Rev.20:4 Beheaded for the witness of Christ

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K

KennethC

Guest
#21
View attachment 135869 Who died and made you king of the forum? You'd argue with a fencepost! And who has been making overtures toward the Palestinians? uh huh that's right, the Vatican. They want to see Jerusalem turned into an international city and that way the Jews would loose control of it.

Who says the beast and Anti-christ and false prophet have to be one entity?

Where does this hateful attitude come from, as all I did was speak concerning the fruit of the Holy Spirit, then answered the thread with who is doing the beheading of Christians and Jews right now.

You jumping on me was uncalled for Is, and the Vatican is not beheading Jews and Christians.

Nowhere did I say the beast, anti-christ, and false prophet are one entity, and I think you must have me confused with somebody else.

The 1st beast (man of sin) and the 2nd beast (false prophet) are two separate entities, and as for the anti-christ you have two things mentioned on this to;

1) The spirit of anti-christ that will be in different individuals and has been for a while now

2) Final end times figure of the tribulation who will also be the same entity of the man of sin/1st beast
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#22
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years(Revelation 4-6).


All the saints that are with Jesus will reign with Him for 1000 years on earth,for there is only 2 resurrections,the first,all that are Jesus' people,that acknowledged Him whether Old Testament looking to that prophet to come,or New Testament,and all the rest after the millennial reign of Christ,but I believe that when it talks of the saints being beheaded that it is talking of the saints in the tribulation,which did not go along with the beast,and his system,because saints have been persecuted,and died,by more than one way,not all by beheading,but this is narrowing it down to those who went through the tribulation.

Also this is a good scripture to support that the saints will be in the tribulation,because they were beheaded in the tribulation for not taking the mark of the beast,and there is only 2 resurrections,one before the millennial reign,and one after the millennial reign,so these cannot be left behind saints.
Good day Mpaper345,

You are correct that Rev.20:4 is a resurrection of the great tribulation saints who will be beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshipped the beast, his image nor received his mark. But this group is the only group that is resurrected at that time. Notice that in Rev.20:4 that this is only a resurrection and there is no mention of living believers being changed and caught up here. That's because the resurrection and catching away of the church belongs to another stage of the first resurrection which takes place prior to the tribulation period in order to remove us prior to God's wrath.

As I have previously posted, the word "First" as in "First resurrection" does not mean "Only resurrection." There a phases or stages to the first resurrection, Jesus initiated the first resurrection being the firsts fruits, next to be resurrected and caught up will be the dead and living of the church at his appearing, the male child/144,000 are caught up during the middle of that last seven years, the two witnesses and then after the Lord's return to the earth, the great tribulation saints. These are all stages of the first resurrection. The problem is and has been is that expositors define the word "First" as "Only" and are thereby forced to put all of the righteous resurrections mentioned as taking place at Rev.20:4.

The biggest problem with making the resurrection and catching away of 1 Thes.4:16-18 as synonymous with Rev.20:4 is that it would put the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which is the entire wrath of God of which we are not appointed to suffer. The wrath of God that is coming upon the inhabitants of the entire world will be unprecedented and which will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government making way for Christ's millennial kingdom. Regarding this time of wrath Jesus said that he would Keep us "out of" that hour of trial.

The resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years is specifically a resurrection of the unrighteous who will have been in Hades and will have been gathering there from the beginning of history and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment. The church is not judged at this judgment. These who are judged at the end of the thousand eyars are those who will not have been worthy of sharing in the first resurrection.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#23
Who was beheaded?
Paul was beheaded in Rome....and to me the ones being killed are more indicative of the ones in the fifth seal who are told to wait a while until their brothers are killed in like manner....for not taking the mark of the beast......
 
I

Is

Guest
#24
Where does this hateful attitude come from, as all I did was speak concerning the fruit of the Holy Spirit, then answered the thread with who is doing the beheading of Christians and Jews right now.

You jumping on me was uncalled for Is, and the Vatican is not beheading Jews and Christians.

Nowhere did I say the beast, anti-christ, and false prophet are one entity, and I think you must have me confused with somebody else.

