Sin, Sickness, and the Medical System

[Colours]

If I pray to God for knowledge, do you think He will grant me knowledge, or the means to knowledge?

if I pray to God that my brother or sisters 'sight' is restored, do you think He will restore it, or give me the means to rub 'the mud of the earth' in their eyes?

For answering a fool alike to their folly is better than unlike it.

And do you think, if I ask for a man to no longer be in pain, that God will grant him freedom from pain in an instant, or grant me the means to alleviate his pain for him?

 

[Ariel82]

So Are you suggesting we just pray for people that are starving, ill, maimed or in pain, when we already have methods to help all of these people ourselves?

'Love thy neighbour'.

We are called to help people. Not stand by and pray when they need something.

God gets us to do His work. He doesn't ask us to sit on our laurels and do nothing.

To me, it's a miracle that we even HAVE medicine to be able to use. Thank God for giving all those doctors the intellect to invent such things.

And let me clarify: If it wasn't for the man who took me into his ambulance and revived me as a child, I'd be dead. If it wasn't for the nurses who bandages my wounds and kept me fed and hydrated for months afterward, I'd be dead.

To me, those are the true samaritans and compassionate people of the modern world. And I owe them my life.

James 2
15If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

hey colours I agree with you and would add the above scriptures and this song

I Refuse-Josh Wilson - YouTube

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY4iILWisIg[/video]

 

[lesjude]

If I pray to God for knowledge, do you think He will grant me knowledge, or the means to knowledge?

if I pray to God that my brother or sisters 'sight' is restored, do you think He will restore it, or give me the means to rub 'the mud of the earth' in their eyes?

For answering a fool alike to their folly is better than unlike it.

And do you think, if I ask for a man to no longer be in pain, that God will grant him freedom from pain in an instant, or grant me the means to alleviate his pain for him?

Here is what the word says. What is unclear? Your issues are NOT with me.
Mark 16:17-18



New King James Version (NKJV)

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


Matthew 10:7-8

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead,[a] cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.


John 15:7-8

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[a] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
John 14:12
New King James Version (NKJV)

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

 

[lesjude]

James 2
15If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

hey colours I agree with you and would add the above scriptures and this song

I Refuse-Josh Wilson - YouTube

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY4iILWisIg[/video]

Well if healing is needed then that is what you give them. That is what Jesus did over and over to the saved and unsaved and clearly told those who believe to do the same. He has not changed.
It seems that Christians lie the most when they sing in church i.e. "You are all I need..."

 

[lesjude]

Tell me this: Does morphine dampen the central nervous system's response and alleviate pain?

Then tell me this: Who created the atoms which eventually grew into poppies, that were harvested and refined to make morphine?

...God did.

No God NEVER gave man the knowledge to do these things. Carnal fallen men do them in rebellion against God and use them to make sinners comfortable in Satan's kingdom both legally and illegally. You are on the edge of blasphemy.

So Are you suggesting we just pray for people that are starving, ill, maimed or in pain, when we already have methods to help all of these people ourselves?

'Love thy neighbour'.

We are called to help people. Not stand by and pray when they need something.

God gets us to do His work. He doesn't ask us to sit on our laurels and do nothing.

Here is what He says to do, we are able to do and may do:
John 14:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Mark 16:17-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Matthew 10:7-8

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead,[a] cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

To me, it's a miracle that we even HAVE medicine to be able to use. Thank God for giving all those doctors the intellect to invent such things.

And let me clarify: If it wasn't for the man who took me into his ambulance and revived me as a child, I'd be dead. If it wasn't for the nurses who bandages my wounds and kept me fed and hydrated for months afterward, I'd be dead.

To me, those are the true samaritans and compassionate people of the modern world. And I owe them my life.

No, you owe your life to the grace and mercy of God. You only make the point as to who gets the glory.
They are in a profession that is in REBELLION against God. They do not acknowledge that sin is the root of ALL sickness, and help keep the unbelievers comfortable in Satan's kingdom so they will not realize their problem is SIN. In the US they are the #3 cause of DEATH. If you count abortions it soars WAY out in front.

