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How do you explain things that, geologically, take tens of thousands of years? Stuff like the production of oil, minerals, and petrified wood? The reason there is petrified wood in Arizona is because it used to be a lush tropical rain forest, and then, I'm assuming it was probably during the flood, it was covered completely by the sea. Thousands of years of heat and pressure replacing the organic cells in the wood with different minerals created the petrified forest. It's a process that takes a REALLY REALLY long time. Or how about the layers of rock you see in cliffs? Again, it takes thousands and thousands of years for all those minerals and silt to be compressed and new layers of dirt and soils to settle on top. Anybody who uses gasoline or other petroleum based products, how long do you think it took not only for the dinosaurs to live, but to die, go extinct, and start rotting away so that we could pull their very, very useful remains out of the ground? If it only took a little while, we'd be working on ways of producing the stuff ourselves. But, it takes a REALLY REALLY long time.
I'm not trying to discredit the ages people are using, I simply want to know how those types of things fit in with a 6000-10,000 year old earth.
I'm not trying to discredit the ages people are using, I simply want to know how those types of things fit in with a 6000-10,000 year old earth.
A lot of the things are explained by catastrophic events such as Noah's flood, that's usually the position that young earthers take. It takes millions of years based on the scientific assumption that everything is happening at the same rate. They would also say that dinosaurs were on the ark with Noah, young dinosaures obviously or even eggs, to fit them all on. That man and dinosaur lived together is supported by really old rock-cave paintings and the stories which ancient peoples such as Australian aborigines and other cultures have:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i1/aborigines.asp
It is remarkable that the aborigines in Australia and other cultures thousands of miles away in different parts of the globe, all have similar stories about these mythical creatures. It is very possible that they were dinosaurs. So if dinosaurs and humans lived together, it really blows the "4.5 billion year and dinosaur extict before humans came" theory, out of the water. Where did the Chinese get their dragon worship from? Where did St George and the dragon legend come from? Lock ness monster? Could it be that dinosaurs were here not that long ago. Only recently scientists have discovered lost worlds in the thick jungles of Indonesia or Papua New Guinea which house entirely new species including species that were thought to have gone extinct. Another example is the giant squid, more or less thought to be legend until fairly recently. Science doesn't know everything.
There are also references in the bible to some sorts of large creatures that are normally translated to be elephants or rhino's but obviously don't match the description:
Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
Job 40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
Job 40:18 His bones areas strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
Could it be one of those large dinosaurs with the big tails?
Another theory which is a nice compromise between science and the bible, and retains the validity of both billion of year earth and a 7 day literal creation, is the gap theory. This theory says that between verse 1 and 2 of genesis a long period of time elapsed (billions of years). Verse 2 starts with an earth "without form and empty", as if the earth was somehow already there. The Spirit moving upon the waters, is essentially the Spirit of God heating up the earth which was a rocky mass of ice, like a comet, that needs to be melted, and gives the waters which nourish and water the new earth that God creates in the rest of Genesis. So what happened in this gap period between verse 1 and 2? The story goes, if I can remember, that on this ancient earth the animals (dinosaurs) and a pre-adamic race lived together, and that this pre-adamic race rebelled with satan against God. The fall of satan occurs somewhere between verse 1 and 2 of Genesis. So God destroyed this former world and then we come to verse 2 in Genesis where it starts detailing how God created the new earth. This theory explains why there are fossil remains dated billions of years ago in the earth and also gives a good explanation for why demons exist. They say that demons are nothing more than the souls of the dead pre-adamic race, and that is why demons are evil and on satan's side and why they prefer human bodies to inhabit. Like satan, they were sentenced by God to in inhabit the earth.
Gap theorists appeal to the language in genesis of God telling Adam and Eve to subdue the earth (as if they have to reclaim it back from a rebellious state), the fact that satan was on the earth (having been already thrown there out of heaven), and the command for Adam and Eve to replenish the earth and be fruitful and multiply - as if the earth used to be in a filled state and needed replenishing. The souls of the pre-adamic race are thought to be what we know as demons - and that is why demons seek out human bodies to inhabit as their homes. This theory is a nice compromise between science and Genesis and still allows for a 7 day literal creation. Famous Chinese evangelists such as Watchman Nee, and Witness Lee held to this view I believe, as does Benny Hinn and a few others. But it's origins are from Thomas Chalmers (1780-1847), a notable Scottish theologian and first moderator of the Free Church of Scotland. Then G.H. Pember made it popular later on.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i1/aborigines.asp
It is remarkable that the aborigines in Australia and other cultures thousands of miles away in different parts of the globe, all have similar stories about these mythical creatures. It is very possible that they were dinosaurs. So if dinosaurs and humans lived together, it really blows the "4.5 billion year and dinosaur extict before humans came" theory, out of the water. Where did the Chinese get their dragon worship from? Where did St George and the dragon legend come from? Lock ness monster? Could it be that dinosaurs were here not that long ago. Only recently scientists have discovered lost worlds in the thick jungles of Indonesia or Papua New Guinea which house entirely new species including species that were thought to have gone extinct. Another example is the giant squid, more or less thought to be legend until fairly recently. Science doesn't know everything.
