RIDICULOUS CHRISTIAN CLAIMS AND SHAMING JESUS
- Thread starter sparkman
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To ask for a sign is wicked. To ask for evidence of a claim is both common sense and discerning. To accept a claim of the supernatural as true is both absurd and dangerous. Claims of the supernatural are useless without proof. This is so clear that the notion is tacit. If you doubt this think about how you react to any stimulus that involves thought. You will always react based upon your discernment of the evidence at hand. You will not cross the street unless there is evidence of safety.
I think your whole reasoning for being a Christian should be seeking truth, and is between you and God alone. I think the antics of people who may or may not know Him too claiming hard to believe things should have no effect on truth. Pity and pray for these people if they truly have something wrong with them.
M
Those miracles are meant to be seen with one's own eyebalss. Not by means of your third or fourth hand story. There was ZERO controversy about these miracles back in the early church when this stuff was actually happening. The fact that there IS such huge controversy nowadays...speaks volumes.
But you're only making the case of the skeptics even stronger. There are hundreds of millions of iPhones all over the world...millions of YouTube videos. Where is the compelling evidence? Nowhere. Much less does one see it 'in person'. All the top Charismatic churches in America have nationally televised church services every single Sunday. And what do we see of credible miracles? Zip.
But you're only making the case of the skeptics even stronger. There are hundreds of millions of iPhones all over the world...millions of YouTube videos. Where is the compelling evidence? Nowhere. Much less does one see it 'in person'. All the top Charismatic churches in America have nationally televised church services every single Sunday. And what do we see of credible miracles? Zip.
M
But I can pull up dozens and hundreds of YouTube videos from third world countries, from all over the globe. Zero of those videos show anything even remotely intriguing regarding Jesus-style miracles or apostle-style miracles.
Not to mention, there seems to be no biblical basis for thinking these 'sign gifts' would only occur in the third world. In NT times, these apostle-style miracles were happening among ordinary everyday average folks.
Not to mention, there seems to be no biblical basis for thinking these 'sign gifts' would only occur in the third world. In NT times, these apostle-style miracles were happening among ordinary everyday average folks.
L
And yet Jesus said he couldn't do miracles in His home town. I wonder why that is? Maybe because there would be no faith or belief that He could do such miracles. I believe this is the reason we don't see it closer to home. People are raised with such doubt on miracles that they just don't have faith it happens anymore.
M
Ah...and there it is again -- the classic "Charismatic self-loathing":
We modern-day believers are such lousy bums, so despised of God...He will not show His face, He will not show His powers.
In any case...like I said...there is a worldwide net of iPhones and YouTubes. Should be able to produce evidence in seconds.
And by the way...how is it you have escaped this alleged anti-miracle "mind control"? I have no prejudice against miracles at all. It's really almost a kind of broad-brushing "bearing false witness" against people like myself who can honestly report "I have simply seen no Jesus-style miracle where someone who was stoneblind, for example, received 20/20 vision".
"Oh, that's easy - you're a lousy Christian".
Again, that's borderline "bearing false witness".
The reason I can tune into ALL the top Charismatic TV programs every Sunday and see ZERO credible miracles is...because there are ZERO credible miracles.
Not because I'm a poor Christian. The inability of the top most powerful, dynamic, popular Charismatic leaders in the nation (the world, for that matter) to produce one, single credible miracle during their telecasts...is on them. Not on me!
We modern-day believers are such lousy bums, so despised of God...He will not show His face, He will not show His powers.
In any case...like I said...there is a worldwide net of iPhones and YouTubes. Should be able to produce evidence in seconds.
And by the way...how is it you have escaped this alleged anti-miracle "mind control"? I have no prejudice against miracles at all. It's really almost a kind of broad-brushing "bearing false witness" against people like myself who can honestly report "I have simply seen no Jesus-style miracle where someone who was stoneblind, for example, received 20/20 vision".
"Oh, that's easy - you're a lousy Christian".
Again, that's borderline "bearing false witness".
The reason I can tune into ALL the top Charismatic TV programs every Sunday and see ZERO credible miracles is...because there are ZERO credible miracles.
Not because I'm a poor Christian. The inability of the top most powerful, dynamic, popular Charismatic leaders in the nation (the world, for that matter) to produce one, single credible miracle during their telecasts...is on them. Not on me!
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God can show each man his measure to deal with them in there own eunique walk..
eunique being that of we all have a personal relationiship with him..
======================================================
what a great statement! how precious to say what so many of us feel but most cannot
put into their own words...
yes,
each of our walks is 'unique' in His Heart=ours, and each of our special relationships with Him
can only be Spiritual-icing-on-our-heartcakes, for He has called/chosen/elected His family 'OUT',
of this world, as He chooses...we eventually learn that we are no longer slaves to 'satan's - evil-world'.
..and then of course, 'JESUS' HEAVENLY-SCHOOL BEGINS', right then and for ever after,
until we stand before Him, face to face naked',...
REV. 14:7.
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come:
and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
PS. 25:9.
The meek will He guide in judgment: and the meek will He teach His way.
MAL. 3:5.
And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift Witness against the sorcerers, and
against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages,
the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger and fear not Me, saith The LORD of Hosts.
MATT. 12:36.
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof
in The day of Judgment.
1PETER 4:17.
For the time is come that 'judgment must begin at the house of God': and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1JOHN 4:17.
Herein is our Love made Perfect, that we may have boldness in The Day of Judgment:
because as HE is, so are we in this world.
God can show each man his measure to deal with them in there own eunique walk..
eunique being that of we all have a personal relationiship with him..
======================================================
what a great statement! how precious to say what so many of us feel but most cannot
put into their own words...
yes,
each of our walks is 'unique' in His Heart=ours, and each of our special relationships with Him
can only be Spiritual-icing-on-our-heartcakes, for He has called/chosen/elected His family 'OUT',
of this world, as He chooses...we eventually learn that we are no longer slaves to 'satan's - evil-world'.
..and then of course, 'JESUS' HEAVENLY-SCHOOL BEGINS', right then and for ever after,
until we stand before Him, face to face naked',...
REV. 14:7.
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come:
and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
PS. 25:9.
The meek will He guide in judgment: and the meek will He teach His way.
MAL. 3:5.
And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift Witness against the sorcerers, and
against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages,
the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger and fear not Me, saith The LORD of Hosts.
MATT. 12:36.
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof
in The day of Judgment.
1PETER 4:17.
For the time is come that 'judgment must begin at the house of God': and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1JOHN 4:17.
Herein is our Love made Perfect, that we may have boldness in The Day of Judgment:
because as HE is, so are we in this world.
M
I don't want to come across too harshly. It's just unfortunate that Charismatics explain away the total absence of Jesus-style and apostle-style miracles...because of the 'inferior faith' of American (or Western) Christians.
In my experience, there are so many demoralized Charismatics who beat themselves up for not having seen or experienced these kinds of miracles. And then, as the OP is saying...it also fosters ridiculous and dishonest claims going on, all over the place.
And then the other dubious aspect...that all the mriacles are supposedly happening in faraway countries...and usually 2 or 3 or 8 years ago...and the story is coming to us, 8th hand, 12th hand, 15th hand.
In my experience, there are so many demoralized Charismatics who beat themselves up for not having seen or experienced these kinds of miracles. And then, as the OP is saying...it also fosters ridiculous and dishonest claims going on, all over the place.
And then the other dubious aspect...that all the mriacles are supposedly happening in faraway countries...and usually 2 or 3 or 8 years ago...and the story is coming to us, 8th hand, 12th hand, 15th hand.