The 1st beast (man of sin) and the 2nd beast (false prophet) are two separate entities, and as for the anti-christ you have two things mentioned on this to;

1) The spirit of anti-christ that will be in different individuals and has been for a while now

2) Final end times figure of the tribulation who will also be the same entity of the man of sin/1st beast
Explain to me how Islam comes into the picture? Just because Pergamum is in Turkey it wasn't always Muslim.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After the death of Belshazzar in 539 B.C., the Persian Emperor Cyrus conquered Babylon and forced the Babylonian princes to flee to Pergamum. They continued their reign there as priest-kings of Babylonian paganism (The Two Babylons, pp. 240-241).In 133 B.C., Attalus III, the last Babylonian King to rule in Pergamum, willed his dominions to the Roman Caesar, and the kingdom of Pergamum merged with the Roman Empire along with Satan-Nimrod's throne and the title "Pontifex Maximus" (ibid., p. 241).[/FONT]
 
I

Is

Guest
#25
Paul was beheaded in Rome....and to me the ones being killed are more indicative of the ones in the fifth seal who are told to wait a while until their brothers are killed in like manner....for not taking the mark of the beast......
Like I said before it can't be proven that Paul was beheaded or that Peter was crucified up side down. It's nothing but pure hear say. Yes I think they are indicative of them too.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
#26
Good day Mpaper345,

You are correct that Rev.20:4 is a resurrection of the great tribulation saints who will be beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshipped the beast, his image nor received his mark. But this group is the only group that is resurrected at that time. Notice that in Rev.20:4 that this is only a resurrection and there is no mention of living believers being changed and caught up here. That's because the resurrection and catching away of the church belongs to another stage of the first resurrection which takes place prior to the tribulation period in order to remove us prior to God's wrath.

As I have previously posted, the word "First" as in "First resurrection" does not mean "Only resurrection." There a phases or stages to the first resurrection, Jesus initiated the first resurrection being the firsts fruits, next to be resurrected and caught up will be the dead and living of the church at his appearing, the male child/144,000 are caught up during the middle of that last seven years, the two witnesses and then after the Lord's return to the earth, the great tribulation saints. These are all stages of the first resurrection. The problem is and has been is that expositors define the word "First" as "Only" and are thereby forced to put all of the righteous resurrections mentioned as taking place at Rev.20:4.

The biggest problem with making the resurrection and catching away of 1 Thes.4:16-18 as synonymous with Rev.20:4 is that it would put the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which is the entire wrath of God of which we are not appointed to suffer. The wrath of God that is coming upon the inhabitants of the entire world will be unprecedented and which will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government making way for Christ's millennial kingdom. Regarding this time of wrath Jesus said that he would Keep us "out of" that hour of trial.

The resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years is specifically a resurrection of the unrighteous who will have been in Hades and will have been gathering there from the beginning of history and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment. The church is not judged at this judgment. These who are judged at the end of the thousand eyars are those who will not have been worthy of sharing in the first resurrection.


Rev 20:4 has nothing to do with the theory of premillinnialism. Rev can be divided into seven sections. Each section duplicates the time between the Advents of Christ. Rev 20 is the beginning of the last section. It begins with Christ coming to defeat death and Satan. John is writing in the mid 90's of the first century. He is writing to give incouragement to the Christians of that day who were currently going through the horrible persecution by the Roman Emperor Caligula. Beheading has been the common choice of death then and has continued over the centuries.
The first resurrection mentioned is referring to baptism. When one is baptized into Christ one puts on Christ. That is a spiritual resurrection from one's spiritual death. Believers will not suffer the second death which is eternal separation from God. Non believers do not have a spiritual resurrection thus will suffer the second death.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#27
Explain to me how Islam comes into the picture? Just because Pergamum is in Turkey it wasn't always Muslim.

After the death of Belshazzar in 539 B.C., the Persian Emperor Cyrus conquered Babylon and forced the Babylonian princes to flee to Pergamum. They continued their reign there as priest-kings of Babylonian paganism (The Two Babylons, pp. 240-241).In 133 B.C., Attalus III, the last Babylonian King to rule in Pergamum, willed his dominions to the Roman Caesar, and the kingdom of Pergamum merged with the Roman Empire along with Satan-Nimrod's throne and the title "Pontifex Maximus" (ibid., p. 241).

The final system in the book of Daniel shows this last system will be iron mixed with clay, and Daniel says it will not look anything that came before it.

Therefore it can not be a revised Roman empire or would be the same system just reborn, it has to be something that has never been seen before.

What exists now days that still follows a lot of the old empires traditions, and that is Islam or Muslim.

Now lets take a look about the iron mixed with clay, which would be a strong force mixed with a weaker to make one system.

The countries of Turkey, Greece, and Egypt were part of the Roman empire (Iron), and the Muslim countries are part of the Ottoman empire (Clay).

