Simple Question...No Simple Answer

[Kaycie]

Your Question: "If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?

Answer: No- because faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For example, one would not step on the brake of their car unless they believed that it would cause the car to stop. BUT if you had faith only- if you only believed that pressing on the brake would work, but did not actually press on the brake, then your faith is useless because it does not result in any progress or accomplishment- and is therefore not beneficial to you at all- it is the same result as not having faith at all.

 

[jahsoul]

The reason faith+ works is such an insidious doctrine, is because you can never do enough, never be good enough to merit salvation based on your works.

Name me one deed, one work, one effort that even comes close to Jesus sacrifice on the cross! You can't! Because there is none!

Salvation is a gift of God!

When end does one finally get to say "NOW I am finally saved?" Never! When have you done enough works? Never!

That is why I will stick to the Bible, which tells me I am justified by faith alone. Why do I believe this? Because I can never earn my salvation, because I know I am a just sinner saved by the amazing grace of God.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." John 3:16-17

For the believer, faith and works go hand in hand. Sometimes, we get so caught up over things that we totally ignore that Jesus DID. Jesus gave parables that also dealt with doing. Yes, the Bible tells us that we are justified by faith, but that same Bible tells us that faith without works means nothing. How is our faith seen by the world? Through our works. As a believer, you cannot have one without the other. It's a major difference between doing to be saved and doing because we are saved...

 

[4enlightment]

Those that follow the man-made teaching of FAITH ONLY have said many times a saving faith WILL produce works.



Simple question:

If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?


No simple answer:

If the faith only advocate answers "no" then he is refuting his own belief that FAITH ONLY saves.

If the faith only advocate answers "yes" then he is refuting his own statement that a saving faith WILL produce works and conflicting Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.



[It also conflicts Lk 13:3,5 that one must repent to be saved, Mt 10:32,33 and Rom 10:9,10 one must confess to be saved and Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 one must be baptized...will FAITH ONLY save one that will not repent, will not confess Christ and who is lost in his unforgiven sins anyway?]

We are suppose to help build up one another faith and which that takes works, and spreading the word takes works as well. But if you lie around in your room and just believing isn't faith; but you will be consider as a lazy servant.

Matthew 25:

23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’ 26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

And so I think you better get from out of your bed and get to work.

 

[elf3]

Those that follow the man-made teaching of FAITH ONLY have said many times a saving faith WILL produce works.



Simple question:

If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?


No simple answer:

If the faith only advocate answers "no" then he is refuting his own belief that FAITH ONLY saves.

If the faith only advocate answers "yes" then he is refuting his own statement that a saving faith WILL produce works and conflicting Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.



[It also conflicts Lk 13:3,5 that one must repent to be saved, Mt 10:32,33 and Rom 10:9,10 one must confess to be saved and Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 one must be baptized...will FAITH ONLY save one that will not repent, will not confess Christ and who is lost in his unforgiven sins anyway?]

Basically seabass is going to try and prove every person wrong by a basic question going back to a question about God's Sovereignty. Can God create and object so big he cannot move? No matter what you say he will try and prove you wrong and himself right when there is a very simple answer most people don't think of.

No God cannot create and object He cannot move for if he cannot move it He is not Sovereign.

Faith only saves but that faith in God is shown through our "good works". Haha! So faith only doesn't save! Wrong! You look at it from the wrong direction.

By asking this question you are looking for a conundrum where one doesn't exist.

Saying faith alone means that it's our faith in the blood Christ to "wash us clean" in the eyes of God not by what we do. But also our faith in God will be seen in our actions. Our WHOLE attitude now changes by who "rules" our lives. If sin still ruled our life we sure wouldn't do good except by a lie created by the father of lies. But now that Christ "rules" our lives our "walk" is different. We talk, act and treat others different. So our faith in God changes our attitude not our attitude changes our faith. Our life is now a life of love not a life of selfishness. By a life of selfishness we feel we must add to our salvation...I know better than God.

The only way you can say that we are justified before God by baptism or "good works" is if you feel Christ's blood isn't enough to cover your sins. Are you washed by the blood of Christ, or are you washed by the blood of Christ and your actions?

What is trying to be argued here are actually two types of faith. A saving faith and a false faith. A saving faith is one who relies upon God. A false faith is one who "plays the part" but doesn't rely upon God. A true faith in Christ will be only to Glorify God. A false faith will be trying to make themselves look "holy" before man.

So do you have the saving faith in Christ or the false faith in self? Either you trust in God for your faith or you trust in yourself for your salvation. One way Glorifies God the other way puts you before God.

 

[elf3]

Those that follow the man-made teaching of FAITH ONLY have said many times a saving faith WILL produce works.



Simple question:

If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?