No snow flake in an avalanche feels responsible which is the only reason I can see a how a Christian could justify working in this field. Doing more good than harm to justify behavior is no where taught in the Bible and is a thought pattern which came from the fall. A renewed mind has thought patterns based on God's word.
They gives support to the lie that God gives His people the medical system in place of Divine healing. Please give scripture that God would send the bride of Christ to be stripped naked, drugged, and cut up.

 

[Colours]

Here is what the word says. What is unclear? Your issues are NOT with me.
Mark 16:17-18



New King James Version (NKJV)

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


Matthew 10:7-8

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead,[a] cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.


John 15:7-8

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[a] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
John 14:12
New King James Version (NKJV)

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Ok, so tell me, how many lepers have you healed?

The concepts of sickness, blindness, serpents, poison, hands and drinking & eating are not what you think.

The message is for the most part, this: If you believe in the true God and do his will, you will dispel things that are evil, you will have knowledge to learn and speak in manners which are not familiar to you, you will take up accusers and decievers into the light to be shown for what they are, if you take in bad teaching it will not corrupt you. God has given to you without clause, that you may be pure and IN THE WILL OF GOD and give without clause also.

Most assuredly I say to you that he who believes in I, Jesus, and the things I have accomplished for man, will also accomplish great things for man, for look: I was dead and now I go up to heaven.

Ask what you desire and it will be done for you.

Let's take a particular look at that last part:

Would I say to God 'God heal that man', when I have the power to do it myself? What would the point in that be?

The things I ask for are already known to God, in my heart (as Jesus says, so I should pray with the Lord's prayer). If I am following Gods will and trying to do as my Father asks, then everything that happens in my life, is God already giving me what I ask, or what I need.

So then it is not a case of me saying 'God, give me an xbox'. God will instead give me the means to no longer want an xbox. Because how is an xbox for me, in any way, in the will of God?

If I say to God, heal that man, God will give me the knowledge to go and heal him.

I can personally say I've never ever seen a miraculous 'heal him' and then someone is healed. But I have seen people who grew up to be doctors.

And I bet that God knew that one day, in the middle of the Hospital, in early 1991, that there'd be a yound baby about to die and I bet He made someone born with the intelligence to learn the means to save that baby's life.

I thank God for everything, contrary to what you think. And I do owe my life to those doctors and nurses. I thank them too.

 

[lesjude]

Ok, so tell me, how many lepers have you healed?

I have never had the opportunity.

The concepts of sickness, blindness, serpents, poison, hands and drinking & eating are not what you think.

The message is for the most part, this: If you believe in the true God and do his will, you will dispel things that are evil, you will have knowledge to learn and speak in manners which are not familiar to you, you will take up accusers and decievers into the light to be shown for what they are, if you take in bad teaching it will not corrupt you. God has given to you without clause, that you may be pure and IN THE WILL OF GOD and give without clause also.

You would make a"spin doctor" proud! This is just religious double speak to twist the simple clear word of God

Most assuredly I say to you that he who believes in I, Jesus, and the things I have accomplished for man, will also accomplish great things for man, for look: I was dead and now I go up to heaven.

Ask what you desire and it will be done for you.

Let's take a particular look at that last part:

Would I say to God 'God heal that man', when I have the power to do it myself? What would the point in that be?

The things I ask for are already known to God, in my heart (as Jesus says, so I should pray with the Lord's prayer). If I am following Gods will and trying to do as my Father asks, then everything that happens in my life, is God already giving me what I ask, or what I need.

So then it is not a case of me saying 'God, give me an xbox'. God will instead give me the means to no longer want an xbox. Because how is an xbox for me, in any way, in the will of God?

If I say to God, heal that man, God will give me the knowledge to go and heal him.

You are singing the same religious song and twisting God's clear word. An x box I am sure is not, but there are no RULES.
God tells those who believe exactly how to heal both believers and unbelievers. Jesus demonstrated it over and over. What is unclear to you about what he did and said to do? ALL of it apparently!

