Saved by Grace through Faith
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Per 2 Corinthians 12, 'Paradise' is not the heavens and not in heaven. And I didn't, and wouldn't, use the word 'hell.'
But rather 'Hades.' Which I believe is the Greek word the Bible uses. No, neither one is Catholicism's Purgatory.
I understand that 'Sheol' (= Hades), the pleasant part that is (such as where Samuel was relaxing after he died), is the common Christian understanding--------with regard to Old Testament times. It sounds like you never thought, or heard, of that one? (That's 'fine' if you haven't : ) The other common understanding among Christians is, like someone suggests here, that Paradise got emptied out, and all the deceased (disembodied) folks in it got taken by Christ to heaven. Or.........I think I've heard: that Paradise itself got taken to heaven. I myself disagree with that understanding, in whichever form it is.
I think their concept is based maybe on their incorrect understanding of John 14:2. But based more on their misunderstanding of Ephesians 4. Ephesians 4 corresponds with Ephesians 2. Where living saints are seated with Christ in the heavenlies, in spirit. Meaning that, contrary to the Paradise-is-emptied-out teaching: being in heaven with Christ now, before the resurrection and rapture, 2 Tim 2:18 + 1 Thes 4, is a matter of spirit, 1 Cor 6:17------not a matter of location.
To the contrary:
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks it out of his own possessions, for he is a liar and the father of it, Jn 8:44.
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned...by the offense of the one the many died...one offense unto condemnation...by the offense of the one death reigned through the one...it was through one offense unto condemnation to all men...through the disobedience of one man, the many were constituted sinners, Rm 5:12-19.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 3:23.
Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew all men...He Himself knew what was in man, Jn 2:23-25.
For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not,
Rm 7:18.
Is SeaBass what they call 'Pelagian'?
IF you're in God's farm, 1 Cor 3:9, then you won't be rooted up. Though your work of false teaching will be,
3:12-13. Yet you yourself (if you've received the Lord) will be saved, 3:15. Yet so as through fire. This is what "If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him' means, 3:17.
You should ask Him for faith. Trust Him. Love Him. Experience Him, and enjoy Him. That would be closeness to Christ.
To the contrary:
Rev 3:5; 2:11, punishment is temporary. 1000 years. Discipline. Missing out on the wedding feast.
But rather 'Hades.' Which I believe is the Greek word the Bible uses. No, neither one is Catholicism's Purgatory.
I understand that 'Sheol' (= Hades), the pleasant part that is (such as where Samuel was relaxing after he died), is the common Christian understanding--------with regard to Old Testament times. It sounds like you never thought, or heard, of that one? (That's 'fine' if you haven't : ) The other common understanding among Christians is, like someone suggests here, that Paradise got emptied out, and all the deceased (disembodied) folks in it got taken by Christ to heaven. Or.........I think I've heard: that Paradise itself got taken to heaven. I myself disagree with that understanding, in whichever form it is.
I think their concept is based maybe on their incorrect understanding of John 14:2. But based more on their misunderstanding of Ephesians 4. Ephesians 4 corresponds with Ephesians 2. Where living saints are seated with Christ in the heavenlies, in spirit. Meaning that, contrary to the Paradise-is-emptied-out teaching: being in heaven with Christ now, before the resurrection and rapture, 2 Tim 2:18 + 1 Thes 4, is a matter of spirit, 1 Cor 6:17------not a matter of location.
To the contrary:
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks it out of his own possessions, for he is a liar and the father of it, Jn 8:44.
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned...by the offense of the one the many died...one offense unto condemnation...by the offense of the one death reigned through the one...it was through one offense unto condemnation to all men...through the disobedience of one man, the many were constituted sinners, Rm 5:12-19.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 3:23.
Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew all men...He Himself knew what was in man, Jn 2:23-25.
For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not,
Rm 7:18.
Is SeaBass what they call 'Pelagian'?
IF you're in God's farm, 1 Cor 3:9, then you won't be rooted up. Though your work of false teaching will be,
3:12-13. Yet you yourself (if you've received the Lord) will be saved, 3:15. Yet so as through fire. This is what "If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him' means, 3:17.
You should ask Him for faith. Trust Him. Love Him. Experience Him, and enjoy Him. That would be closeness to Christ.
To the contrary:
Rev 3:5; 2:11, punishment is temporary. 1000 years. Discipline. Missing out on the wedding feast.
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Have been reading the support of Paradise once being part of Hades, and honestly, it is supposition for the most part. And reading the counter position, there is clearly distinct differences of opinions.
So, like many other ideologies/understandings, each is welcome to believe as they wish...........but there appears to be a "great gulf fixed" between Hades and the third heaven.
