Should We Pray to Mary?
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K
Of course not! We have only one mediator, and that is Jesus Christ.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5
Also, before anyone says, or maybe it has already been said, dead saints don't pray for us, neither are we encouraged to seek their intercession. We are forbidden from contacting dead people.
or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. Deut 18:11-12
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5
Also, before anyone says, or maybe it has already been said, dead saints don't pray for us, neither are we encouraged to seek their intercession. We are forbidden from contacting dead people.
or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. Deut 18:11-12
K
Definition of ADVOCATE
1
: one that pleads the cause of another; specifically : one that pleads the cause of another before a tribunal or judicial court
2
: one that defends or maintains a cause or proposal
3
: one that supports or promotes the interests of another
mediator
1
: one that mediates; especially : one that mediates between parties at variance
2
: a mediating agent in a physical, chemical, or biological process
1
: one that pleads the cause of another; specifically : one that pleads the cause of another before a tribunal or judicial court
2
: one that defends or maintains a cause or proposal
3
: one that supports or promotes the interests of another
mediator
1
: one that mediates; especially : one that mediates between parties at variance
2
: a mediating agent in a physical, chemical, or biological process
- Isaiah 38:18-19, "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth."
T
@Kayem77
Hi.
Dead saints don't pray for us? Heh . . . do you have evidence for that particular claim?
Contacting the angels, saints, and the virgin Mary is not the same as conjuring spells or summoning the dead. Rather, it should be considered as communication with our other family.
Jesus Christ is the one to focus on, but directing our attention toward him and only him would be rejecting the graces we would receive from the angels and saints who, like Jesus Christ, also wish to help us. It's like building a relationship with your dad -who is in charge of all of your medical bills and what-not- while ignoring the rest of the household.
Hi.
Dead saints don't pray for us? Heh . . . do you have evidence for that particular claim?
Contacting the angels, saints, and the virgin Mary is not the same as conjuring spells or summoning the dead. Rather, it should be considered as communication with our other family.
Jesus Christ is the one to focus on, but directing our attention toward him and only him would be rejecting the graces we would receive from the angels and saints who, like Jesus Christ, also wish to help us. It's like building a relationship with your dad -who is in charge of all of your medical bills and what-not- while ignoring the rest of the household.
T
I believe there are Christians amongst the Catholic denomination, as I believe there are Christians amongst the Protestant denominations, but I can't help seeing that there's a saint for everything. They certainly have similarities to the designations given to pagan gods and goddesses (a saint for lost people, a saint for transportation). We don't need that nonsense. We have the Lord of All! Besides, every follower of Christ is a saint, not just the big-wigs. We're saints because of Christ's righteousness, not our own perceived 'goodness'.
K
I ask you your own question 
. Show me biblical evidence where we are commanded or even just encouraged to seek prayers from dead saints.
And on the second part I highlighted, show me where in the Bible we receive grace from anyone else who is not Jesus Christ. God is the only one who gives grace. That's the whole point of the gospel. If we could receive grace from anyone else, Jesus wouldn't have died for us.
I was Catholic. I was raised to believe that ''rejecting Jesus's Mother is ultimately disrespectful to God''. But then I read the Bible and found out that is not true. Never in the Bible did I see an apostle praying to Mary or ''venerating'' her, or praying to Moses or John the Baptists.
. Show me biblical evidence where we are commanded or even just encouraged to seek prayers from dead saints. And on the second part I highlighted, show me where in the Bible we receive grace from anyone else who is not Jesus Christ. God is the only one who gives grace. That's the whole point of the gospel. If we could receive grace from anyone else, Jesus wouldn't have died for us.
I was Catholic. I was raised to believe that ''rejecting Jesus's Mother is ultimately disrespectful to God''. But then I read the Bible and found out that is not true. Never in the Bible did I see an apostle praying to Mary or ''venerating'' her, or praying to Moses or John the Baptists.
2
We should not pray to the dead.
they cant hear you anyway
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Jesus said we should pray to the father.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive your trespasses.
Mat 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
they cant hear you anyway
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Jesus said we should pray to the father.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive your trespasses.
Mat 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
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I ask you your own question . Show me biblical evidence where we are commanded or even just encouraged to seek prayers from dead saints.
And on the second part I highlighted, show me where in the Bible we receive grace from anyone else who is not Jesus Christ. God is the only one who gives grace. That's the whole point of the gospel. If we could receive grace from anyone else, Jesus wouldn't have died for us.
I was Catholic. I was raised to believe that ''rejecting Jesus's Mother is ultimately disrespectful to God''. But then I read the Bible and found out that is not true. Never in the Bible did I see an apostle praying to Mary or ''venerating'' her, or praying to Moses or John the Baptists.
. Show me biblical evidence where we are commanded or even just encouraged to seek prayers from dead saints. And on the second part I highlighted, show me where in the Bible we receive grace from anyone else who is not Jesus Christ. God is the only one who gives grace. That's the whole point of the gospel. If we could receive grace from anyone else, Jesus wouldn't have died for us.
I was Catholic. I was raised to believe that ''rejecting Jesus's Mother is ultimately disrespectful to God''. But then I read the Bible and found out that is not true. Never in the Bible did I see an apostle praying to Mary or ''venerating'' her, or praying to Moses or John the Baptists.
For example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
It is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.
There's so much. I suggest you read your bible again.