Alone and divided Islam does not have much power, but combined for one purpose which they are moving toward and with Turkey leading the way they will have a powerful force in both numbers and fire power.

Turkey has the 2nd largest military force in the U.N. after the U.S., and Muslims are already all around the world in all countries.

The bible speaks of a 200 million man army and there is only 3 groups in the world that can fend this size army; Muslim, China, and Ethiopia. The bible then gives us the location for the rise of this army as it states the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers.

Look at the map to see where these are located at
 
I

Is

Guest
#28
The final system in the book of Daniel shows this last system will be iron mixed with clay, and Daniel says it will not look anything that came before it.

Therefore it can not be a revised Roman empire or would be the same system just reborn, it has to be something that has never been seen before.

What exists now days that still follows a lot of the old empires traditions, and that is Islam or Muslim.

Now lets take a look about the iron mixed with clay, which would be a strong force mixed with a weaker to make one system.

The countries of Turkey, Greece, and Egypt were part of the Roman empire (Iron), and the Muslim countries are part of the Ottoman empire (Clay).

Alone and divided Islam does not have much power, but combined for one purpose which they are moving toward and with Turkey leading the way they will have a powerful force in both numbers and fire power.

Turkey has the 2nd largest military force in the U.N. after the U.S., and Muslims are already all around the world in all countries.

The bible speaks of a 200 million man army and there is only 3 groups in the world that can fend this size army; Muslim, China, and Ethiopia. The bible then gives us the location for the rise of this army as it states the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers.

Look at the map to see where these are located at
Rev.13:2 says the beast was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth of a lion

His resemblances to a leopard, a bear, and a lion refer to the first three beasts in the vision of Daniel 7 (representing the the empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece). This beast includes the people and cultures of the three previous empires, and is an outgrowth of the Roman Empire itself.

Please in the future give scripture references. The important thing is who will be the "he" in Daniel 9:27.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#29
Rev.13:2 says the beast was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth of a lion

His resemblances to a leopard, a bear, and a lion refer to the first three beasts in the vision of Daniel 7 (representing the the empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece). This beast includes the people and cultures of the three previous empires, and is an outgrowth of the Roman Empire itself.

Please in the future give scripture references. The important thing is who will be the "he" in Daniel 9:27.

Yes it does speak on the mixture of empires and not just a revised Roman empire as so many want to say.

As you have the Babylonian, Roman, Ottoman, and the Medo-Persian empires.
Most of them encompassed the same countries as the others, as look at the following maps:




If you want scripture references then look at Daniel 7:7, Revelation 9:14, and Revelation 16:12.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#30
Beheading has been the common choice of death then and has continued over the centuries.
Yes, but in the case Rev.20:4 those who beheaded will have been killed that way because of their testimony for Jesus, the word of God and because they will have not worshipped the beast, his image nor received his mark. This would demonstrate that this group are those who will come from the time period when the beast is here during that last 3 1/2 years, which is still future and therefore cannot represent people from previous centuries.

The first resurrection mentioned is referring to baptism. When one is baptized into Christ one puts on Christ. That is a spiritual resurrection from one's spiritual death.
What you said above is incorrect and that because of the rest of the context because prior to being literally resurrected, John sees them as beheaded. Therefore, the language here for resurrection is not metaphoric for baptism. That is pure conjecture on your part as there is nothing in that Scripture that would lead the reader to a symbolic interpretation.

Believers will not suffer the second death which is eternal separation from God.
I agree with the above and have never said that a true believer would suffer the second death. Only those whose names are not written in the book of life will suffer the second death.

Non believers do not have a spiritual resurrection thus will suffer the second death.
There is no such thing as a "spiritual resurrection" for the Greek word "Anastasis" translated "Resurrection" always refers to "a physical, bodily standing up again." The unrighteous who are resurrected out of Hades at the end of the thousand years will also have resurrected bodies. See below for the definition of the word anastasis translated as resurrection:


===============================================
anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

=========================================
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#31
Like I said before it can't be proven that Paul was beheaded or that Peter was crucified up side down. It's nothing but pure hear say. Yes I think they are indicative of them too.

Well there were two main methods of Roman capital punishment...beheading for citizens and crucifying for non-citizens...Paul was a citizen of Rome and tradition holds to him losing his head...not to mention all of the Christians beheaded by Nero in the (circus)
 
I

Is

Guest
#32
Yes it does speak on the mixture of empires and not just a revised Roman empire as so many want to say.