So, like many other ideologies/understandings, each is welcome to believe as they wish...........but there appears to be a "great gulf fixed" between Hades and the third heaven.
I think I may have used this analogy once before but for those that maybe didn't here let me try and give and example
Faith is like GOD in front of you but you can't see him
but you know he is there because you hear his voice impressing on your heart and he is telling you I said you can have what I promised you,
but you have to have faith in my word even though you can't see me
and on the side you see with your eyes a roaring lion and every time you get ready to do what GOD said whom you can't see
the lion roars at you making you think he is just about to pounce on you.
You have to believe GOD is not going to let anything happen to you even though you can only perceive him by what he said
whereas you can see the lions teeth and hear him you got to trust in Faith and not your carnal senses.
Faith is like GOD in front of you but you can't see him
but you know he is there because you hear his voice impressing on your heart and he is telling you I said you can have what I promised you,
but you have to have faith in my word even though you can't see me
and on the side you see with your eyes a roaring lion and every time you get ready to do what GOD said whom you can't see
the lion roars at you making you think he is just about to pounce on you.
You have to believe GOD is not going to let anything happen to you even though you can only perceive him by what he said
whereas you can see the lions teeth and hear him you got to trust in Faith and not your carnal senses.
According to 2 Corinthians 12.1-3 Paradise is the same as 'the third Heaven'. In other words it is not the first heaven (the sky) nor the second heaven, the stars, but the Heaven of Heaven where God is.
Notice the emphasis on 'being caught up' to it. There is never any suggestion in Scripture of 'going up' to Hades. It is always down. Thus Paradise is what we call Heaven.
Notice the emphasis on 'being caught up' to it. There is never any suggestion in Scripture of 'going up' to Hades. It is always down. Thus Paradise is what we call Heaven.
While I agree partly............especially third heaven, I just wonder if this "third heaven" is where the Throne of God is, or a lower level of heaven.......because Jesus had not yet ascended when much of this was occurring. Just saying.
Something I read on "got questions.org" shows the variance............
The Hebrew for “heaven,” shamayim, only appears in the plural form and can mean “sky” (Genesis 1:8–9), “outer space” (Genesis 22:17), or “the place where God dwells” (Joshua 2:11). In the New Testament, the Greek ouranos can mean “the dwelling place of God” (Matthew 12:50) or “the sky” (Acts 10:11). And paradeisos (“paradise” or “garden”) can refer to the place where dead believers await resurrection (Luke 23:43), to where God dwells now (2 Corinthians 12:4), or to our eternal home (Revelation 2:7).
anyway..........
Something I read on "got questions.org" shows the variance............
The Hebrew for “heaven,” shamayim, only appears in the plural form and can mean “sky” (Genesis 1:8–9), “outer space” (Genesis 22:17), or “the place where God dwells” (Joshua 2:11). In the New Testament, the Greek ouranos can mean “the dwelling place of God” (Matthew 12:50) or “the sky” (Acts 10:11). And paradeisos (“paradise” or “garden”) can refer to the place where dead believers await resurrection (Luke 23:43), to where God dwells now (2 Corinthians 12:4), or to our eternal home (Revelation 2:7).
anyway..........
F
To the clear and dramatic contrary:
I know a man in Christ, 14 years ago (whether in the body I don't know, or outside the body I don't know; God knows) such a one was caught away to the third heaven. And I know such a man (whether in the body or outside the body, I don't know; God knows), that he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to speak,
2 Cor 12:2-3.
The conjunction 'AND,' beginning the 2nd sentence (verse 3), shows that Paradise and the third heaven differ. They cannot be the same thing. 'May your spirit AND soul AND body be preserved,' 1 Thes 5:23. 'In the beginning God created the heavens AND the earth.' 'In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God AND the Word was God'---The Word is both God...AND with God....
Anyway, hopefully some get the point
We can explore the Greek word for 'caught.....AWAY.' My translation, for example, does not read 'Up.' But 'Away.'
It is mysterious to me--------------what unspeakable words Paul would have heard in Paradise (Sheol/Hades).
But..........regardless whether one thinks one 'goes to heaven' when she dies, or goes to 'Abraham's bosom'........both are nice..........and there you be
I know a man in Christ, 14 years ago (whether in the body I don't know, or outside the body I don't know; God knows) such a one was caught away to the third heaven. And I know such a man (whether in the body or outside the body, I don't know; God knows), that he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to speak,
2 Cor 12:2-3.
The conjunction 'AND,' beginning the 2nd sentence (verse 3), shows that Paradise and the third heaven differ. They cannot be the same thing. 'May your spirit AND soul AND body be preserved,' 1 Thes 5:23. 'In the beginning God created the heavens AND the earth.' 'In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God AND the Word was God'---The Word is both God...AND with God....
