Romans 4:17b

[posthuman]

. . even God, who gives life to the dead,
and calls those things which are not as though they were.
(Romans 4:17)

i am really struck by the way this is phrased here (here quoted in kjv 2000, and my older niv, and a couple other translations) -- and it seems borne out by the Greek, though i don't really know any Greek:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2316 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Theou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Θεοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]God,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the [One][/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2227 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]zōopoiountos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ζωοποιοῦντος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]giving life[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοὺς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3498 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]nekrous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]νεκροὺς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]dead,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-AMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]and[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2564 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kalountos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καλοῦντος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]calling[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the things[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μὴ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]onta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὄντα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][into] being[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5613 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὡς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]even[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]onta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὄντα·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]existing;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

other translations read differently, saying "He calls into being things that don't yet exist" etc.

but i am seeing, how that He calls me righteous, by faith, even before i am righteous. of course, He also works in me to produce righteousness - but i think the idea that He sees the end of His labour in me even from the beginning, declaring me righteous from the moment i put my trust in Him, fits better with the context here than the idea that He causes righteousness to come into existence in me.. but isn't so both are true!?

and so Wonderful!

oh, what a Savior!

 

[SeaBass]

Rom 4:17 "(As it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were."

God's promises are so certain, that sometimes things are said to exist even though it does not yet exist. In the verse God said to Abraham "I have made thee" past tense, God is speaking as if Abraham were already the father of many nations even though Issac, Jacob were many years away from being born. It was so certain Abraham would be the father of many nations God already calls him such.


The verse does not say God calls/reckons men righteous who are not righteous.

 

[Jeff_56]

i think you get it, and/or are starting to , yes, in line with what yahweh's WORD says.

remember we are clothed with yahshua's righteousness, we are made righteous in him, and by his faithfulness,

when yahweh makes us righteous, this is still fully in , by , and through yahshua hamashiach in union with him,
("IN UNION WITH HIM") is remarkable fascinating true and scene and seen throughout the NT several places....

just re-iterating all in all in yahshua hamashiach as the almighty sovereign creator grants us grace by faith and even the faith is a sheer gracious overawesome gift from him.... YES !

i.e. when yahweh makes us righteous, it is not at all as if we are made righteous apart from or separate from him in any way or in any part --- we are by his accomplishment fully in union and abiding in him and his WORD is abiding in us by his doing and by his grace.....

 

[MarcR]

I think the Greek can support both readings. I believe that God is an able communicator who can avoid ambiguity.

I believe that when 'double takes' or multiple takes' appear in Scripture, that both takes or all takes are intended and I believe that translators do God's Word a dis-service when they are not translated.

 

[Jeff_56]

Rom 4:17 .....

The verse does not say God calls/reckons men righteous who are not righteous.

true, but it is written that he calls the unrighteous (sinners) to become righteous in yahshua hamashiach...

and somewhere that "a people who did not seek ME found ME" (i.e. sinning gentiles apart from the JEWS ,
sinners who were NOT EVEN SEEKING GOD, found HIM...)

by grace and faith in yahshua hamashiach, yahweh's plan of salvation...

while those who remain wicked just remain wicked, whether Jew or gentiles....

--- they're not made righteous if they love darkness like or at all similar to the rcc doctrines and practices...


Luke 5:32 ►Parallel Verses
New International Version
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

New Living Translation
I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners and need to repent."

English Standard Version
I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

New American Standard Bible
"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

 

[Bowhunter2394]

. . even God, who gives life to the dead,
and calls those things which are not as though they were.
(Romans 4:17)

i am really struck by the way this is phrased here (here quoted in kjv 2000, and my older niv, and a couple other translations) -- and it seems borne out by the Greek, though i don't really know any Greek:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2316 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Theou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Θεοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]God,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the [One][/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2227 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]zōopoiountos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ζωοποιοῦντος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]giving life[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοὺς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3498 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]nekrous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]νεκροὺς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]dead,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-AMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]and[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2564 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kalountos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καλοῦντος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]calling[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the things[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μὴ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]onta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὄντα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][into] being[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5613 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὡς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]even[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]onta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὄντα·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]existing;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

other translations read differently, saying "He calls into being things that don't yet exist" etc.

but i am seeing, how that He calls me righteous, by faith, even before i am righteous. of course, He also works in me to produce righteousness - but i think the idea that He sees the end of His labour in me even from the beginning, declaring me righteous from the moment i put my trust in Him, fits better with the context here than the idea that He causes righteousness to come into existence in me.. but isn't so both are true!?

and so Wonderful!

oh, what a Savior!