As you have the Babylonian, Roman, Ottoman, and the Medo-Persian empires.
Most of them encompassed the same countries as the others, as look at the following maps:




If you want scripture references then look at Daniel 7:7, Revelation 9:14, and Revelation 16:12.
You've said before that Anti-christ will be a Muslim.

Could you imagine the response of a devoutly Islamic nation like Egypt or Iran after their leader says, "I am god, there is no other god but... me! You will now bow down and worship... me!" This declaration would be both a direct blasphemy against Allah and a death sentence. Even in secular Turkey a man who claimed to be god would find himself thrown in prison at best.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#33
You've said before that Anti-christ will be a Muslim.

Could you imagine the response of a devoutly Islamic nation like Egypt or Iran after their leader says, "I am god, there is no other god but... me! You will now bow down and worship... me!" This declaration would be both a direct blasphemy against Allah and a death sentence. Even in secular Turkey a man who claimed to be god would find himself thrown in prison at best.
The muslim ingredient is real.They await the mahdi,their messiah. (actually rides a white horse,and they claim the white horse rider(the acfrom the start of the gt) ,is their messiah according to their interpretation of the bible).

Most all the muslim kings and princes own million dollar white stallions and arenas to ride them in. They are in a state of preparedness in case they are chosen to be the mahdi,messiah.

man worship is already here.

Pope = catholic deity

Muhammed = islamic deity
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
#34
Ahwatukee,

Yes, but in the case Rev.20:4 those who beheaded will have been killed that way because of their testimony for Jesus, the word of God and because they will have not worshipped the beast, his image nor received his mark. This would demonstrate that this group are those who will come from the time period when the beast is here during that last 3 1/2 years, which is still future and therefore cannot represent people from previous centuries.
The problem is that your explanation is not what scripture treaches. You are purveying a modern premillianialist view that was developed by Miller in the early 19th century and popularized in the mid 20th.

The Christians to whom John is writing could care less about some event that is going to come at the end of time. They were being persecuted and killed right at that time. John was writing encouragement. It is the same thing that Pual was doing for the Romans in Romans 8:29 to the end of the chapter.That was during the time of Nero's persecution.

What you said above is incorrect and that because of the rest of the context because prior to being literally resurrected, John sees them as beheaded. Therefore, the language here for resurrection is not metaphoric for baptism. That is pure conjecture on your part as there is nothing in that Scripture that would lead the reader to a symbolic interpretation.
there is no literal resurrection here. It has been understood as a spiritual resurrection for almost two thousand years. I don't think some man made theory will offset what the Holy Spirit gave to the early Church.

There is no such thing as a "spiritual resurrection" for the Greek word "Anastasis" translated "Resurrection" always refers to "a physical, bodily standing up again." The unrighteous who are resurrected out of Hades at the end of the thousand years will also have resurrected bodies. See below for the definition of the word anastasis translated as resurrection:
John sees the souls of those that were beheaded. Souls that were beheaded and are now before the Throne of God. These are not physically resurrected individuals, since the end of time has not yet come. We also know that believers are reigning with Christ in this Messianic or Church Age. There is no such thing in scripture of some yet future age, surely not an earthly reign of Christ on this earth. That is pure man made theory of modern times.

Also there is ONLY one physical resurrection that will ever occur and that is at the end time with Christ comes again and all mankind will be raised to immortality and incorruptibility. I Cor 15:52-54.
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
Yes it is. It is based on Christ Incarnation, the assumption of our human nature which He raised to life. I Cor 15:22, Rom 5:18, John 6:39 is all of mankind, not just believers. Verse 40 separates believers from all men. Vs 44 is all men again. Christ draws all men. John 12:32 confirms this fact as well.

Anastasis means to be raied up. It has no qualifier as being either physical or spritual. I think your source needs it to be physical otherwise his theory goes down the drain.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#35
The problem is that your explanation is not what scripture teaches. You are purveying a modern premillianialist view that was developed by Miller in the early 19th century and popularized in the mid 20th.
Well Cassian truth be told, I have never read any thing by Miller, but my interpretation of Scripture comes solely from studying the word of God and not by the teachings of men.