I can personally say I've never ever seen a miraculous 'heal him' and then someone is healed. But I have seen people who grew up to be doctors

Oh, mothers don't let your sons grow up to be cowboys....

And I bet that God knew that one day, in the middle of the Hospital, in early 1991, that there'd be a yound baby about to die and I bet He made someone born with the intelligence to learn the means to save that baby's life.

I thank God for everything, contrary to what you think. And I do owe my life to those doctors and nurses. I thank them too.

Again you make the point of who gets the glory and blaspheme the God who gave you grace and mercy.
I held a just delivered stillborn child in my arms and cried out to God against ALL reason. He raised her from the dead. If he will do that for me He will do it for anyone.

 

[Colours]

Again you make the point of who gets the glory and blaspheme the God who gave you grace and mercy.
I held a just delivered stillborn child in my arms and cried out to God against ALL reason. He raised her from the dead. If he will do that for me He will do it for anyone.

Just because I do not think exactly alike to you, does not mean for one inch that I do not give God the 'glory' He deserves.

Is my being alive and here today not giving glory to God? Does God need my profession from the rooftops in order for Him to say to me 'well done, kid, you shouted loud enough, come on in'?

You yourself have just delivered a child, as you have just admitted. Would you rather pray for the child to be delivered or get your hands in?

 

[lesjude]

Just because I do not think exactly alike to you, does not mean for one inch that I do not give God the 'glory' He deserves.

You clearly gave the medical deities the glory.

Is my being alive and here today not giving glory to God? Does God need my profession from the rooftops in order for Him to say to me 'well done, kid, you shouted loud enough, come on in'?

Are you doing what Jesus said to do the way He said to do it?

You yourself have just delivered a child, as you have just admitted. Would you rather pray for the child to be delivered or get your hands in?

I have no idea what you mean by "get your hands in" or pray for the child to be delivered.

 

[Matt37777]

Not in the UK they don't.

Sickness is caused by a multitude of things:

Bacteria, viruses, fungi, malnutrition, over-nutrition, cholesterol, dehydration, genetic predisposition, mutational anomalies, exposure to sunlight, environment, stress, anxiety, daily routine, habits, smoking, accidents.

You can't say 'get enough sunlight, water, food, air, vitamins and sleep and you'll be fine'.

Some things need a certain medicinal compound to go away.

Viruses generally respond to anti-viral drugs because of what they do to viruses, whatever that may be.

If I had HIV I could eat all the vitamin C in the world and it wouldn't cure it.

If I had Ebola I could sit in the sun all day and likely nothing would happen.

In America, yes, doctors are sometimes paid to promote certain brands of medicine over other brands but they aren't going to prescribe you Risperidone for a broken leg, it's all relevant to the ailment at hand.

I don't know much about health insurance in the USA and how that works but here in the UK, doctors tend to promote generic medicines that have exactly the same key ingredients as the big-bucks brands.

If it wasn't for the National Health Service I'd be dead.

I was sort of referring to preventative medicine in that part

 

[lesjude]

I was sort of referring to preventative medicine in that part

SIN is the root of ALL sickness.

 

[Ariel82]

I held a just delivered stillborn child in my arms and cried out to God against ALL reason. He raised her from the dead. If he will do that for me He will do it for anyone.

really?

within the hour of your previous post, someone came and give you a stillborn child to pray over?

who delivered the baby and what color was the child?

 

[psychomom]

He is in a profession that is in REBELLION against God. They do not acknowledge that sin is the root of ALL sickness, and helps keep the unbelievers comfortable in Satan's kingdom so they will not realize their problem is SIN. In the US they are the #3 cause of DEATH. If you count abortions it soars WAY out in front.

No snow flake in an avalanch feels responsible which is the only reason I can see a how a Christian could justify working in this field. Doing more good than harm to justify behavior is no where taught in the Bible and is a thought pattern which came from the fall. A renewed mind has thought patterns based on God's word.
He gives support to the lie that God gives His people the medical system in place of Divine healing. Please give scripture that God would send the bride of Christ to be stripped naked, drugged, and cut up.