There are also references in the bible to some sorts of large creatures that are normally translated to be elephants or rhino's but obviously don't match the description:
Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
Job 40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
Job 40:18 His bones areas strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
Could it be one of those large dinosaurs with the big tails?
Another theory which is a nice compromise between science and the bible, and retains the validity of both billion of year earth and a 7 day literal creation, is the gap theory. This theory says that between verse 1 and 2 of genesis a long period of time elapsed (billions of years). Verse 2 starts with an earth "without form and empty", as if the earth was somehow already there. The Spirit moving upon the waters, is essentially the Spirit of God heating up the earth which was a rocky mass of ice, like a comet, that needs to be melted, and gives the waters which nourish and water the new earth that God creates in the rest of Genesis. So what happened in this gap period between verse 1 and 2? The story goes, if I can remember, that on this ancient earth the animals (dinosaurs) and a pre-adamic race lived together, and that this pre-adamic race rebelled with satan against God. The fall of satan occurs somewhere between verse 1 and 2 of Genesis. So God destroyed this former world and then we come to verse 2 in Genesis where it starts detailing how God created the new earth. This theory explains why there are fossil remains dated billions of years ago in the earth and also gives a good explanation for why demons exist. They say that demons are nothing more than the souls of the dead pre-adamic race, and that is why demons are evil and on satan's side and why they prefer human bodies to inhabit. Like satan, they were sentenced by God to in inhabit the earth.
Gap theorists appeal to the language in genesis of God telling Adam and Eve to subdue the earth (as if they have to reclaim it back from a rebellious state), the fact that satan was on the earth (having been already thrown there out of heaven), and the command for Adam and Eve to replenish the earth and be fruitful and multiply - as if the earth used to be in a filled state and needed replenishing. The souls of the pre-adamic race are thought to be what we know as demons - and that is why demons seek out human bodies to inhabit as their homes. This theory is a nice compromise between science and Genesis and still allows for a 7 day literal creation. Famous Chinese evangelists such as Watchman Nee, and Witness Lee held to this view I believe, as does Benny Hinn and a few others. But it's origins are from Thomas Chalmers (1780-1847), a notable Scottish theologian and first moderator of the Free Church of Scotland. Then G.H. Pember made it popular later on.
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So although I did believe in the gap theory for a little while, I guess I'm an "old-young" earther when I say 50,000 to 100,000 years. That allows for science telling us that the origins of humans or certain cultures are about 100,000 years or whatever it is, and is not so large as to discredit a 7 day literal creation.
I think 4.5 billion years is absolutely rediculous and unfathomable. I also think the methods at arriving to a 6000 year conclusion are incredibly naive and lacks understanding of a) biblical genealogies and b) biblical timelines and c) numerical symbolism.
6000 years is arrived at simply by adding up the numbers of ages in the bible. Anyone with a calculator can do it. There's a few problems with this method though. For one, the bible is not a complete genealogical record (there are gaps) and secondly is not meant to be a genealogical record of the whole human race but rather focusses on the Hebrews and Israel as might be expected. Thirdly, we need to use the same timescale as the bible uses. The Hebrews had a calender system in which they divided the period of daylight into 12 parts (I think, as far as I remember). Some days would be 14 hours long, others 9 hours long, depending on how much sunlight they had. Our time scale is different. 1 year elapsing in the old testament is not the same as our 365 day years. Using the same naive methods that 6000-year theorists use in biblical interpretation, we could also easily arrive at a flat-earth and geocentric universe conclusion. Good for back in the day when they didn't know much about science - not so good for us today if we want to try and win converts. The Australian aboriginal culture alone is worked out to go back 40,000 or so years. That's why I think a 50,000 to 100,000 years or so figure is ball-park.
Any argument for 6000 years may also be made coming from a prophetic timeline perspective or by dividing the human history into nice equal parts of 6 or 7. This has merit but is also naive. Firstly, prophetic timelines are not chronoligically accurate. Secondly, whenever we see whole numbers, particularly 6's , 7's, 3's etc and multiples of , the first thing to think is symbolism! Suppose that each set of 1000 years in God's symbolic timescale of a 7000 year symbolic creation is equal to 2000 literal years in our calender. That easily comes to a 12,000 literal year age of the earth. The thing is, there is nothing in the bible to say we can infer literal chronological time-scales from biblical symbolism. These same methods which fall short in predicting the future return of the Messiah, also fall short when used in reverse to predict the age of the earth.