The Christians to whom John is writing could care less about some event that is going to come at the end of time. They were being persecuted and killed right at that time. John was writing encouragement. It is the same thing that Pual was doing for the Romans in Romans 8:29 to the end of the chapter.That was during the time of Nero's persecution.
Just because John was given the information for the book of revelation doesn't mean that it was exclusively for those living during John's time. Also, what you are forgetting is that John wasn't writing from his own passions or desires, but he wrote what God told him to write. Therefore, none of the events found in the book of Revelation are of John's own interpretation or experiences regarding the time, but what God wanted him to write. We have plenty of examples showing that the prophets spoke of things that were to take place in the far future. The Psalms are a good example of this with king David writing of the prophesies of Christ well ahead of time by the Holy Spirit. Another example would be all of the prophets of old who wrote regarding "the day of the Lord" which is still future. So please don't tell me that everything that John wrote of was specific to his generation, because it wasn't. The events found in the book of Revelation from chapter four on, namely the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God, are still future events and are approaching quickly.

The book of Revelation is divided into three parts (not seven) as demonstrated in Rev.1:19 when John was told to "write therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later."

1. What you have seen


Everything that is written prior to the time that John was told to write, which includes the vision of Christ's return to the earth in Rev.1:7 and Christ in his glorified state, the seven candle sticks and the seven stars.

2. What is Now

The "What is Now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which is also representing the entire church period, which is still on-going. That is, we are currently living in the church period, which is the Now. The Now will come to its close when Christ descends from heaven and gathers the dead and the living believers to remove them from the earth before the wrath of God commences.

3. What will take place later

The "what will take place later" will commence once the Now has completed. The "What will take place later" is synonymous with the "what must take place after this” of Rev.4:1. The events from Revelation chapter four on are still future.

there is no literal resurrection here. It has been understood as a spiritual resurrection for almost two thousand years. I don't think some man made theory will offset what the Holy Spirit gave to the early Church.
I'm sorry, but the burden of proof is on you, as I have already demonstrated that the word "Anastasis" translated as "Resurrection" only refers to a physical, bodily resurrection. There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection. As an example, at the time of death, according to Scripture, the believer's soul/spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not a resurrection because as I said, the word refers to a standing up again of the physical bodily. If you don't believe this I suggest that you go take it up with Thayer's and Strong's as well as the examples found in Scripture which all demonstrate the rising of the physical body.

Further more you said "It has been understood as a spiritual resurrection for almost two thousand years." This is no truth to this whatsoever! Are you making this stuff up as you go along? Do you believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ? His bodily resurrection is a guarantee of all believer's bodily resurrection. Again, I have to refer you back to the definition of the word "anastasis." Did you even bother to look at the definition that I provided? Instead of just protecting your adopted belief, why don't you give the truth of Scripture and honest look?

Regarding your claim of a "spiritual resurrection" there is nothing in the Scripture itself that would suggest anything other than a literal bodily resurrection. John sees the spirits/souls of the dead in heaven and then he sees them come to life (resurrected).

John sees the souls of those that were beheaded. Souls that were beheaded and are now before the Throne of God. These are not physically resurrected individuals, since the end of time has not yet come.

What you not taking into consideration regarding the above, is that John is seeing a vision of the future after Christ returns of those great tribulation saints. The chronology of revelation proves that with the order being the wrath of God, Christ returning to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet thrown into the lake of fire, Satan thrown into and restricted in the Abyss, the resurrection of the great tribulation saints and the establishing of the millennial kingdom. Therefore, John is seeing a vision that takes place after Christ's physical, visual return to the earth when those great tribulation saints are physically resurrected.

I pray that you would unlearn what you have learned and start over fresh, because the information that you have is in serius error. You have demonstrated that you don't even pay attention to the actual meaning of the Greek words nor to the context. Just out of curiosity, please show me how you come to the conclusion that the resurrection of Rev.20:4 is spiritual. Show me how you came to that conclusion using the Greek words, the context and anything else contained in Scripture. And please keep it short and to the point.

Yes it is. It is based on Christ Incarnation, the assumption of our human nature which He raised to life.
NO! It is based on Christ's physical, bodily resurrection. To be clear, Jesus rose in the same body that he was crucified in as can be seen from the following:

Psalms 16:10 - because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful one see decay.

Above is a prophecy regarding the Lord's resurrection. Spirits don't decay, bodies do.

The Jewish leaders knew what Jesus meant when he said that he would resurrect on the third day as can be seen in the following:

"The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. “Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”

Jesus himself demonstrated that he was in the same body that was crucified in, as can be seen from the following:

"While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

All references to the resurrection have to do with a physical, bodily resurrection and never to a spiritual resurrection. I wish that I could help you to understand, but it seems that you have been taught this interpretation and that because I have heard it many times before.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#36
You've said before that Anti-christ will be a Muslim.