No simple answer:

If the faith only advocate answers "no" then he is refuting his own belief that FAITH ONLY saves.

If the faith only advocate answers "yes" then he is refuting his own statement that a saving faith WILL produce works and conflicting Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.



[It also conflicts Lk 13:3,5 that one must repent to be saved, Mt 10:32,33 and Rom 10:9,10 one must confess to be saved and Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 one must be baptized...will FAITH ONLY save one that will not repent, will not confess Christ and who is lost in his unforgiven sins anyway?]

Faith alone actually NEVER says don't repent. (Not quite sure where this assumption came from) Actually the complete opposite. Repent before God. It's all in the faith not in what you do. If it's up to what we do would we ever turn to God?

If God is your Co - pilot then your in the wrong seat.

In other words...who do you want controlling your life? You in control or God in control?

 

[Flamingspirit]

We are saved by faith alone. That being said, faith without works is dead. What this means is that no work, good or bad can save you. It's not about that with God. He is Spirit and love. He loves us all, and He can and will save all, we just have to believe (have faith) in Him to do so. Now what if someone didn't believe or demonstrate faith? Doesn't matter to God because again He loves that person and not only believes He can save him, but WILL because He cannot deny Himself and what HE wants! (That's right it's not about what you or I want.)

Faith without works is dead, however. That means that for many who claim to believe in Christ, without the works of the Spirit meaning peace, love, joy and such which has no law against it, their faith is lifeless as of now still clinging to the ways and works of the world (lust, envy, strife, division, etc.)

Example: a gay man and a straight man. Can they love each other as themselves? YES! There is no law against that. But doing the works of the flesh, the straight man will alienate the gay man causing division. The opposite of love is hate, and any man who hates another is a murderer. Both men in this case are dead in trespasses as there is no union in love.

 

[BenFTW]

The question defeats itself by a false premise. It devises a question about faith (that leads to works) and then questions can a person with such faith not produce works and yet by very definition such a faith WILL produce works. The question is circular, and leads to a forced premise that is backed by false premises.

This being the case, the answer is neither "No", or "Yes." It needs to be re-worded. As is, the question is a false dichotomy. It puts up two answers and yet requires another. The question (and point) defeats itself.

Salvation MAY lead to works, but such works do not merit salvation as it is already theirs. If works do not flow from such salvation, we do not assume they are not saved. Works are a witness of being saved, works are for you and others. However bad a witness someone might have, we do not condemn them. Look to the Corinthians who slept with temple prostitutes. How quick some in the body of Christ would say they are not believers. Yet Paul calls them saints.

I say, "Salvation MAY lead to works" because there are factors to consider why a person may not reap such works. Consider death bed confessions. What work can they do upon being a moment from death? What of a stranded man, who comes to revelation of Jesus and has no one to do good to? Lost on an island and yet Jesus visits him. Is such a man condemned because he could do no good to man? Do you not see the self-righteousness implied in this question?

Let us not forget that men will be saved "yet so as by fire." They will have no works remaining and yet they are saved. So can a man have faith and yet produce no works? Yes, and a resounding yes. We could give example after example, and hypothetical scenarios left and right. It is not to a person's advantage to not be able to produce such works, however. It is bittersweet. They are saved, and yet no rewards. If salvation was dependent upon the works we did, we would be better off isolated on an island, or being a deathbed confession, in order to secure our eternal destination. How sad would it be that God desires us to love others, and yet sets in motion a plan of redemption that sets us apart from doing so? "Love others at your own risk", would be our motto.

 

[Cee]

What if questions create scenarios that are not Biblical. The Pharisees did this to Jesus quite often.

"What if a man has 7 wives and dies, who will be with him in the resurrection?" Sound familiar?

Plenty of Scripture support faith alone. And faith alone does save. However works show a person's new identity. The problem is that this question shows unbelief in the new creation reality that is obtained the moment a person is reborn. If you think works save you, I wonder which ones these are? If you think faith and works save you, what kind of faith is that? Faith believes for something hoped for not something performed for.

C.

Those that follow the man-made teaching of FAITH ONLY have said many times a saving faith WILL produce works.



Simple question:

If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?


No simple answer:

If the faith only advocate answers "no" then he is refuting his own belief that FAITH ONLY saves.

If the faith only advocate answers "yes" then he is refuting his own statement that a saving faith WILL produce works and conflicting Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.



[It also conflicts Lk 13:3,5 that one must repent to be saved, Mt 10:32,33 and Rom 10:9,10 one must confess to be saved and Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 one must be baptized...will FAITH ONLY save one that will not repent, will not confess Christ and who is lost in his unforgiven sins anyway?]

 

[Zmouth]

Those that follow the man-made teaching of FAITH ONLY have said many times a saving faith WILL produce works.