Anyway, hopefully some get the point
We can explore the Greek word for 'caught.....AWAY.' My translation, for example, does not read 'Up.' But 'Away.'
It is mysterious to me--------------what unspeakable words Paul would have heard in Paradise (Sheol/Hades).
But..........regardless whether one thinks one 'goes to heaven' when she dies, or goes to 'Abraham's bosom'........both are nice..........and there you be
There is 1 condition.
You must come to the Lord Jesus and ask for His Help.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Everything else you say about salvation, faith and grace is against the Gospel and against Scripture. It is your own carnal understanding of what you want the scriptures to say. Not what you have learned from the Holy Spirit.
Your post is the prime example of what I meant when I said that Salvation, Grace and Faith are almost incomprehensible to us. Only the Holy Spirit can show us.
You have your own private interpretation that agrees with works based salvation. I could keep explaining all this over and over but I don't think it will really help you.
What is this rest that Christ talks about?
What does Author and Finisher of our Faith mean? (Hebrews 12:2)
What does not of works, lest any boast mean? (Ephesians 2:8-9)
You don't know the true answers to these questions because you don't know what the rest is that Christ talks about in Matthew 11:28. Its a really simple concept that can't be grasped without the Holy Spirit, IMO.
You must come to the Lord Jesus and ask for His Help.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Everything else you say about salvation, faith and grace is against the Gospel and against Scripture. It is your own carnal understanding of what you want the scriptures to say. Not what you have learned from the Holy Spirit.
Your post is the prime example of what I meant when I said that Salvation, Grace and Faith are almost incomprehensible to us. Only the Holy Spirit can show us.
You have your own private interpretation that agrees with works based salvation. I could keep explaining all this over and over but I don't think it will really help you.
What is this rest that Christ talks about?
What does Author and Finisher of our Faith mean? (Hebrews 12:2)
What does not of works, lest any boast mean? (Ephesians 2:8-9)
You don't know the true answers to these questions because you don't know what the rest is that Christ talks about in Matthew 11:28. Its a really simple concept that can't be grasped without the Holy Spirit, IMO.
1 Thess 1:3 "work of faith" faith describes the type of work Paul is talking about.
Mk 2:1-5 Jesus "saw their faith" what Jesus saw that is called faith is the work done by those men.
James 2:15-17 "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be yewarmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
AS long as one maintains faith only that is void of works that brother and sister remain hungry, naked and destitute. It is not until that faith works are the needs of that brother or sister ever met. Faith only being dead can never accomplish anything.
Paul said to WORK out your salvation and not "do no works for your salvation".
Work katergazomai means (Thayer's):
1. to perform accomplish achieve
2. to do that from which something results
3. make every effort to obtain salvation
Therefore the context cannot mean "do no works for your salvation then after you are saved then you can do works".
The verb "work" is present tense, denoting it is an ongoing sustained work and if one quits doing this work he will be come lost. It is middle deponent show the subject chooses to do the action therefore can choose to quit doing the work. It is an imperative mood, a command that must be followed else one is doing unrighteousness if he is not participating in this work. Paul prefaced this with " as ye have always obeyed" they had been obeying in the past and must continue that work (present tense) going forward. Salvation is something that is clearly WORKED out, NOT THOUGHT out.
Phil 2:13 God is working in those that have been are are obeying Him. Those Philippians had "always obeyed" proving that God was working in them. God does not work in those that are not working, obeying Him.
Paul said to CONTINUALLY work out your salvation, therefore one cannot do nothing for his salvation then after one is saved he can do works. The salvation process requires an ongoing, present tense work.
Paul said in Rom 6:16 "obedience unto righteousness" and NOT "obedience because of righteousness".
In Rom 6:17,18 the order f events are:
1) servants of sin
2) obey from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then freed from sin
Faith only rearranges, changes, rewrites, perverts the order as Paul put obeying BEFORE freed from sin.
Many other verses put the works of believing, repenting confession and submitting to baptism BEFORE salvation.
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
The word OBEY is already in the verse and therefore cannot be added by anyone....but some here want to remove it though. This also means the "worketh not" of Eph 2:9 cannot exclude the work of obeying and it does not for Eph 2:9 excludes the work of keeping the OT aw to try and work to merit salvation. "Workth not" also cannot exclude the good works Christians are required to do in EPh 2:10. So to try and make "workth not" eliminate all woks creates a whole host of contradictions within the word of God. Was Abraham one who "worketh" or "worketh not"? If all works are the same then one cannot both work and not work, it must be one or the other.