Could you imagine the response of a devoutly Islamic nation like Egypt or Iran after their leader says, "I am god, there is no other god but... me! You will now bow down and worship... me!" This declaration would be both a direct blasphemy against Allah and a death sentence. Even in secular Turkey a man who claimed to be god would find himself thrown in prison at best.
Look at what Popeye said as I agree with what he said in #33 because this is exactly true what he said, and I would add that if you ever did research on the Quran you would find out who is called their messiah is a direct match to what is described as the anti-christ/man of sin in our Holy Bible.

Muslims state they are descendants of Abraham to, so the comment in the bible from Daniel 11:37 that he will have no regard for the God of his fathers would fit. Even if you want to change that to the plural form that some versions have done, "gods", it would still fit because him claiming to be God would be disregard our God and their Allah.

The man of sin will be a political leader and the false prophet will be the religious leader, and the Pope if he fits in this issue would only be as the false prophet. Take a look at what he has done lately, calling for Christians and Muslims to worship together.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#37
Ahwatukee,

The problem is that your explanation is not what scripture treaches. You are purveying a modern premillianialist view that was developed by Miller in the early 19th century and popularized in the mid 20th.

The Christians to whom John is writing could care less about some event that is going to come at the end of time. They were being persecuted and killed right at that time. John was writing encouragement. It is the same thing that Pual was doing for the Romans in Romans 8:29 to the end of the chapter.That was during the time of Nero's persecution.

there is no literal resurrection here. It has been understood as a spiritual resurrection for almost two thousand years. I don't think some man made theory will offset what the Holy Spirit gave to the early Church.


John sees the souls of those that were beheaded. Souls that were beheaded and are now before the Throne of God. These are not physically resurrected individuals, since the end of time has not yet come. We also know that believers are reigning with Christ in this Messianic or Church Age. There is no such thing in scripture of some yet future age, surely not an earthly reign of Christ on this earth. That is pure man made theory of modern times.

Also there is ONLY one physical resurrection that will ever occur and that is at the end time with Christ comes again and all mankind will be raised to immortality and incorruptibility. I Cor 15:52-54.
Yes it is. It is based on Christ Incarnation, the assumption of our human nature which He raised to life. I Cor 15:22, Rom 5:18, John 6:39 is all of mankind, not just believers. Verse 40 separates believers from all men. Vs 44 is all men again. Christ draws all men. John 12:32 confirms this fact as well.

Anastasis means to be raied up. It has no qualifier as being either physical or spritual. I think your source needs it to be physical otherwise his theory goes down the drain.

Revelation is a prophetic book speaking on things to come in the tribulation, it was not written to just Christians back then.

We must remember Apostle John was exiled on Patmos when he was shown this vision and wrote this book, meaning that nobody would be able to see these tell some time later. It is not like he had access to a mail system back then that he could just send carriers back and forth, he was sent there to cut him off from teaching others about Jesus.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
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0
#38
Well Cassian truth be told, I have never read any thing by Miller, but my interpretation of Scripture comes solely from studying the word of God and not by the teachings of men.
It has become so invasive in a lot of theological commentaries that it is not attributed to the originators primarily because so many others have added and embellished the theory. The fact that it keeps changing and newer and better theories come up constantly is manifest proof that it is not scriptural. The meaning of scripture does not change. The Holy Spirit gave the Apostles God's revelation and it has not changed since. Man has valiantly tried to change it. Back in the second and third century this concept was known as Chilism. It was condemned by the Church in the second Ecumenical Council.



Just because John was given the information for the book of revelation doesn't mean that it was exclusively for those living during John's time. Also, what you are forgetting is that John wasn't writing from his own passions or desires, but he wrote what God told him to write. Therefore, none of the events found in the book of Revelation are of John's own interpretation or experiences regarding the time, but what God wanted him to write. We have plenty of examples showing that the prophets spoke of things that were to take place in the far future. The Psalms are a good example of this with king David writing of the prophesies of Christ well ahead of time by the Holy Spirit. Another example would be all of the prophets of old who wrote regarding "the day of the Lord" which is still future. So please don't tell me that everything that John wrote of was specific to his generation, because it wasn't. The events found in the book of Revelation from chapter four on, namely the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God, are still future events and are approaching quickly.
Never made the assertion that all of Revelation dealt with the present time of John. The ONLY event that is still future is the Second Coming of Christ, judgement and the New Heaven and New Earth. However, that does not change the fact that Rev 20:4 is dealing with the time of John's writing. The chapter continue with the current age and by verse 13 is speaking about the last day, the resurrection of the dead and judgement.



