. We do not transform ourselves by our efforts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Willie-T]

I believe God loves all denominations, He knows some are in error but He knows the condition of the heart of each individual He claims as His own. I also believe God loves and appreciates all kinds of worship - subdued, old fashioned, modern - even the chants of African Christians. Yes some people take the charismatic movement too far but the RC church are too far the other way. I believe we have a God who is discerning and isn't influenced by the church we attend or the style of worship we participate in.

So if God loves all why can't we be more inclusive?

I might rewrite that to say, "He knows ALL are in error to some extent......"

 

[Willie-T]

Ro 14:4
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
KJV


What business do movements or individuals within God's Church have attacking each other's faith or practice.

Mt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV

This is the work the Lord has given to His Church; and we should be too busy at it to have time for such nonsense!

Amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, and AMEN! And "So say we all", too.

 

[Kingdom_Mystic]

[h=3]The Vine and the Branches[/h]15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

There are many branches in Our Lord's kingdom but there is only ONE vine the which is Christ. It is better judge the fruit of a movement then the most minute details of doctrine. Give me a brother or sister that agree on the essentials of the Nicene Creed on fire with the love Jesus and I can commune with them. We will never agree on everything but it is better we focus on the Lord who unites us then the man made doctrines that divide us. May Yeshua's name gloried in His branches around world that men may taste of God's goodness in our fruit rather the bitterness division which does not come from our root.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus does not judge, His Father has already judged. The gospel you are espousing is not the biblical gospel.

By shedding His blood on Calvary Jesus took our place in judgment. By grace we are pardoned for our offenses through the atonement made by Christ.

The bible says that we are quickened by the Holy Spirit and made new creations in Christ. We do not transform ourselves by our efforts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your gospel is a gospel of failure. We do not change because of what we do. But in reality "You reap what you sow."

In one parable Jesus says this "I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow."

Jesus gives us the tools, changes our hearts, gives us justification, commands us to love, to do good works, to preach, to go out into the world and make deciples, and you think this does not change you.

You are changed by doing what Jesus commands you to do. This is what decipleship is, it is the fruit that comes from obedience. When you forgive, the burdens drop from your soul, your hatred and bitterness, your anger and frustration, your sense of it all being unfair and you are a victim. So I say you are 100% wrong, and this is the whole point of the gospel, by obdience you are changed.

Some believe like you, as sinners failed you will carry on as if nothing has happened still sinning and lost but justified. And suddenly when Jesus appears you will become perfect, like a majic wand. That is an empty hope, without power and not worthy of our Lord. It says the Holy Spirit within has no purpose, other than to abide in a rotting body and spirit until the true work can begin.

Listen to Jesus's prayer
"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, [SUP] [/SUP]your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"

Now how can this be if sinners are just redeemed with no transforming power or ability to obey?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

*sigh* Having a form of Godliness but denying the power there of....2Tim 3:5

The fields are white unto harvest but the laborers are few.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

yep. to busy in a building being slain by the spirit, and talking babble, or worshiping tradition and how good they are, then out letting God great break down the gates of hell so they can go rescue the people God is trying to rescue

 

[PeterJens]

Friends, listen to Jesus's words
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."
"But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand."

"But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken."


This is Pauls view of the judgement of our works in the Lord

[SUP] [/SUP]By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, [SUP]13 [/SUP]their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 3:10-15

We are called to do good things, to be what we have been born into children of the Living God, brothers with Jesus, who loved us unto death, so we likewise should love each other.

Who on earth think this comes naturally or is there from day one. It must be worked on, striven with, patiantly followed. If any of you have children, you know what this means. As young men and women you have no clue how much you will change or what you will learn, but you are commited to love the bundles of need and joy.

So I say only someone who has a closed heart and does not understand love could say following Jesus does not change you.

 

[notuptome]

Friends, listen to Jesus's words
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."
"But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand."

"But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken."

These are the unsaved who cannot account for their sin and are doomed to perish for eternity in the lake of fire.

This is Pauls view of the judgement of our works in the Lord

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, [SUP]13 [/SUP]their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 3:10-15

We are called to do good things, to be what we have been born into children of the Living God, brothers with Jesus, who loved us unto death, so we likewise should love each other.

While this is absolutely true it also teaches that it is the works that are subject to judgment not the Christian.

Who on earth think this comes naturally or is there from day one. It must be worked on, striven with, patiantly followed. If any of you have children, you know what this means. As young men and women you have no clue how much you will change or what you will learn, but you are commited to love the bundles of need and joy.

So I say only someone who has a closed heart and does not understand love could say following Jesus does not change you.

This is more of the same old red herring and straw man conclusions drawn from a judgmental heart. You seek to bloviate and pontificate while going about on wild ethereal fantasies that are without substance. You white wash the outside of the tomb but the inside is still filled with the filth of death.

God is a God of love but God is very much a God of judgment and wrath upon sin. John 3:36

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Willie-T]

How did so many people come to misunderstand that God's "justice" is making wrong things, right, NOT "making sure the bad guys get theirs?"

 

[notuptome]

How did so many people come to misunderstand that God's "justice" is making wrong things, right, NOT "making sure the bad guys get theirs?"

Why won't men accept that Gods righteousness demands satisfaction and that Christ satisfied Gods demand for judgment? God does not excuse sin and Christ has paid in full the awful penalty of sin. So great is the salvation God has wrought by His grace and freely given to us who deserved it the least.

The fields are white unto harvest but the laborers are few.

For the cause of Christ
Roger