You quickly passed over that God will have vengeance upon those that "OBEY NOT the gospel of Christ". Yet you just tried to get rid of ALL works including obeying Christ with Eph 2:9. If we all listen to you, then God will have vengeance upon us all. Your contradictions are mounting up.
Nowhere does the gospel require belief only, but requires repentance, confession, and baptism Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33, Mk 16:16. Those that fail in this are not obeying the gospel of Christ.
Man's role in the salvation process is to obey Christ, Heb 5:9, continually work out his salvation.
Free gifts come with conditions all the time> Below is a link to free gifts in the bible that came with conditions and meeting the condtion did not earn the gift but meeting the condition is part of the gift:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html
Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."
Jesus Himself said to labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life so that ends the debate there....though there are those that want to argue it just for the sake of arguing. Jesus also said He "shall GIVE unto you". Jesus GIVES it so it is free so why then did He say to labour for it if He gives it for free? Because free gifts can and do come with conditions and a condition put on this free gift is the work of believing.....You labor (by believing) for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which (everlasting life) the Son gives for free.
Here again you say salvation is "not of works" and try to eliminate ALL works yet God will have vengeance upon those that OBEY NOT, 2 Thess 1:8. Mounting contradictions.
Rom 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
There is no willing or running man could do own his own and save himself, so the plan of salvation is a free gift of God's mercy to man. Yet GOD's free plan of salvation to man does REQUIRE man's willing and running:
Jn 7:17 If any man willeth to do His will
Rev 22:17 whosoever will
Heb 12:1 run with patience
1 Cor 9:24 run that ye may obtain
Man has been commanded to repent so man must obey that command NOT God. The command to repent implies that man has both the ability, responsibility and accountability to repent and it is not God's responsibility to see that man repents or God's accountability if man does not repent. You try and put the responsibility and accountability upn God if man repents or not for if the only way I can repent is if God works repentance in me, yet God does not work repentance in me, then my impenitence would be God's fault and failure, moral culpability for failing to work repentance in me.
Men by their free will can choose to obey and confess Christ, and men can use that same free and then choose to deny Christ and turn from Him. Peter denied Christ but that did not prove he was never saved.
Mk 16:16 he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved.
The conjunction "and" ties belief to baptism making them grammatically INSEPARABLE (though some here avoid/ignore the grammar and separate them anyway for they have a religious bias to defend). The conjunction "and" gives baptism equal necessity and importance to salvation as belief meaning if one did not have to be baptized to be saved then one would not have to believe either. Yet if one must believe to be saved then he must AND be baptized also.
Many groups have fooled themselves into thinking that can create their own plan of salvation and thereby save themselves by themselves though belief only.
No one on this forum, including yourself, has proven from the bible that salvation is an UNCONDITIONAL free gift, that is, one can UNCONDITIONALLY be saved WITHOUT meeting the conditions of believing repenting confession and baptism.
Mk 2:1-5 Jesus "saw their faith" what Jesus saw that is called faith is the work done by those men.
James 2:15-17 "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be yewarmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
AS long as one maintains faith only that is void of works that brother and sister remain hungry, naked and destitute. It is not until that faith works are the needs of that brother or sister ever met. Faith only being dead can never accomplish anything.
Paul said to WORK out your salvation and not "do no works for your salvation".
Work katergazomai means (Thayer's):
1. to perform accomplish achieve
2. to do that from which something results
3. make every effort to obtain salvation
Therefore the context cannot mean "do no works for your salvation then after you are saved then you can do works".
The verb "work" is present tense, denoting it is an ongoing sustained work and if one quits doing this work he will be come lost. It is middle deponent show the subject chooses to do the action therefore can choose to quit doing the work. It is an imperative mood, a command that must be followed else one is doing unrighteousness if he is not participating in this work. Paul prefaced this with " as ye have always obeyed" they had been obeying in the past and must continue that work (present tense) going forward. Salvation is something that is clearly WORKED out, NOT THOUGHT out.
Phil 2:13 God is working in those that have been are are obeying Him. Those Philippians had "always obeyed" proving that God was working in them. God does not work in those that are not working, obeying Him.
Paul said to CONTINUALLY work out your salvation, therefore one cannot do nothing for his salvation then after one is saved he can do works. The salvation process requires an ongoing, present tense work.
Paul said in Rom 6:16 "obedience unto righteousness" and NOT "obedience because of righteousness".
In Rom 6:17,18 the order f events are:
1) servants of sin
2) obey from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then freed from sin
Faith only rearranges, changes, rewrites, perverts the order as Paul put obeying BEFORE freed from sin.