Tells me HE IS SOVEREIGN and in control of all things! he can certainly quicken the spiritually dead to accomplish His Will, I've seen it in my own life, these people still in unbelief, yet USED of God to accomplish His Will for my life. indeed! this really upsets and throws the 'salvation by 'works' people into a tizzy and makes them froth at the mouth.. cause to them.. THEY ARE IN CONTROL.. the Al Haig's of Christianity! IM IN CONTROL HERE.. lolz...----> NOT so fast Al ! lolz....

The LORD shall Send the Rod of thy Strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine Enemies. Psalm 110!

 

[Bowhunter2394]

. . even God, who gives life to the dead,
and calls those things which are not as though they were.
(Romans 4:17)

i am really struck by the way this is phrased here (here quoted in kjv 2000, and my older niv, and a couple other translations) -- and it seems borne out by the Greek, though i don't really know any Greek:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2316 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Theou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Θεοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]God,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the [One][/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2227 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]zōopoiountos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ζωοποιοῦντος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]giving life[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοὺς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3498 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]nekrous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]νεκροὺς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]dead,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-AMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]and[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2564 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kalountos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καλοῦντος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]calling[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the things[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μὴ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]onta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὄντα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][into] being[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5613 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὡς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]even[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]onta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὄντα·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]existing;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

other translations read differently, saying "He calls into being things that don't yet exist" etc.

but i am seeing, how that He calls me righteous, by faith, even before i am righteous. of course, He also works in me to produce righteousness - but i think the idea that He sees the end of His labour in me even from the beginning, declaring me righteous from the moment i put my trust in Him, fits better with the context here than the idea that He causes righteousness to come into existence in me.. but isn't so both are true!?

and so Wonderful!

oh, what a Savior!

thank you I needed to HEAR THIS TODAY... oh being pressed out of measure beyond strength.. so that my trust is not in myself,, but in HIM who Raiseth the Dead! indeed

 

[Jeff_56]

yahweh's WORD says he causes ALL THINGS to work together for GOOD to those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. "ALL THINGS" includes all good and all bad things, all good and all bad people, and so on --- "ALL THINGS".
...
so who thinks GOD doesn't DO THIS ?



or tizzylee and tizzylou ? : RE >>

"Tells me HE IS SOVEREIGN and in control of all things! he can certainly quicken the spiritually dead to accomplish His Will, I've seen it in my own life, these people still in unbelief, yet USED of God to accomplish His Will for my life. indeed! this really upsets and throws the 'salvation by 'works' people into a tizzy..."

 

[sltaylor]

. . even God, who gives life to the dead,
and calls those things which are not as though they were.
(Romans 4:17)

i am really struck by the way this is phrased here (here quoted in kjv 2000, and my older niv, and a couple other translations) -- and it seems borne out by the Greek, though i don't really know any Greek:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2316 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Theou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Θεοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]God,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the [One][/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2227 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]zōopoiountos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ζωοποιοῦντος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]giving life[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοὺς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3498 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]nekrous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]νεκροὺς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]dead,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-AMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]and[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2564 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kalountos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καλοῦντος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]calling[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the things[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μὴ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]onta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὄντα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][into] being[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5613 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὡς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]even[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]onta[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὄντα·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]existing;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

other translations read differently, saying "He calls into being things that don't yet exist" etc.

but i am seeing, how that He calls me righteous, by faith, even before i am righteous. of course, He also works in me to produce righteousness - but i think the idea that He sees the end of His labour in me even from the beginning, declaring me righteous from the moment i put my trust in Him, fits better with the context here than the idea that He causes righteousness to come into existence in me.. but isn't so both are true!?

and so Wonderful!

oh, what a Savior!

Yeah I can totally see why you would think that. In context the whole chapter is about a choosing of a people, that at the time were not his 'people'. While the last part right after that is about the future things that Abraham was looking forward to. Maybe that has something to do with it as well. God said for a fact that was not here right now, would be fulfilled to Abraham in the furure, so maybe he's talking about his prophesying abilty. After all a prophesy is saying what is, while it really isn't yet, right??? I don't know, good thought on your part though.