He prescribes drugs all of which are harmful to the body in any amount and no one knows the long term effects of until it is too late.

Here is what the Bible says is the duty of an elder in case of sickness:
James 5:14-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Note it does not include drugs. If an elder cannot pray the prayer of faith and see the promised result he is not qualified to be an elder in God's NT church.

I'm just going to address that first comment, regarding my doc (the doctor doctor, since he has a PhD in computer engineering along with his MD).

I am a bit bristly that you choose to take it upon yourself to judge this man without even knowing him.
He's not perfect (I only know cuz his wife is a close friend ), but when you can say you've done as much as he has, ministering the love of God to all who are near, and to those far away...
When you use your personal income to take biannual trips overseas, and your money to buy medicine for those who would die from a simple case of worms, and then tell those people that you come in the Name of Jesus, and bring the Gospel to them, and see them saved, and follow up yourself in 6 months, and work closely with local missionaries to be sure they grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord...

When you convert your garage into an office where you see patients free of charge who otherwise would be suffering...
When you work with other local assemblies to buy medicine for them,
and be sure the lost hear the Gospel and understand why you do what you do (because the Lord cares about them)...

When you show as much love and compassion as he does, (and he would be shocked to hear himself spoken of this way...he's a humble guy who asks how he might be allowed to serve his patients when he walks into an exam room &#9829...
When you refrain from judging a sick person and just minister the Lord Jesus to them, as he does...

then we can talk.

The two of you probably have more in common than you would guess. I remember about 20 years back his wife saying that she'd been having trouble with wrist pain, and her husband suggested to her that she needed to adjust her attitude toward her parents on the basis of Proverbs 14:30.

If you spent as much time loving others as you do judging them you would do well.
See...it's not pleasant, having someone who doesn't even know you judge you like that, right?
I wasn't really trying to judge the intent of your heart, but rather to have you see.

love,
ellie

 

[psychomom]

You know, this doctor and his wife have 8 children, and every one of the ones who are adults now are working to help others.

The oldest is also a doctor, and he and his wife and little daughter are in Africa caring for the lost, and for those who have no access to medical care.

The second oldest and her new husband are in Shanghai working with missions...loving unwanted baby girls.

The third born has a masters degree in nursing and is in Central America ministering to the lost.

The fourth is an army trained pilot who flies planes for a missions organization free of charge.

I consider that quite a legacy.

 

[MidniteWelder]

Christians are to take proper care of their bodies." Bad genetics" is the result of sin entering the world. God is not the author of it, Satan is!

Is this suggesting that Satan can alter matter and therefore altered Gods creation?
Or did God alter his own creation due to us giving in to our own sin by means of satans influence which thereby is the wages of death

 

[Abiding]

I cant honestly understand why someone is here and not out healing people.

 

[Red33]

He is in a profession that is in REBELLION against God. They do not acknowledge that sin is the root of ALL sickness, and helps keep the unbelievers comfortable in Satan's kingdom so they will not realize their problem is SIN. In the US they are the #3 cause of DEATH. If you count abortions it soars WAY out in front.

No snow flake in an avalanch feels responsible which is the only reason I can see a how a Christian could justify working in this field. Doing more good than harm to justify behavior is no where taught in the Bible and is a thought pattern which came from the fall. A renewed mind has thought patterns based on God's word.
He gives support to the lie that God gives His people the medical system in place of Divine healing. Please give scripture that God would send the bride of Christ to be stripped naked, drugged, and cut up.

He prescribes drugs all of which are harmful to the body in any amount and no one knows the long term effects of until it is too late.

Here is what the Bible says is the duty of an elder in case of sickness:
James 5:14-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Note it does not include drugs. If an elder cannot pray the prayer of faith and see the promised result he is not qualified to be an elder in God's NT church.

The ones who are being referred to as being sick has to do with a couple of things going on. Sickness as the result of being chastened of the Lord and it was time for them to humble themselves and come before the elders of the church to be anointed and sickness that was not remedied and had continued with them and they were in great need. These needed also to be brought to the elders to be anointed and in both cases if any had unconfessed sin, it would be forgiven and they would be saved.