Many other verses put the works of believing, repenting confession and submitting to baptism BEFORE salvation.
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
The word OBEY is already in the verse and therefore cannot be added by anyone....but some here want to remove it though. This also means the "worketh not" of Eph 2:9 cannot exclude the work of obeying and it does not for Eph 2:9 excludes the work of keeping the OT aw to try and work to merit salvation. "Workth not" also cannot exclude the good works Christians are required to do in EPh 2:10. So to try and make "workth not" eliminate all woks creates a whole host of contradictions within the word of God. Was Abraham one who "worketh" or "worketh not"? If all works are the same then one cannot both work and not work, it must be one or the other.
You quickly passed over that God will have vengeance upon those that "OBEY NOT the gospel of Christ". Yet you just tried to get rid of ALL works including obeying Christ with Eph 2:9. If we all listen to you, then God will have vengeance upon us all. Your contradictions are mounting up.
Nowhere does the gospel require belief only, but requires repentance, confession, and baptism Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33, Mk 16:16. Those that fail in this are not obeying the gospel of Christ.
Man's role in the salvation process is to obey Christ, Heb 5:9, continually work out his salvation.
Free gifts come with conditions all the time> Below is a link to free gifts in the bible that came with conditions and meeting the condtion did not earn the gift but meeting the condition is part of the gift:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html
Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."
Jesus Himself said to labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life so that ends the debate there....though there are those that want to argue it just for the sake of arguing. Jesus also said He "shall GIVE unto you". Jesus GIVES it so it is free so why then did He say to labour for it if He gives it for free? Because free gifts can and do come with conditions and a condition put on this free gift is the work of believing.....You labor (by believing) for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which (everlasting life) the Son gives for free.
Here again you say salvation is "not of works" and try to eliminate ALL works yet God will have vengeance upon those that OBEY NOT, 2 Thess 1:8. Mounting contradictions.
Rom 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
There is no willing or running man could do own his own and save himself, so the plan of salvation is a free gift of God's mercy to man. Yet GOD's free plan of salvation to man does REQUIRE man's willing and running:
Jn 7:17 If any man willeth to do His will
Rev 22:17 whosoever will
Heb 12:1 run with patience
1 Cor 9:24 run that ye may obtain
Man has been commanded to repent so man must obey that command NOT God. The command to repent implies that man has both the ability, responsibility and accountability to repent and it is not God's responsibility to see that man repents or God's accountability if man does not repent. You try and put the responsibility and accountability upn God if man repents or not for if the only way I can repent is if God works repentance in me, yet God does not work repentance in me, then my impenitence would be God's fault and failure, moral culpability for failing to work repentance in me.
Men by their free will can choose to obey and confess Christ, and men can use that same free and then choose to deny Christ and turn from Him. Peter denied Christ but that did not prove he was never saved.
Mk 16:16 he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved.
The conjunction "and" ties belief to baptism making them grammatically INSEPARABLE (though some here avoid/ignore the grammar and separate them anyway for they have a religious bias to defend). The conjunction "and" gives baptism equal necessity and importance to salvation as belief meaning if one did not have to be baptized to be saved then one would not have to believe either. Yet if one must believe to be saved then he must AND be baptized also.
Many groups have fooled themselves into thinking that can create their own plan of salvation and thereby save themselves by themselves though belief only.
No one on this forum, including yourself, has proven from the bible that salvation is an UNCONDITIONAL free gift, that is, one can UNCONDITIONALLY be saved WITHOUT meeting the conditions of believing repenting confession and baptism.
In the New Testament, the Greek ouranos can mean “the dwelling place of God” (Matthew 12:50) or “the sky” (Acts 10:11). And paradeisos (“paradise” or “garden”) can refer to the place where dead believers await resurrection (Luke 23:43), to where God dwells now (2 Corinthians 12:4), or to our eternal home (Revelation 2:7).
Opinions differ, as I said earlier...........as with everyone else here, you are just expressing an opinion...........and that's ok.
Opinions differ, as I said earlier...........as with everyone else here, you are just expressing an opinion...........and that's ok.
While I agree partly............especially third heaven, I just wonder if this "third heaven" is where the Throne of God is, or a lower level of heaven.......because Jesus had not yet ascended when much of this was occurring. Just saying.
Something I read on "got questions.org" shows the variance............
The Hebrew for “heaven,” shamayim, only appears in the plural form and can mean “sky” (Genesis 1:8–9), “outer space” (Genesis 22:17), or “the place where God dwells” (Joshua 2:11). In the New Testament, the Greek ouranos can mean “the dwelling place of God” (Matthew 12:50) or “the sky” (Acts 10:11). And paradeisos (“paradise” or “garden”) can refer to the place where dead believers await resurrection (Luke 23:43), to where God dwells now (2 Corinthians 12:4), or to our eternal home (Revelation 2:7).
anyway..........