Simple question:

If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?


No simple answer:

If the faith only advocate answers "no" then he is refuting his own belief that FAITH ONLY saves.

If the faith only advocate answers "yes" then he is refuting his own statement that a saving faith WILL produce works and conflicting Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.



[It also conflicts Lk 13:3,5 that one must repent to be saved, Mt 10:32,33 and Rom 10:9,10 one must confess to be saved and Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 one must be baptized...will FAITH ONLY save one that will not repent, will not confess Christ and who is lost in his unforgiven sins anyway?]

Two different applications:

If man has faith without it being a gift of God, since in 1 Cor 12:7-11
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Rom 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Measure of faith that God has dealt to every man is the his ability to believe, which is part of faith but not the whole measure since in addition to believing, you have to search/and make inquiry before you simply have faith in anything.
It requires us to examine all things, to test and to prove all things. 1 Thess 5:21 in re: 1 Peter 3:15"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"


Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;


KJV



Then because 2 Thess 3:22 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.


The reason salvation is not of works, because it is not by our faith we are saved, since it is the works of the One who does the saving. Who said, "Physician, heal thyself:"? Probably the same on who taught himself how to read and write...

 

[mailmandan]

You already posted "Faith that ONLY claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead does not save."

You say here faith that lacks works is DEAD.

FAITH ONLY per James is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. Says/claims to have faith but has no works (James 2:14). Genuine faith is evidenced by good works.

Now above you say Faith only saves.

Genuine faith that "trusts only in Christ for salvation" saves (saved through faith, not works); yet this genuine faith is evidenced by good works. That is not the same as faith that "only claims to be genuine" but demonstrates by the lack of good works that it's a dead faith. This may sound confusing to unbelievers, but not to believers.

A simple yes or no would cut it. Too many faith only advocates are trying to straddle the fence.

Not at all. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced by good works. That is the balance that gets out of balance. We are not saved by works and we are not saved by a dead faith that produces no works. Faith and works are like a two-coupon ticket to heaven. The coupon of works is not good for passage and the coupon of faith is not valid if void of works, which demonstrates to not be genuine faith.

It was stated in another thread "faith alone saves but faith that saves is never alone"

Faith that "trusts in Christ alone for salvation" saves but "this kind of faith is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren of works). Simple!

Pure contradiction for faith cannot be alone and not alone at the same time.

It only sounds like a contradiction to you because you don't understand that the word "alone" is in connection with two different things in that statement. Faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation is not equivalent to faith that remains "alone" barren of works.

I demonstrated where you have already said faith that lacks works is dead but then say faith alone saves. You have faith alone going from being dead to saving.

Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation saves (Ephesians 2:5-9). This kind of faith is not alone in the sense that it is barren of works (vs. 10). An empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of good works that it's dead does not trust in Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:5-8), or else it would be alive and not barren of works.

On one hand you say faith alone in Christ for salvation but then say faith alone (barren of works) is dead. A contradiction, straddling the fence. So does faith alone save or is it dead being barren of works?

Faith (rightly understood) that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION saves and this kind of faith is not alone in the sense that it is barren of works, because it's a living faith, not a dead faith. No contradiction. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced by good works. That is not hard to understand.

Faith alone means just that- faith and NOTHING else. Cannot be faith and good works for that is not faith and NOTHING else.

We are not saved through faith and good works, but through faith, ​and for good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). We are saved through faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation, yet this faith is not alone in the sense that it is barren of works.

 

[SeaBass]

Because those souls aren't lost over doctrine. They are lost over being spiritual slobs who have nothing to show for their "faith". They are in the hands of the Great Judge. They whoever they are, each knows whether he is responding to their Lord or not. I just don't see where we would want to legislate their worthlessness. They aren't going to adjust to God's call, they certainly aren't going to adjust their behavior to a man's insistence... that's just the way I see it.
When we go out and preach the gosepel, we are sowing what becomes "faith" to some people. But most just gets pecked off the hard path by the birds. Who cares about them and in what order they violated faith/works/works/faith? It sure won't matter to the Judge. Why should it matter to us?
That's all I'm saying.
No souls are lost over the "topic" except, I believe, the ones that are arguing it.

Many, many souls will be lost over doctrine. Two mutually exclusive doctrines cannot both be right at the same time. How much error can one be in and still be saved?

2 Jn 1:9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God..."

 

[SeaBass]

I really don't know why we argue about this issue all the time.

Seabass,

If you believe you get into heaven by doing good works,
then go right ahead...
work your way to heaven.

No one is stopping you.

Why all the fuss?

I bring this up for the simple question is difficult for the faith onlyist to answer, so I get a lot of avoidance and people should see that avoidance.