You are not being practical in your faith, not even in the least. Our Lord nor did any of the disciples discouraged people from going to see a physician for the things that ail them. It is not always successful and many times they are not made better. While it is true for some who spend much and get very little it is not something we should discourage others from pursuing and it is not a lack of wisdom. If after this pursuit they are not made better then what is impossible for physicians to remedy we can turn to God for all things are possible with Him. The woman with the issue of blood had taken this very course and was able with her faith to touch the hem of our Lord's garment and was instantly healed in (Mt 9:20-22, Mk 5:25-34). In (Mk 5:26) she suffered many things of many physicians, which simply means that her suffering was not relieved though she sought the help of many physicians and spent all and her condition grew worse both physically and mentally for her, Now her only hope of healing or to be made whole would be in touching the Lord and she did and was made whole of her plague.

She was never chided or condemned for not coming to the Lord first for her condition nor were those physicians who were unable to help her get better They were not condemned as some kind of money grabbing witch doctors with no ability to provide medical help to those in need. You have to be practical . I surely hope that if a family member needed a blood transfusion or collapsed from heart failure, that you would do the right thing and call for an ambulance and pray to God for their recovery. I think that to be good wisdom to take advantage of where this service is available and we should utilize it in this life and be thankful.

 

[lesjude]

really?

within the hour of your previous post, someone came and give you a stillborn child to pray over?

who delivered the baby and what color was the child?

She was our own, I did, and she is now 29. Dark purple with the cord wrapped around her neck, not breathing.

 

[lesjude]

The ones who are being referred to as being sick has to do with a couple of things going on. Sickness as the result of being chastened of the Lord and it was time for them to humble themselves and come before the elders of the church to be anointed and sickness that was not remedied and had continued with them and they were in great need. These needed also to be brought to the elders to be anointed and in both cases if any had unconfessed sin, it would be forgiven and they would be saved.

You are not being practical in your faith, not even in the least. Our Lord nor did any of the disciples discouraged people from going to see a physician for the things that ail them. It is not always successful and many times they are not made better. While it is true for some who spend much and get very little it is not something we should discourage others from pursuing and it is not a lack of wisdom. If after this pursuit they are not made better then what is impossible for physicians to remedy we can turn to God for all things are possible with Him. The woman with the issue of blood had taken this very course and was able with her faith to touch the hem of our Lord's garment and was instantly healed in (Mt 9:20-22, Mk 5:25-34). In (Mk 5:26) she suffered many things of many physicians, which simply means that her suffering was not relieved though she sought the help of many physicians and spent all and her condition grew worse both physically and mentally for her, Now her only hope of healing or to be made whole would be in touching the Lord and she did and was made whole of her plague.

She was never chided or condemned for not coming to the Lord first for her condition nor were those physicians who were unable to help her get better They were not condemned as some kind of money grabbing witch doctors with no ability to provide medical help to those in need. You have to be practical . I surely hope that if a family member needed a blood transfusion or collapsed from heart failure, that you would do the right thing and call for an ambulance and pray to God for their recovery. I think that to be good wisdom to take advantage of where this service is available and we should utilize it in this life and be thankful.

Doctrines of men, double mindedness and religious double speak is what you have said. No, faith has NOTHING to do with being practical. Please give scripture for Jesus sending His bride to the 3rd leading cause of death in the US to be stripped naked, drugged, and cut up by unregenerate sinners who are in rebellion against God. Of course they provide 'help' using the carnal knowledge of fallen man to keep SINNERS comfortable in Satan's Kingdom from the results of sin. Who would use them if they did not! However they also provide Satan with enjoyment from the pain and torture they inflict as well as blood sacrifice. The medical system is only rivaled by nationalism in providing the latter. I suggest renewing your mind with God's word.

 

[lesjude]

I cant honestly understand why someone is here and not out healing people.

We do at every opportunity. How about you?