Septunagit (With Apocrypha books)

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Jan 20, 2016
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#1
What's the general consensus on the Septunagit...and the Apocrypha books?

To my understanding, these were all the books of the Torah and the old bible, prior to Jesus. It was what Jesus referred to when admonishing the Jewish authorities. While Jesus was the last Adam, and saved us from ALL sin on the Cross, what value is the septunagit to us?

Does it contain truth withheld by authorities, or was it unnecessary? Please be advises, I am an academic asking this question. Please do not give me a lazy answer.

Thank you.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#2
The apocryphal writings were not considered inspired by anyone, most certainly not by the Israelis, until the Roman Catholic church canonized them in the fifteen hundreds to prop up some of their questionable doctrines. They were added to what is considered holy writ, not removed. The apocrypha was not in the Hebrew canon. You may find this page enlightening: click
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#3
The Septuagint is Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. It was translated around 300 years BC for Jews living in Alexandria who spoke Greek, which was the common language of much of the population around the middle east before and after the time of Christ. It was used by the early church and the OT quotations in the New Testament come from this version. What Protestants call the Apocrypha consists of seven books and part books which were not included in the Hebrew Cannon of Scripture. They were included in Bibles up until the reformation and are still found in Catholic and Orthodox churches. There are a number of reasons that they are not considered inspired, the main ones being that there
are no Prophesies in any of them. Jesus and the NT writers never quote from them. They contain statements that go against the rest of scripture and they are historically inaccurate in places. I hope this is of help.
 
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Siberian_Khatru

Guest
#4
The apocryphal writings were not considered inspired by anyone, most certainly not by the Israelis, until the Roman Catholic church canonized them in the fifteen hundreds to prop up some of their questionable doctrines. They were added to what is considered holy writ, not removed. The apocrypha was not in the Hebrew canon. You may find this page enlightening: click
Link no worky. :(

@Alexander - You may find the book Misquoting Jesus interesting. It touches upon the different schools of thought leading up to canonization, among other things. It's not how it sounds, either; it's not a book bent on dissuading the believer or intending to perverse or insult Christianity.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#6
Hmmm, that time it showed up as a link :D
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
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#7
I'm currently reading the Apocrypha. I can see why the books were left out because they are confusing poorly written
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#8
The apostles used the Septuagint (LXX) or possibly a pre-Masoretic Text (MT) Hebrew version. The MT has errors, the LXX has errors. I use both.
 
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didymos

Guest
#9
What's the general consensus on the Septunagit....
That it's spelled 'Septuagint,' not 'Septunagit.'

(You're an academic, you should know... don't ask 'lazy' questions) ;)
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#10
I recommend two books on the subject

Bruce, F.F., "The Canon of Scripture"
Geisler and Nix, "A General Introduction To The Bible"

There are two additional books that give added help but no matter what I teach you regarding the Canon of Scripture, there are people hell bent on adding to the Canon and they will work very hard at confusing you so that you accept their books.

I think people really need to start from Deuteronomy 18 to help determine the cannon. God said He would raise up a prophet and if people don't listen then God would require it of him (v. 19). It also says if the prophet speaks in the name of other gods (plural) or if the thing doesn't come to pass (v. 22) then the prophet is in a lot of trouble.

You might ask what a prophet has to do with the "Cannon" of Scripture? It all has to do with claims of authority to speak for God since the Church which was "...built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" (Ephesians 2:20).

Then you have a framework to start asking questions like: Who were the apostles and prophets? One clue comes from Jesus and it is important for everyone to know their Bibles. "That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation."-Luke 11:50-51

There you start with a genealogy of the prophets which was from Abel to Zacherias. If you have books before or after these men then you have to have other Biblical support from Jesus or they have to be classified apart from the Prophets.

Another evidence for what was included in the Canon comes from Jesus. “…that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms concerning me.”-Luke 24:44 Jesus gives the division of scripture and it doesn’t include the Apocrypha because the division is "The Law of Moses", "The Prophets" and the "Psalms".
 
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Depleted

Guest
#11
What's the general consensus on the Septunagit...and the Apocrypha books?

To my understanding, these were all the books of the Torah and the old bible, prior to Jesus. It was what Jesus referred to when admonishing the Jewish authorities. While Jesus was the last Adam, and saved us from ALL sin on the Cross, what value is the septunagit to us?

Does it contain truth withheld by authorities, or was it unnecessary? Please be advises, I am an academic asking this question. Please do not give me a lazy answer.

Thank you.
Why not? Academics do their own homework. (Especially funny since a similar question was asked just a few days ago, but you didn't look at it for for it.) Besides, you've already made it abundantly clear, you're not interested in seeking anything about God. You're more into how-to-get-rich-quick.