Something I read on "got questions.org" shows the variance............
The Hebrew for “heaven,” shamayim, only appears in the plural form and can mean “sky” (Genesis 1:8–9), “outer space” (Genesis 22:17), or “the place where God dwells” (Joshua 2:11). In the New Testament, the Greek ouranos can mean “the dwelling place of God” (Matthew 12:50) or “the sky” (Acts 10:11). And paradeisos (“paradise” or “garden”) can refer to the place where dead believers await resurrection (Luke 23:43), to where God dwells now (2 Corinthians 12:4), or to our eternal home (Revelation 2:7).
anyway..........
'their work of faith, their labour of love and their patient endurance of hope.' It is therefore clear that their hope gives them patient endurance, their love enables them to labour THEREFORE THEIR FAITH RESULTS IN WORKS. Its simple really to those who take Scripture to mean what it says.
He saw their faith. How can that be a work. They believed because of what they had heard and seen. It was genuine response not a 'work'. They did not have to put effort into it. You JWs have no awareness of what faith is.
What is he saying? He is saying that if faith is genuine it will RESULT IN WORKS. That is precisely what I have been saying all along.
Possibly you did not notice that James said that such a faith was a DEAD faith. In other words it was not really faith at all. It was simply a nominal belief, not genuine faith. NO ONE who has a genuine faith will be devoid of works. But it is his faith that saves him, the works are a product of him being saved.
All this is saying is that faith must be genuine if it is true faith. It will then result in works. The works are a product of the faith. All that is required for salvation is the genuine faith. The works will be a consequence of that salvation.
He saw their faith. How can that be a work. They believed because of what they had heard and seen. It was genuine response not a 'work'. They did not have to put effort into it. You JWs have no awareness of what faith is.
What is he saying? He is saying that if faith is genuine it will RESULT IN WORKS. That is precisely what I have been saying all along.
Possibly you did not notice that James said that such a faith was a DEAD faith. In other words it was not really faith at all. It was simply a nominal belief, not genuine faith. NO ONE who has a genuine faith will be devoid of works. But it is his faith that saves him, the works are a product of him being saved.
All this is saying is that faith must be genuine if it is true faith. It will then result in works. The works are a product of the faith. All that is required for salvation is the genuine faith. The works will be a consequence of that salvation.
As usual you show total lack of understanding. Your problem is that you simply do not know the truth about salvation. Salvation is described from four points of view.
1. Having been saved once for all (Titus 3.5.). This is the state where a person has called on Christ to save him, and Christ counts him as righteous, forgives his sins, regenerates him, renews him by the Holy Spirit, and promises to bring about his salvation from start to finish. He knows he is saved once for all. And it is 'not by works done in righteousness but according to His mercy'.
2.Having been saved and therefore now being saved (Eph 2.8-10). This is the state of a person who, having been saved as in 1, can now confidently look on himself as saved. This guarantees that his sins have been forgiven and he has been perfected for ever in God's sight (Heb 10.14), that Christ is at work in him purifying him from sin (2 Cor 3.18), and that one day he will be presented before God 'fully saved', being blameless and without blemish (Eph 5.25-27). And what is the basis of this salvation? It is by grace (God's unmerited love and favour), through faith, the free gift of God, NOT OF WORKS (Eph 2.2-9).
3). In process of being saved. This is described in 1 Cor 1.18. 'the word of the cross is the power of God to those who are being saved.' Notice the source of the salvation process. It is the cross of Christ. The power of the cross is effective in them. They are not saving themselves. They are being saved by the power of the cross and therefore by the grace of God.
This is the context of Paul's words. He says, 'you are being saved by the power of the cross, therefore put every effort into bringing about that salvation, BECAUSE IT IS GOD WHO IS AT WORK IN YOU TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE. (Phil 2.12-13)
Note the emphasis on the fact that they can do this BECAUSE GOD IS AT WORK IN THEM.
It is in fact not talking about works at all. It is talking about putting every effort into working out what God has worked in. This will of course result in works, because of God's active power within. These are a consequence of salvation.
1. Having been saved once for all (Titus 3.5.). This is the state where a person has called on Christ to save him, and Christ counts him as righteous, forgives his sins, regenerates him, renews him by the Holy Spirit, and promises to bring about his salvation from start to finish. He knows he is saved once for all. And it is 'not by works done in righteousness but according to His mercy'.