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
That's just scratching the surface.
You say that you "were" Catholic? Once a Catholic always a Catholic.
My good God, girl. You gave up Christ in the most blessed sacrament for some modern-day fundamentalist nonsense?
Do a proper examination of conscience, give your confession, and return to Christ's Holy Catholic Church and our Lord in the Eucharist. See you at Mass on Sunday.
"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you."
T
Maynard already stated the points I was typing in. I'll submit this post anyway just to back him up.
@Kayem77
Hi.
View Revelation 5:8 as an example. Here, the saints offer our prayers to God in the form of golden bowls, hinting that they are mindful of our requests and that they intercede for us.
You misunderstand the purpose of asking the saints to pray for us.
We ask the saints to intercede for us simply because we need help, and asking others to pray for us doesn't at all contradict Christ's role as the connection between God and man.
The saints are essentially Christians who are 100% pure and without the stains of sin, so their prayers will of course, be more effective than ours. These pure Christians are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Heh . . . we might as well take advantage of their love!
Timothy 2:1-4 encourages us to pray for each other. Why would the saints and the angels, who enjoy Heaven now and forever, be excluded from prayer, which strengthens the body of Christ??
[HR][/HR]
Praying to Jesus directly is of course effective. This doesn't mean that asking for prayers from others is bad. By discouraging others from seeking the saint's aid, we're be holding people back from the help of blessed souls who are most eager to lend a sinless hand.
@Kayem77
Hi.
View Revelation 5:8 as an example. Here, the saints offer our prayers to God in the form of golden bowls, hinting that they are mindful of our requests and that they intercede for us.
You misunderstand the purpose of asking the saints to pray for us. We ask the saints to intercede for us simply because we need help, and asking others to pray for us doesn't at all contradict Christ's role as the connection between God and man.
The saints are essentially Christians who are 100% pure and without the stains of sin, so their prayers will of course, be more effective than ours. These pure Christians are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Heh . . . we might as well take advantage of their love!
Timothy 2:1-4 encourages us to pray for each other. Why would the saints and the angels, who enjoy Heaven now and forever, be excluded from prayer, which strengthens the body of Christ??
[HR][/HR]
Praying to Jesus directly is of course effective. This doesn't mean that asking for prayers from others is bad. By discouraging others from seeking the saint's aid, we're be holding people back from the help of blessed souls who are most eager to lend a sinless hand.
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T
In the literal sense, saints are not dead. If anything, they're filled with glory, happiness, and joy that exceeds far that of our own glory and happiness right now.
How can the souls in Heaven not hear us, bud? One of the promises of Heaven is knowledge; I can't see that we wouldn't be allowed to be aware of the prayers being said on Earth.
The dead who can't hear us are the ones in Hell.
If anything, they're filled with glory, happiness, and joy that exceeds far that of our own glory and happiness right now. How can the souls in Heaven not hear us, bud? One of the promises of Heaven is knowledge; I can't see that we wouldn't be allowed to be aware of the prayers being said on Earth.
The dead who can't hear us are the ones in Hell.
Yes!
[video=youtube_share;V6OwlfNwc9A]http://youtu.be/V6OwlfNwc9A[/video]
Praying to the Saints
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
"No Contact with the dead"
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Overlooking the Obvious
Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:
"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?
"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.
"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.
The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
"Directly to Jesus"
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.
The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Praying to the Saints
[video=youtube_share;V6OwlfNwc9A]http://youtu.be/V6OwlfNwc9A[/video]
Praying to the Saints
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
"No Contact with the dead"
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Overlooking the Obvious
Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:
"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?
"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.
"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.
The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
"Directly to Jesus"
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.
The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Praying to the Saints
This subject has been discussed on numerous occassions, there were no commas in the original Greek. They were added much later (10th to 11th century). You do realize that the Hebrew scriptures did not even have vowels don't you? Anyhoo,
What if we read this...
Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
as this...
Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."
Now it is in complete agrement with the rest of the scripture. Christ is the firstborn among many brethren and this is in full agreement with I Cor 15:22-23
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
and every other scripture that says the dead rise at the return of Christ.
What if we read this...
Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
as this...
Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."
Now it is in complete agrement with the rest of the scripture. Christ is the firstborn among many brethren and this is in full agreement with I Cor 15:22-23
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
and every other scripture that says the dead rise at the return of Christ.
I certainly do...
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
The dead are dead. The hope of the dead is the resurrection...
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
The dead are dead. The hope of the dead is the resurrection...
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
In the literal sense, saints are not dead. If anything, they're filled with glory, happiness, and joy that exceeds far that of our own glory and happiness right now.
How can the souls in Heaven not hear us, bud? One of the promises of Heaven is knowledge; I can't see that we wouldn't be allowed to be aware of the prayers being said on Earth.
The dead who can't hear us are the ones in Hell.
If anything, they're filled with glory, happiness, and joy that exceeds far that of our own glory and happiness right now. How can the souls in Heaven not hear us, bud? One of the promises of Heaven is knowledge; I can't see that we wouldn't be allowed to be aware of the prayers being said on Earth.
The dead who can't hear us are the ones in Hell.
Praying to “Our Lady of Guadalupe”? Why are you endorsing idolatry on a Christian forum?
It is written:
Exodus 20:3-5
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
1 Corinthians 10:14
14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
It is written:
Exodus 20:3-5
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
1 Corinthians 10:14
14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.