I think 4.5 billion years is absolutely rediculous and unfathomable. I also think the methods at arriving to a 6000 year conclusion are incredibly naive and lacks understanding of a) biblical genealogies and b) biblical timelines and c) numerical symbolism.
6000 years is arrived at simply by adding up the numbers of ages in the bible. Anyone with a calculator can do it. There's a few problems with this method though. For one, the bible is not a complete genealogical record (there are gaps) and secondly is not meant to be a genealogical record of the whole human race but rather focusses on the Hebrews and Israel as might be expected. Thirdly, we need to use the same timescale as the bible uses. The Hebrews had a calender system in which they divided the period of daylight into 12 parts (I think, as far as I remember). Some days would be 14 hours long, others 9 hours long, depending on how much sunlight they had. Our time scale is different. 1 year elapsing in the old testament is not the same as our 365 day years. Using the same naive methods that 6000-year theorists use in biblical interpretation, we could also easily arrive at a flat-earth and geocentric universe conclusion. Good for back in the day when they didn't know much about science - not so good for us today if we want to try and win converts. The Australian aboriginal culture alone is worked out to go back 40,000 or so years. That's why I think a 50,000 to 100,000 years or so figure is ball-park.
Any argument for 6000 years may also be made coming from a prophetic timeline perspective or by dividing the human history into nice equal parts of 6 or 7. This has merit but is also naive. Firstly, prophetic timelines are not chronoligically accurate. Secondly, whenever we see whole numbers, particularly 6's , 7's, 3's etc and multiples of , the first thing to think is symbolism! Suppose that each set of 1000 years in God's symbolic timescale of a 7000 year symbolic creation is equal to 2000 literal years in our calender. That easily comes to a 12,000 literal year age of the earth. The thing is, there is nothing in the bible to say we can infer literal chronological time-scales from biblical symbolism. These same methods which fall short in predicting the future return of the Messiah, also fall short when used in reverse to predict the age of the earth.
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Anyone that believe the earth is more than 6000 years does not understand the teaching in Hebrews 4 about the day of rest yet to come (the sabbath day rest) The sabbath day rest is the 1000 year period known as the Millennium, when Christ will reign, This will be on the 7th day or 7th thousand years. From creation until the start of the Millennial reign will be 6000 years, and the reign of Christ will last for 1000 years the 7th day.
I suppose that because the Bible says the sky is solid then science is wrong and the sky is solid. Why do you insist that the creation story must be taken literally?
You're stretching Paul's meaning quite a lot there, and twisting it to fit premillenial theology and your own bias towards a literal 7-day Genesis. Paul wouldn't have been referring to the 'Millenial Kingdom' because the Revelation hadn't been written yet, and there is no source in Hebrew scripture--canon or otherwise--that suggests a 1000 year reign of the Messiah.
You're stretching Paul's meaning quite a lot there, and twisting it to fit premillenial theology and your own bias towards a literal 7-day Genesis. Paul wouldn't have been referring to the 'Millenial Kingdom' because the Revelation hadn't been written yet, and there is no source in Hebrew scripture--canon or otherwise--that suggests a 1000 year reign of the Messiah.
That's a fair point, but it has some of the trappings of poetry, making it a hybrid of prose and poetry.
No, it's language does not make it untrue. I'm not saying that it's untrue. I'm saying that it's unfactual;there's a difference. It's true that God created the heavens and the Earth, and it's true that he did so in a methodical manner.
The version of the narrative we have today was written c. 500 BC; if Moses actually wrote anything on the story of creation, we don't have his original version. And if God truly dictated it, then he obviously didn't mean it to be literally true, considering the reference to the sky as a 'firmament' and outer space as being full of waters.
I'm not sure what world you're living in, dude.
The world today is terribly, horribly screwed up, but if you don't think we're a more moral species today than we were in Moses time, then you've blinded yourself to the facts. Today a third of the world follows Christ; the barbarism and paganism that used to be so common is limited now to third world countries. Rape and murder, sexism and revenge are no longer tolerated by civilized society. Racism exists, but is on the decline. Human sacrifice is by and large a thing of the past. There are still great difficulties to overcome, but by God's grace we're overcoming them.
As for Moses' pen, no matter how holy Moses was, he wasn't a scientist, he was a religious leader.