The book of Revelation is divided into three parts (not seven) as demonstrated in Rev.1:19 when John was told to "write therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later."

1. What you have seen


Everything that is written prior to the time that John was told to write, which includes the vision of Christ's return to the earth in Rev.1:7 and Christ in his glorified state, the seven candle sticks and the seven stars.

2. What is Now

The "What is Now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which is also representing the entire church period, which is still on-going. That is, we are currently living in the church period, which is the Now. The Now will come to its close when Christ descends from heaven and gathers the dead and the living believers to remove them from the earth before the wrath of God commences.

3. What will take place later

The "what will take place later" will commence once the Now has completed. The "What will take place later" is synonymous with the "what must take place after this” of Rev.4:1. The events from Revelation chapter four on are still future. [/quote] so says your man made theory. The Messianic age is recorded seven times in Revelation. It is NOT a chronological writing.



I'm sorry, but the burden of proof is on you, as I have already demonstrated that the word "Anastasis" translated as "Resurrection" only refers to a physical, bodily resurrection. There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection. As an example, at the time of death, according to Scripture, the believer's soul/spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not a resurrection because as I said, the word refers to a standing up again of the physical bodily. If you don't believe this I suggest that you go take it up with Thayer's and Strong's as well as the examples found in Scripture which all demonstrate the rising of the physical body. [/quote] Your problem lies in Thayer's and Strong. They are Protestant source books and have many errors in them. If you want the Greek you need to go to a non-religious dictionary or check early sources of how it was used in the time that it was written. It was written in Greek, taught in Greek and it has never had a qualifier of being ONLY a physical resurrection.

Also the resurrection is NOT at the time that John is writing. The spiritual resurrection takes place in the life of the person on this earth at the time of their baptism. Baptism is the spiritual resurrection of a dead spiritual being. It is described in Rom 6, what is called the baptism chapter of the NT. The ONLY reason John sees their souls is that they are believers who were beheaded.That is why their soul is in heaven.

Further more you said "It has been understood as a spiritual resurrection for almost two thousand years." This is no truth to this whatsoever! Are you making this stuff up as you go along? Do you believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ? His bodily resurrection is a guarantee of all believer's bodily resurrection. Again, I have to refer you back to the definition of the word "anastasis." Did you even bother to look at the definition that I provided? Instead of just protecting your adopted belief, why don't you give the truth of Scripture and honest look?
I looked a long time ago. This is not the first time that I have explained this to a person who holds some form of premillinnialism.

The real issue is that your view does not have any historical understanding by the early Church and subsequently since. It can be traced, the modern version, to Miller and a lot of other men currently espousing this false teaching. You should realize that man can make scripture say anything they need it to say. That there are so many versions and nuances of premillennialism is proof that it is false.

Regarding your claim of a "spiritual resurrection" there is nothing in the Scripture itself that would suggest anything other than a literal bodily resurrection. John sees the spirits/souls of the dead in heaven and then he sees them come to life (resurrected).
There is only one physical resurrection and that occurs in the last day. John describes that in vs 13ff. Which is the end of the Messianic Age. Scripture has two deaths and two resurrections. They are balanced, a spiritual death has a spiritual resurrection, physical death has a physical resurrection. They begin with Adam and end with Christ who reverses the fall, and does so in reverse order for man. This is stated in the resurrection chapter of I Cor 15:45.
Just so you understand correctly. Adam sinned and caused a separation in the relationship with God which is described as a spiritual death. That sin resulted in physical death, man became mortal. Christ by becoming Incarnate, took man's nature and died physically so that by rising from the dead, gave life, immortality to man. Man now has an eternal existence again and can again rejoin the spiritual relationship with God. That spiritual relationship begins with baptism when one is joined with Christ.






What you not taking into consideration regarding the above, is that John is seeing a vision of the future after Christ returns of those great tribulation saints. The chronology of revelation proves that with the order being the wrath of God, Christ returning to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet thrown into the lake of fire, Satan thrown into and restricted in the Abyss, the resurrection of the great tribulation saints and the establishing of the millennial kingdom. Therefore, John is seeing a vision that takes place after Christ's physical, visual return to the earth when those great tribulation saints are physically resurrected.
so says your theory but not scripture as it has been understood from the beginning when it was given.