2.Having been saved and therefore now being saved (Eph 2.8-10). This is the state of a person who, having been saved as in 1, can now confidently look on himself as saved. This guarantees that his sins have been forgiven and he has been perfected for ever in God's sight (Heb 10.14), that Christ is at work in him purifying him from sin (2 Cor 3.18), and that one day he will be presented before God 'fully saved', being blameless and without blemish (Eph 5.25-27). And what is the basis of this salvation? It is by grace (God's unmerited love and favour), through faith, the free gift of God, NOT OF WORKS (Eph 2.2-9).
3). In process of being saved. This is described in 1 Cor 1.18. 'the word of the cross is the power of God to those who are being saved.' Notice the source of the salvation process. It is the cross of Christ. The power of the cross is effective in them. They are not saving themselves. They are being saved by the power of the cross and therefore by the grace of God.
This is the context of Paul's words. He says, 'you are being saved by the power of the cross, therefore put every effort into bringing about that salvation, BECAUSE IT IS GOD WHO IS AT WORK IN YOU TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE. (Phil 2.12-13)
Note the emphasis on the fact that they can do this BECAUSE GOD IS AT WORK IN THEM.
It is in fact not talking about works at all. It is talking about putting every effort into working out what God has worked in. This will of course result in works, because of God's active power within. These are a consequence of salvation.
certainly it means that they must constantly respond to God's working within them. Having been saved once for all, they are experiencing that salvation at the hands of Jesus Christ, they must therefore be active in bringing it about. But there is no mention of 'being lost if they quit'. That is your invention. If they show signs of slacking there is a remedy God will chasten them in order to make them renew their efforts (Heb 12.3 ff). But their effort is put into working OUT what God has worked IN..
Soooo?
But it is not a work in the sense that you mean. They are being commanded to work out the salvation that God is working within them. In other words they are to cooperate with God in His salvation which has become theirs because He has given it to them.. We all agree on that.
But it has to be thought out before it can be worked out. We first come to Christ and participate in salvation because we entrust ourselves into His saving hands. We then make sure that we respond to Him and work that salvation out in our daily lives because we have been saved, and we do it knowing that GOD is at work within us..
Yes because they have come to Christ for salvation, and have received it one for all, and God and Christ began working that salvation through them so that they began to obey. Paul is talking about Christians who are obeying God. And he wants them to go on obeying God and is urging them to do so, not because it will save them from God's judgment (they are already saved from that) but because it will bring about their salvation from the power of sin.
T They have always obeyed since they were first saved. Having been counted as righteous by God, and having been renewed by the Holy Spirit, they are now living in obedience to Him. And Paul is calling on them to continue their response to God at work within them.
But you are quite wrong in saying that God does not work in those who are not obeying Him. It is because He works in men that they first come to obey Him. (1 Peter 1.2). It is through the sanctifying work of the Spirit that men come to faith. And once having believed they begin to obey Him.
As I have already shown you, you are all mixed up about salvation. You are like a blind man who feels part of an elephant and then thinks that he can describe the whole. One CAN DO NOTHING towards one's initial salvation. That is wholly the work of God (Titus 3.4-7; Ephesians 2.8-10). But what one CAN DO is work out the salvation that God has GIVEN them and respond to God allowing Him to work through them, working out what God has worked in..
Soooo?
But it is not a work in the sense that you mean. They are being commanded to work out the salvation that God is working within them. In other words they are to cooperate with God in His salvation which has become theirs because He has given it to them.. We all agree on that.
But it has to be thought out before it can be worked out. We first come to Christ and participate in salvation because we entrust ourselves into His saving hands. We then make sure that we respond to Him and work that salvation out in our daily lives because we have been saved, and we do it knowing that GOD is at work within us..
Yes because they have come to Christ for salvation, and have received it one for all, and God and Christ began working that salvation through them so that they began to obey. Paul is talking about Christians who are obeying God. And he wants them to go on obeying God and is urging them to do so, not because it will save them from God's judgment (they are already saved from that) but because it will bring about their salvation from the power of sin.
T They have always obeyed since they were first saved. Having been counted as righteous by God, and having been renewed by the Holy Spirit, they are now living in obedience to Him. And Paul is calling on them to continue their response to God at work within them.
But you are quite wrong in saying that God does not work in those who are not obeying Him. It is because He works in men that they first come to obey Him. (1 Peter 1.2). It is through the sanctifying work of the Spirit that men come to faith. And once having believed they begin to obey Him.
As I have already shown you, you are all mixed up about salvation. You are like a blind man who feels part of an elephant and then thinks that he can describe the whole. One CAN DO NOTHING towards one's initial salvation. That is wholly the work of God (Titus 3.4-7; Ephesians 2.8-10). But what one CAN DO is work out the salvation that God has GIVEN them and respond to God allowing Him to work through them, working out what God has worked in..