 

[SeaBass]

We are justified ONLY by Grace, through faith. stop adding to the Word of God. No works will ever justify us in the eyes of God! Only faith in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Romans 3:28

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.2 Through him we have also obtained access by faithinto this grace in which we stand, and werejoicein hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2

Once we are saved by a sovereign act of God, we are filled with peace. That means we WANT to serve God. It means we look for opportunities to share the gospel and to serve others and God. It means we humble our hearts and confess our sins daily.

Not works at all. But rather the effects or consequences of so great a salvation!

So now that I have definitively answered you that we are NOT saved by our works, will you kindly tell the BDF which cult you belong to?

In Rom 6:16-18 Paul put "obeying from the heart" BEFORE "being then freed from sin (justified)"

If man is justified by faith only then that means man can be saved without EVER obeying God's will or doing good works, Eph 2:10...which is not possible.

 

[SeaBass]

If Abraham would have heard what God said but not done it, would he still have been accounted as having faith?

No, for hearing what God said but NOT doing is DISobedience.

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
Mt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."


So how can one ever be saved without doing what Christ/the Father says? Faith only removes doing/working what Christ said.

Now what the faith only advocates will say is one does those works Christ said AFTER he is already saved. Yet they still have one doing works for can one NOT do those works Christ said to do AFTER he is saved and be saved anyway?

How can we separate faith from works?

Removing works from faith kills the faith, James 2:20,24

Let's say I told you that in 3 days the earth's gravity was going to reverse for about 1 minute and I told you the precise time it would happen. Let's also say I presented enough evidence that you claimed to believe me. Yet when that time came you were walking about in the streets. Did you REALLY believe me? Or did you just CLAIM to believe me?

Obviously you did not believe. If you had, then you would have acted on it.

So if we are to say that we believe but don't need to act on what we "claim" to believe, aren't we making ourselves out to be liars?

How many here would not agree that if a man wants to eat, he needs to work? So then do we just need to believe that statement, not go to work, and expect we will receive the same as those that do? Obviously if we do that, then we do not truly believe what that statement says.

Likewise if you TRULY believe what God has said, then it WILL change your behavior. So you see, faith without works is dead.

According to some, I can have "faith only" in what you said without acting/preparing for it and be saved anyway.

If Noah had faith only he would not have obeyed by preparing an ark, Heb 11:7 and be saved anyway.

 

[SeaBass]

Okay if you have faith you will have works.

Faith only says you do not have to have works to be saved.

So if one has faith but no works can his faith alone save him? According to faith only he will be saved without works so there would be no such thing as "will have works" to it.


So AFTER one is saved must he do good works to maintain his salvation per Eph 2:10

or

can he do no works at all (faith only) and be saved by that faith only that is barren of works?

 

[SeaBass]

Is it not as simple as a heart issue? If the King has your heart then your actions reflect it. Faith and works both come from the heart. Or am I missing something?

According to faith only you would NEVER have to do ANY works at all (either before or after you are saved) and still be saved.

But for some reason faith only advocates say that if you have a true faith you WILL do works.

A contradictions they have on their hands.

 

[Elin]

I bring this up for the simple question is difficult for the faith onlyist to answer, so
I get a lot of avoidance and people should see that avoidance.

Like they see your avoidance of my "yes or no" question--have you stopped beating your friend?

 

[SeaBass]

What is your game with the "yes or no answer"?

One sincerely seeking truth and understanding does not limit answers to yes or no.

Thy speech doth betray thee.

Yes or no. . .have you stopped beating your friend?

Not a game, just a simple question.

 

[SeaBass]

I assure you: The one who believes in Me will also do the works that I do.

- Jesus​

(John 14:12)

Faith only says you do not have to do any works at all.

 

[SeaBass]

The reason faith+ works is such an insidious doctrine, is because you can never do enough, never be good enough to merit salvation based on your works.

Name me one deed, one work, one effort that even comes close to Jesus sacrifice on the cross! You can't! Because there is none!

Salvation is a gift of God!

When end does one finally get to say "NOW I am finally saved?" Never! When have you done enough works? Never!

That is why I will stick to the Bible, which tells me I am justified by faith alone. Why do I believe this? Because I can never earn my salvation, because I know I am a just sinner saved by the amazing grace of God.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." John 3:16-17

The faith only advocates have said if one has a true, real faith then that faith will produce works.

Do those a works faith produces earn one's salvation?

Are those works a faith produce a essential, necessary part of one's salvation?

Can one be saved by faith only anyway if his faith does not produce works?

You see, by faith only advocates making the above statement in blue, they have unwittingly/unknowingly made works essential to salvation for they have made it impossible to have a true real saving faith without works being produced. Straddling the fence; on one hand no works to be saved but MUST produce works AFTER one is saved.