But, hey, let me give you the full answer -- F.F. Bruce The
Parchments and the Books
 
Sep 16, 2014
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#12
Jesus NEVER quoted from the Apocrypha books. The Apocrypha Books were inserted in the Scriptures by evil men who refused to Worship God.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#14
What's the general consensus on the Septunagit...and the Apocrypha books?

To my understanding, these were all the books of the Torah and the old bible, prior to Jesus. It was what Jesus referred to when admonishing the Jewish authorities. While Jesus was the last Adam, and saved us from ALL sin on the Cross, what value is the septunagit to us?

Does it contain truth withheld by authorities, or was it unnecessary? Please be advises, I am an academic asking this question. Please do not give me a lazy answer.

Thank you.
The Septuagint in some books was well translated. But in many books its translation is very loose and it has large amounts which are added to the mt. It is not in the main a reliable translation of the Hebrew text.

Jesus never quoted from the Apocrypha and it is questionable whether He even knew of it.
 
Jan 20, 2016
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#15
Jesus never quoted from the Apocrypha and it is questionable whether He even knew of it.
That's actually the reason I chose to even consider over-viewing the Septuagint.

In the time of Jesus, obviously, there was no New Testament yet. Jesus IS the foundation of the New Testament, among other things, such as our salvation and redemption. In this time of the Jewish pharisees and scribes, they had their source of scripture (Which I understand to be the Jewish Torah/Talmud), and as a result, the BOY Jesus, learned of the basic tenets of faith from these works, and most of the admonition Jesus gave towards the hypocrite Jewish pharisees and sadducees was based on the scriptural work provided during that time period, which was most of the books of the Septuagint (And therefore, by association, the Torah/Talmud).

One point I want to make clear, which we can ALL agree on, as Christians, is that by the death and ressurection of our LORD Jesus Christ, we are brought to salvation without the need to adhere to Jewish law. The context of OUR faith lies in Jesus, but in the PERSPECTIVE of the context of the Septuagint/Apocrypha, we are talking about BEFORE JESUS' CRUCIFIXION, which is BEFORE BORN-AGAIN SALVATION.

In the context of the OLD TESTAMENT and God's plan from Adam to Christ, does the Septuagint hold as probable spiritual history, akin to the likes of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, and the Prophets? Are they irrelevant? Do they hold historical significance? Are they to be considered part of God's plan?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#16
The translators of all modern Bibles, including the New King James, use the Septuagint along with other texts in translating the Bible. They claim that the Septuagint contains true readings not found in the preserved Hebrew text. Thus they give it great importance.

So we have textual critics who believe desperately in the 45 Alexandrian manuscripts (against more than 5,000 copies favoring the Textus Receptus). They use these to translate all modern New Testaments. But these Alexandrian manuscripts also include the Septuagint Old Testament (with the Apocrypha). They have fallen for a trap.

Catholics now argue the following: If you accept the Alexandrian text (which modern scholars use as the basis for all new translations) for your New Testament, then you also have to accept the rest of the Alexandrian text(Septuagint) , which includes the Apocrypha. What we are seeing is the development of an ecumenical Bible, including the Apocrypha. Some versions have already gone this way. For many Protestants, all roads are truly leading to Rome.

But do we Christians need the Alexandrian manuscripts? Not at all! For the Old Testament we have the Preserved Words of God in the Hebrew Masoretic text. For the New Testament we have the 5,000-plus manuscripts in Greek, plus the many early translations spread abroad, to witness to the actual words of Christ and His apostles.
 
Jan 20, 2016
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#17
But do we Christians need the Alexandrian manuscripts? Not at all! For the Old Testament we have the Preserved Words of God in the Hebrew Masoretic text. For the New Testament we have the 5,000-plus manuscripts in Greek, plus the many early translations spread abroad, to witness to the actual words of Christ and His apostles.
The Alexandrian manuscripts are new news to me. I had no recollection prior to your mentioning of it. I may not explore that route.

What I gathered...is that the Apocrypha may not be inspired, but I have reason to believe the other books of the Septuagint may shed light on the history of God's work throughout the OT (The Book of Enoch comes to mind)

Again, It seems that there is a debateable ground. Here's what I understand

The Septuagint has merit in the story of the LORD's work since creation
The Apocrypha may be faulty and uninspired.

Would I be correct in saying this?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#18
The Alexandrian manuscripts are new news to me. I had no recollection prior to your mentioning of it. I may not explore that route.

What I gathered...is that the Apocrypha may not be inspired, but I have reason to believe the other books of the Septuagint may shed light on the history of God's work throughout the OT (The Book of Enoch comes to mind)

Again, It seems that there is a debateable ground. Here's what I understand

The Septuagint has merit in the story of the LORD's work since creation
The Apocrypha may be faulty and uninspired.

