Scriptural support for Free Will
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That sir, is where you are wrong. Case in point, The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. Watch the movie and tell me that wasn't a process. You yourself went through a process, just as I did having grown up in a Christian household. We all go through a process by which God reveals Himself and indeed, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When I said converted I did mean a process, just like some are raised in the faith, some get saved through a supernatural vision. It isn't the same for all of us, God draws us through different methods at different times for different purposes and yet we are all saved through Christ. Each of our testimonies different and yet unified through faith in the Son of God.
Every verse that has been quoted on free will only leads to sin, even when the Son sets us free, we sin. It amazes me that those that hold to man has free will to save himself and all the Scriptures they they are excited about are about man sinning not pleasing the Lord, this is sad. The saddest pasrt is those that believe that man can save himself think they are showing by the Scriptures that man has a free will to be save, when that is so far from the truth that it is so sad that they think they are proving thier point when they are proving the Lord's point.
He is the one that saves, not man.
Why do arrogant humans want to brake the 8th commandment by stealing the Lord's glory in salvation. My Lord why would someone want to glorify themselves above the Lord? I do not get it.
WAKE UP FREE WILLERS
John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
“chooses” is word #G2309 θέλω thelo (the'-lō) v., ἐθέλω ethelo (e-the'-lō) , 1. to determine, i.e. choose or prefer., 2. (by implication) to wish, i.e. be inclined to., 3. (sometimes adverbially) gladly., 4. (impersonally for the future tense) to be about to., 5. (by Hebraism) to delight in., {literally or figuratively; as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations}, [apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138], KJV: desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)) , Root(s): G138, Compare: G140, G1014
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:24-27, “By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time, deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward. By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 4:7, “If you do right, will it not be accepted? If you don’t do right, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.”[/FONT]
“chooses” is word #G2309 θέλω thelo (the'-lō) v., ἐθέλω ethelo (e-the'-lō) , 1. to determine, i.e. choose or prefer., 2. (by implication) to wish, i.e. be inclined to., 3. (sometimes adverbially) gladly., 4. (impersonally for the future tense) to be about to., 5. (by Hebraism) to delight in., {literally or figuratively; as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations}, [apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138], KJV: desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)) , Root(s): G138, Compare: G140, G1014
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:24-27, “By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time, deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward. By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 4:7, “If you do right, will it not be accepted? If you don’t do right, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.”[/FONT]
I love this, all those that believe that man saves himself, come at it out of context, but as much as it is their fault the weight also falls on those that have been charged to feed the sheep by Jesus. They teach them out of context so that they cna teach them that man has the glory in salvation and not the Lord.
My Lord you need to repent, read the context, these verses are Jesus speaking of Himself, this is the danger of going to a church that teaches the Bible out of context. The saddest part is you think you posted something that put me in my place, when you have committed blasphamy.
John 7:14-19 “About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching.15 The Jews therefore marveled, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?”16 So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.18 The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?”
The sad part is there is no translation that uses the word "chooses" in verse 17 of chapter 7 in John, not even the Greek. You post something with your chest sticking out like you had something and you did not and if you would of it would of been talking about Jesus not man.
Joshua 24:15 is out of context as well, Joshua 24:2- 5 “And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.4 And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt.5 And I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt with what I did in the midst of it, and afterward I brought you out.
6 “‘Then I brought your fathers out of Egypt, and you came to the sea. And the Egyptians pursued your fathers with chariots and horsemen to the Red Sea.7 And when they cried to the Lord, he put darkness between you and the Egyptians and made the sea come upon them and cover them; and your eyes saw what I did in Egypt. And you lived in the wilderness a long time.8 Then I brought you to the land of the Amorites, who lived on the other side of the Jordan. They fought with you, and I gave them into your hand, and you took possession of their land, and I destroyed them before you.9 Then Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, arose and fought against Israel. And he sent and invited Balaam the son of Beor to curse you,10 but I would not listen to Balaam. Indeed, he blessed you. So I delivered you out of his hand.11 And you went over the Jordan and came to Jericho, and the leaders of Jericho fought against you, and also the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. And I gave them into your hand.12 And I sent the hornet before you, which drove them out before you, the two kings of the Amorites; it was not by your sword or by your bow.13 I gave you a land on which you had not labored and cities that you had not built, and you dwell in them. You eat the fruit of vineyards and olive orchards that you did not plant.’””