Are you serious, or just dim? obedience unto righteousness is simply saying that as we obey God it produces righteousness. That is the common experience of all Christians. And it occurs because they have been saved and counted as righteous by God. They are obedient because of the righteousness that God has accounted to them and worked in them, and this results in further righteousness. But it all results from God's free gift of salvation (Eph 2.8-10)
yes AND HOW HAS THIS HAPPENED? (See the context). . They had been the servants of sin. they responded to God's call to be crucified with Christ and receive renewal of life through His resurrection. And the consequence was that they were freed from sin. They had been saved by God's grace through faith,
LOL but to OBEY THE GOSPEL is to BELIEVE. That IS the Gospel. That if you believe you will be saved. And once you have obeyed the Gospel by believing, you will be freed from sin. You should try it Seabass.
But believing is not a work. It is a response to an offer. Repentance is not a work, it is a change of mind resulting from hearing the Gospel. The initial confession of Christ is not a work it is the outward response of faith. So all you have left is baptism. And baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is undergone consequent on being saved.
yes AND HOW HAS THIS HAPPENED? (See the context). . They had been the servants of sin. they responded to God's call to be crucified with Christ and receive renewal of life through His resurrection. And the consequence was that they were freed from sin. They had been saved by God's grace through faith,
LOL but to OBEY THE GOSPEL is to BELIEVE. That IS the Gospel. That if you believe you will be saved. And once you have obeyed the Gospel by believing, you will be freed from sin. You should try it Seabass.
But believing is not a work. It is a response to an offer. Repentance is not a work, it is a change of mind resulting from hearing the Gospel. The initial confession of Christ is not a work it is the outward response of faith. So all you have left is baptism. And baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is undergone consequent on being saved.
So it is LOL Good job you pointed that out Now tell me. If Christ is the author/source of eternal salvation how can we save ourselves? The source of our salvation is in Him. He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to His own purpose and grace (Tit 3.5). And how has He done it? By REGENERATION and the RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
So if it is not according to works, the obedience mentioned cannot involve works. And of course it does not. It refers to obedience to the Gospel. And how do you obey the Gospel? By BELIEVING in Jesus Christ. (See post 56).
But not me
Now tell me. If Christ is the author/source of eternal salvation how can we save ourselves? The source of our salvation is in Him. He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to His own purpose and grace (Tit 3.5). And how has He done it? By REGENERATION and the RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.So if it is not according to works, the obedience mentioned cannot involve works. And of course it does not. It refers to obedience to the Gospel. And how do you obey the Gospel? By BELIEVING in Jesus Christ. (See post 56).
But not me
So it is LOL Good job you pointed that out Now tell me. If Christ is the author/source of eternal salvation how can we save ourselves? The source of our salvation is in Him. He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to His own purpose and grace (Tit 3.5). And how has He done it? By REGENERATION and the RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
So if it is not according to works, the obedience mentioned cannot involve works. And of course it does not. It refers to obedience to the Gospel. And how do you obey the Gospel? By BELIEVING in Jesus Christ. (See post 56).
But not me
Now tell me. If Christ is the author/source of eternal salvation how can we save ourselves? The source of our salvation is in Him. He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to His own purpose and grace (Tit 3.5). And how has He done it? By REGENERATION and the RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.So if it is not according to works, the obedience mentioned cannot involve works. And of course it does not. It refers to obedience to the Gospel. And how do you obey the Gospel? By BELIEVING in Jesus Christ. (See post 56).
But not me
Flob,
You have given a very thoughtful and well reasoned analysis.
However, καὶ the Greek conjunction translated as 'and' can also mean 'or' thus creating the impression that:
either Paul did not know which he visited; or they are the same place.
Furthermore there is clear linguistic evidence that in first Century Jerusalem there were conflicting views of heaven:
There was a three tiered model in which the third heaven contained the throne of God and
there was a seven tiered model in which the seventh contained the throne of God.
translating καὶ as 'and' possibly presumes the 3 tiered model; but translating καὶ as 'or' presumes the seven tiered model.
You have given a very thoughtful and well reasoned analysis.
However, καὶ the Greek conjunction translated as 'and' can also mean 'or' thus creating the impression that:
either Paul did not know which he visited; or they are the same place.
Furthermore there is clear linguistic evidence that in first Century Jerusalem there were conflicting views of heaven:
There was a three tiered model in which the third heaven contained the throne of God and
there was a seven tiered model in which the seventh contained the throne of God.
translating καὶ as 'and' possibly presumes the 3 tiered model; but translating καὶ as 'or' presumes the seven tiered model.