Would I be correct in saying this?
Maccabees is a good history of the period between Malachi and Christ. Only one I would recommend.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#19
What's the general consensus on the Septunagit...and the Apocrypha books?

To my understanding, these were all the books of the Torah and the old bible, prior to Jesus. It was what Jesus referred to when admonishing the Jewish authorities. While Jesus was the last Adam, and saved us from ALL sin on the Cross, what value is the septunagit to us?

Does it contain truth withheld by authorities, or was it unnecessary? Please be advises, I am an academic asking this question. Please do not give me a lazy answer.

Thank you.
The value of the Septuagint is being able to do comparisons of the Greek between the New Testament and the Old Testament. Since both are in Greek, you can compare the words used in the OT with the NT with more confidence. If Christ used the Septuagint and referred to it, then you may be able to make inferences between the two.

For instance, Christ refers to himself as "I am" in John 8:24. The label "I am" is used in Exodus 3:14 so one may be able to infer that Christ is YHVH...in both cases the phrase is "ego eimi".

There may be some issue with this particular example, but that's the general logic. If Jesus used the Septuagint (which is likely) and didn't comment on its inaccuracies, one may infer that this sort of analysis is appropriate.

Also, there are some superior texts in the Septuagint that have a better, more consistent rendering, which may indicate better source texts that were available to the Septuagint translators. For example, there are a few cases where numbers in Kings are not consistent with Chronicles (only a few). In the Septuagint, these inconsistencies aren't there, so it's possible the Septuagint had a better source Hebrew than the one which is commonly used with our English translations.

Compare I Kings 4:26 with II Chron 9:25. There are other explanations, but I think the above explanation is better.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#20
The Alexandrian manuscripts are new news to me. I had no recollection prior to your mentioning of it. I may not explore that route.

What I gathered...is that the Apocrypha may not be inspired, but I have reason to believe the other books of the Septuagint may shed light on the history of God's work throughout the OT (The Book of Enoch comes to mind)

Again, It seems that there is a debateable ground. Here's what I understand

The Septuagint has merit in the story of the LORD's work since creation
The Apocrypha may be faulty and uninspired.

Would I be correct in saying this?
Alexander, John146 is a KJV only person.

I would suggest reading the book King James Only Controversy by James White if this issue is of concern to you.

KJV Only people claim that the older manuscript evidence incorporated in the Nestle Aland Greek New Testament is corrupted. I definitely do not agree with this position. The older manuscript evidence is closer to the original writings (the autographs) and thus contains less copying errors.

The problem is that Erasmus, who compiled the Textus Receptus, did not have access to very many Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Much more, and older, manuscript evidence was found in more recent years and incorporated into the Nestle Aland New Testament.

We also know that Erasmus was affected by the Roman Catholic Church and included some items, such as the Comma Johanneum, into the Textus Receptus based on a fraudulent manuscript provided to him by Catholic sources. So, the Textus Receptus is tainted as a result.

There are a handful of sections of Scripture affected by this Textus Receptus issue, including Mark 16:9-20 (the long ending of Mark) and the Comma Johanneum.

KJV Only people are traditionalists and believe in a satanic conspiracy to water down the word of God, claiming that modern translations are the result. They want to enslave Christians to a 400 year old version of the Bible which does not convey meaning in an effective way to the modern generation.

The corrections reflected in modern translations, based on these earlier manuscripts, do not affect any major doctrines, and in fact clarify some Scriptures which show the deity of Christ better, as the KJV authors did not understand the Granville-Sharp construct...this is a technical Greek issue that would take a long time to explain, but basically it shows that a phrase like "Our God and Savior Jesus Christ" is not speaking of God the Father and Jesus Christ, but is calling Jesus Christ both God and Savior.

I am not a big fan of KJV Onlyism as it basically requires one to insert another level of analysis in order to properly understand the Bible. As a young believer, I had to look up words in a dictionary to derive the proper meaning, or do additional research, because of the archaic nature of the language. For example, the phrase "fetch a compass" in KJV language means to "go around'. How many modern day English speakers would know that?

I feel sorry for younger seekers who read the KJV and think that God's word can only be properly understood through it.

By the way some of the major proponents of KJV Onlyism include Gail Riplinger (a graphic designer with no original language training), Peter Ruckman ( a dingbat who claims the CIA planted brain transmitters in old and black and mentally handicapped people and operates alien breeding facilities), Kent Hovind (who just spent a long time in prison for tax evasion) and Steven Anderson (who prayed for Obama to die of brain cancer and for all homosexuals to die of brain cancer). There's a few people who aren't whacko, but as you can see some of the major "authority figures" are not well balanced.

If you want to have a discussion on this topic sometime we can. You know where to find me :)
 
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