After Joshua gave them a teaching on how the Lord, TOOK Abraham out of the land of his father and how He gace Abraham, Isaac and to Isaac He gave Jacob and Esau, how He sent Moses and Aaron to Egypt and He sent the plagues to Egypt by Moses and Aaron and the Lord brought them out of Egypt.
Now after all these things that the Lord had done for them, Joshua is asking them to make a choice because of all He had done for them through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Esau. Plus the things they were an eye witnesses too, Joshua was not asking them to make a decision soley in and oif themselves, without any history of election and the Lord moving in their mist, they are His chosen people and those that are His elect will follow Him and those that are not will not follow Him, just like those that the Gospel invation goes out too..
Genesis 4:7 is talking to Cain it is not a general call to all men, sin had begun to be passed on to the human race, we are not talking about sin a 1000 years after it was passed on.
Hebrews 11:24-27 “By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.”
This is how bad it is for those that believe that man can choose salvation, these verses have nothing to do with salvation, the context is Moses choose to live with the people of God over Pharaoh's household. So you prove my point further that man's free will never choses salvation, these verses in Hebrews have nothing to do with salvation. Moses choose to live with the people of God that does not save anyone, choose to live in Israel and see if that saves you, it won't.
Context context context, topical teaching churches teach their people to take verses out of context and they think they are proving a point when they are not, they are only taking the Bible out of context. The Bible is like any other book it needs to be taught and read in context to get the truth out of it. If someone writes you a letter you do not start reading it from the middle, then go to the end, back to the third sentance, to the foirst sentance, to get the true meaning of what it says. think about it.
Do you think that the God that made the rules of reading would write His book to us, in a way that does not line up with the rules of reading? There is a book called, "How to Read a Book" it teaches you how to read books of any type. It is a good book to read it teaches how to read book including the Bible and there is another called "how to Read the Bible for all it is Worth"
First book How to Read a Book https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Book-Classic-Intelligent/dp/0671212095/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1518864090&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+read+a+book
How to Read the Bible for All it is Worth https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Bib...words=how+to+read+the+bible+for+all+its+worth
Believe me these two books will help you get all you can get out of the Bible to get the fullest meaning out of it.
My Lord you need to repent, read the context, these verses are Jesus speaking of Himself, this is the danger of going to a church that teaches the Bible out of context. The saddest part is you think you posted something that put me in my place, when you have committed blasphamy.
John 7:14-19 “About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching.15 The Jews therefore marveled, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?”16 So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.18 The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?”
The sad part is there is no translation that uses the word "chooses" in verse 17 of chapter 7 in John, not even the Greek. You post something with your chest sticking out like you had something and you did not and if you would of it would of been talking about Jesus not man.
Joshua 24:15 is out of context as well, Joshua 24:2- 5 “And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.4 And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt.5 And I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt with what I did in the midst of it, and afterward I brought you out.
6 “‘Then I brought your fathers out of Egypt, and you came to the sea. And the Egyptians pursued your fathers with chariots and horsemen to the Red Sea.7 And when they cried to the Lord, he put darkness between you and the Egyptians and made the sea come upon them and cover them; and your eyes saw what I did in Egypt. And you lived in the wilderness a long time.8 Then I brought you to the land of the Amorites, who lived on the other side of the Jordan. They fought with you, and I gave them into your hand, and you took possession of their land, and I destroyed them before you.9 Then Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, arose and fought against Israel. And he sent and invited Balaam the son of Beor to curse you,10 but I would not listen to Balaam. Indeed, he blessed you. So I delivered you out of his hand.11 And you went over the Jordan and came to Jericho, and the leaders of Jericho fought against you, and also the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. And I gave them into your hand.12 And I sent the hornet before you, which drove them out before you, the two kings of the Amorites; it was not by your sword or by your bow.13 I gave you a land on which you had not labored and cities that you had not built, and you dwell in them. You eat the fruit of vineyards and olive orchards that you did not plant.’””
After Joshua gave them a teaching on how the Lord, TOOK Abraham out of the land of his father and how He gace Abraham, Isaac and to Isaac He gave Jacob and Esau, how He sent Moses and Aaron to Egypt and He sent the plagues to Egypt by Moses and Aaron and the Lord brought them out of Egypt.
Now after all these things that the Lord had done for them, Joshua is asking them to make a choice because of all He had done for them through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Esau. Plus the things they were an eye witnesses too, Joshua was not asking them to make a decision soley in and oif themselves, without any history of election and the Lord moving in their mist, they are His chosen people and those that are His elect will follow Him and those that are not will not follow Him, just like those that the Gospel invation goes out too..