I pray that you would unlearn what you have learned and start over fresh, because the information that you have is in serius error. You have demonstrated that you don't even pay attention to the actual meaning of the Greek words nor to the context. Just out of curiosity, please show me how you come to the conclusion that the resurrection of Rev.20:4 is spiritual. Show me how you came to that conclusion using the Greek words, the context and anything else contained in Scripture. And please keep it short and to the point.
I came to that conclusion in studying early Church history and their understanding of God's revelation which some was recorded and became scripture. They all wrote, taught and lived in the Greek culure. Any student of scripture can readily see that the theory of premillennialism could not exist in scripture without seriously changing most of scripture to force the theory. This thread is not about premillennialism but about what scripture means and it has never had such a view except in modern times developed by men who have never been taught the scriptures from the Apostles.



NO! It is based on Christ's physical, bodily resurrection. To be clear, Jesus rose in the same body that he was crucified in as can be seen from the following:

Psalms 16:10 - because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful one see decay.

Above is a prophecy regarding the Lord's resurrection. Spirits don't decay, bodies do.

The Jewish leaders knew what Jesus meant when he said that he would resurrect on the third day as can be seen in the following:

"The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. “Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”

Jesus himself demonstrated that he was in the same body that was crucified in, as can be seen from the following:

"While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

All references to the resurrection have to do with a physical, bodily resurrection and never to a spiritual resurrection. I wish that I could help you to understand, but it seems that you have been taught this interpretation and that because I have heard it many times before.
I'm not sure just what this section is about since I never stated Christ did not rise physically, in fact made an emphatic statement that He did.

I have left the world of man made theories of these modern times. Went back to the original teachings of the Church in the beginning. The revelation that was given once by the Holy Spirit and guarded and preservered by the Holy Spirit in time.
 
I

Is

Guest
#39
You've said before that Anti-christ will be a Muslim.

Could you imagine the response of a devoutly Islamic nation like Egypt or Iran after their leader says, "I am god, there is no other god but... me! You will now bow down and worship... me!" This declaration would be both a direct blasphemy against Allah and a death sentence. Even in secular Turkey a man who claimed to be god would find himself thrown in prison at best.



The muslim ingredient is real.They await the mahdi,their messiah. (actually rides a white horse,and they claim the white horse rider(the acfrom the start of the gt) ,is their messiah according to their interpretation of the bible).

Most all the muslim kings and princes own million dollar white stallions and arenas to ride them in. They are in a state of preparedness in case they are chosen to be the mahdi,messiah.

man worship is already here.

Pope = catholic deity

Muhammed = islamic deity
Paul says of the Anti-christ:

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." 2Thess.2:4

Islam is not clear cut on who the mahdi will be different sects have different beliefs. Even one of Mohammads wives said:

"Umm Salama, a wife of Muhammad, is quoted as saying that;

His [the Mahdi's] aim is to establish a moral system from which all superstitious faiths have been eliminated. In the same way that students enter Islam, so unbelievers will come to believe.[21]

When the Mahdi appears, Allah will cause such power of vision and hearing to be manifested in believers that the Mahdi will call to the whole world from where he is, with no postman involved, and they will hear and even see him.[22]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi
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She absolutely distinguishes between the Mahdi and Allah, so my point still stands and is backed up by Paul's description of the Anti-christ.

Read on down to the section "Persons claiming to be the Mahdi" in the wikipedia article.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#40
Paul says of the Anti-christ:

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." 2Thess.2:4

Islam is not clear cut on who the mahdi will be different sects have different beliefs. Even one of Mohammads wives said:

"Umm Salama, a wife of Muhammad, is quoted as saying that;

His [the Mahdi's] aim is to establish a moral system from which all superstitious faiths have been eliminated. In the same way that students enter Islam, so unbelievers will come to believe.[21]

When the Mahdi appears, Allah will cause such power of vision and hearing to be manifested in believers that the Mahdi will call to the whole world from where he is, with no postman involved, and they will hear and even see him.[22]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi
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She absolutely distinguishes between the Mahdi and Allah, so my point still stands and is backed up by Paul's description of the Anti-christ.

Read on down to the section "Persons claiming to be the Mahdi" in the wikipedia article.
My position on the mahdi,is only one of keeping an eye peeled on that dynamic.....not saying yet he is ,or will be the ac.

But one thing you need to see. The muslims might beat you nearly to death for disgracing allah.
But it is a sure death warrant for disgracing muhammed.

There is no way of throwing out the muslim dimension. It is here. It is real