Genesis 4:7 is talking to Cain it is not a general call to all men, sin had begun to be passed on to the human race, we are not talking about sin a 1000 years after it was passed on.
Hebrews 11:24-27 “By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.”
This is how bad it is for those that believe that man can choose salvation, these verses have nothing to do with salvation, the context is Moses choose to live with the people of God over Pharaoh's household. So you prove my point further that man's free will never choses salvation, these verses in Hebrews have nothing to do with salvation. Moses choose to live with the people of God that does not save anyone, choose to live in Israel and see if that saves you, it won't.
Context context context, topical teaching churches teach their people to take verses out of context and they think they are proving a point when they are not, they are only taking the Bible out of context. The Bible is like any other book it needs to be taught and read in context to get the truth out of it. If someone writes you a letter you do not start reading it from the middle, then go to the end, back to the third sentance, to the foirst sentance, to get the true meaning of what it says. think about it.
Do you think that the God that made the rules of reading would write His book to us, in a way that does not line up with the rules of reading? There is a book called, "How to Read a Book" it teaches you how to read books of any type. It is a good book to read it teaches how to read book including the Bible and there is another called "how to Read the Bible for all it is Worth"
First book How to Read a Book https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Book-Classic-Intelligent/dp/0671212095/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1518864090&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+read+a+book
How to Read the Bible for All it is Worth https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Bib...words=how+to+read+the+bible+for+all+its+worth
Believe me these two books will help you get all you can get out of the Bible to get the fullest meaning out of it.
Get this straight and stop with all the conflation about free will and mans ability to choose. We are set free from the penalty of sin when we are born again into Christ. We are still in the body of flesh and still subject to its weaknesses. We still are subject to sinning even after we are saved because we have not yet received our glorified bodies.
We have a new master in Christ but we still fall to the old sinful tendencies we had before we were saved. Our new man in Christ now has remorse where the old man had no conscience of how his transgression offended God.
This is what happens when people over learn simple bible truths.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We have a new master in Christ but we still fall to the old sinful tendencies we had before we were saved. Our new man in Christ now has remorse where the old man had no conscience of how his transgression offended God.
This is what happens when people over learn simple bible truths.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Who believes they save themselves 
Do you not believe in co-operating with the Holy Spirit of God?
Or are all your choices predetermined, and you have no choice, and
therefore no responsibility in any matter since all is pre-ordained?
Do you not believe in co-operating with the Holy Spirit of God?
Or are all your choices predetermined, and you have no choice, and
therefore no responsibility in any matter since all is pre-ordained?
Thank you for bring this up, because this is where I believe those that believe in man's free will to choose salvation over God's sovereignty in chosing man for salvation is where it all need clarification. Is it man who initiates salvation or man?
But, let me answer your questions first. Yes those that are saved co-operate with the Holy Spirit in thier sanctification process. We know that because of what Philipians 2:12-13 say.
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
Before we move on I would like to bring something up here, it seems like those that believe that man chooses God of their own free will with no action by the Lord first. Seem to associate all of lifes chooses on the same level as the choice to choose the Lord. The reason I say this is because in my discussions with those that believe in man's free will to choose God always post verses or questions that have to do with everyday life. Of course we make choices in life freely they are not preordained by the Lord. But when it comes to the will to chose the Lord it is impossible for man to do, because we are slaves to sin. I will show that by answering the seond question.
The second question is where I believe all the confusion comes into play, we are responsibile for what we do and will be condemned for those choices. Unless God comes to rescue us, because we chose sin over Jesus. John 3:18-21
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.”
But those that come to the light do so that it may be shown that thier works or their salvation was accomplished by God, not of themselves. Here is where the two differing views go thier own ways, are we born again because of our faith or is our faith the result of being born again?
I believe it is the latter, because the Father causes us to be born again, I Peter 1:3 “According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”
Now that we are born again we are no longer slaves to sin, John 8:34 “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.” Being born again we are no longer slave to sin and can see the kingdom of God, John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Now that we have been freed from sin and can see the kingdom of God, because the eyes of our understanding have been opened from being blinded by the god of this world, II Corinthians 4:3-4 “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
We will now understand the Gospel of our salvation, the word of truth and because of the council of His will we respond to the work He has done in us, so that we can see the great love with which He loved us by sending His own Son to die for our sins while we still. With this back drop or foundation we can see how it is Christ's life/blood justified us and by faith we stand continuing in grace.
Romans 5:1-11 “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
Ephesians 1:11-14 “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”