No, it's language does not make it untrue. I'm not saying that it's untrue. I'm saying that it's unfactual;there's a difference. It's true that God created the heavens and the Earth, and it's true that he did so in a methodical manner.
The version of the narrative we have today was written c. 500 BC; if Moses actually wrote anything on the story of creation, we don't have his original version. And if God truly dictated it, then he obviously didn't mean it to be literally true, considering the reference to the sky as a 'firmament' and outer space as being full of waters.
I'm not sure what world you're living in, dude.
The world today is terribly, horribly screwed up, but if you don't think we're a more moral species today than we were in Moses time, then you've blinded yourself to the facts. Today a third of the world follows Christ; the barbarism and paganism that used to be so common is limited now to third world countries. Rape and murder, sexism and revenge are no longer tolerated by civilized society. Racism exists, but is on the decline. Human sacrifice is by and large a thing of the past. There are still great difficulties to overcome, but by God's grace we're overcoming them.
As for Moses' pen, no matter how holy Moses was, he wasn't a scientist, he was a religious leader.
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The story of the prodigal son is not factual. It didn't actually happen.
The story of the prodigal son is true. The story's meaning is a real spiritual truth about God's forgiveness.
When did GOD say anything about creation? There is no evidence that God ever gave an account of Creation! You're assuming that God simply dictated the exact process of creation to the author of Genesis 1, which there is no reason to believe.
The story of the prodigal son is true. The story's meaning is a real spiritual truth about God's forgiveness.
When did GOD say anything about creation? There is no evidence that God ever gave an account of Creation! You're assuming that God simply dictated the exact process of creation to the author of Genesis 1, which there is no reason to believe.
whaaatt??
I don't believe you believe that..right?
I don't believe you believe that..right?
God bless you all!! It is truly interesting to read such comments. I am going to try to keep my comment rather short but if anyone would truly like to discuss this matter in more detail please email me. Before we ask the question "How old is the earth?" Lets ask "Do we need to know how old the earth is?" I would say for our walk and relationship with the Lord, no we do not. Remember our important faith is to us Christians. I am not going to pull out bible versus to support this for I think we can all agree on this, but I would be happy to give versus to anyone that wants them, just email me . Facts from science are interesting to know for our understanding of how things work. Science will never fully be able to prove God, for if it could or would, where does faith come in? God has hidden certain facts from us. God's plan is perfect and the more you study the bible in a spiritual way, and stop looking at the bible as a book of facts and more of a book of instruction of spirit and instruction of relationship with our loving Father that is when true knowledge comes. It is not logic or facts/words from man that moves hearts towards God, it is the Spirit of God. You can not argue God's existence to someone that God is not ready to use, but you can plant the seed by telling them the good news of Jesus, then rest is up to God. We are to love and encourage others. We Christians are of one body. We all worship the same God, we are all motivated and powered by the same Spirit. Instead of bringing out questions that could divide us lets encourage each other so we stay united. Where we disagree lets come together in prayer and seek knowledge of God, not out of pride in trying to be right...but in love so we all share the same knowledge. We are different, but one in the seance we have different roles, but of one body. We have different jobs and gifts but we should be in harmony with the body. As the heart, lungs, ears, eyes all have different roles but they work together to keep the body going in harmony.
I love you all!! Would love to talk to each one of you!! If I could I would love to have a personal relationship with each of you just as God desires it. So we could come together to spend time with our Father. You are all my brothers and sisters, and to know each one of you like such would be a blessing. I am here for you for any encouragement I can give, I have read this post yesterday and spent some hard time in prayer and with God before I responded, I do not say this to boast at all but to let you know I do not think we should take such questions lightly, instead of looking at the questions literally we should look at the spirit behind the question. Same with the bible, even though I do believe with faith that all scripture is true and inspired by God, we need to look at the spirit behind the bible, what are the motives behind it, instead of looking at it literally with logic. The scripture is holy,it is the Word of God. it is LIVING. This is why we can not understand it with out the Spirit teaching us.
This is all I am going to say in this post. If you would like to talk to me more about this please email me on here or my personal email.
[email protected]
May God bless you all!!
with Love from our Father,
Donald A. Dean
It is truly interesting to read such comments. I am going to try to keep my comment rather short but if anyone would truly like to discuss this matter in more detail please email me. Before we ask the question "How old is the earth?" Lets ask "Do we need to know how old the earth is?" I would say for our walk and relationship with the Lord, no we do not. Remember our important faith is to us Christians. I am not going to pull out bible versus to support this for I think we can all agree on this, but I would be happy to give versus to anyone that wants them, just email me . Facts from science are interesting to know for our understanding of how things work. Science will never fully be able to prove God, for if it could or would, where does faith come in? God has hidden certain facts from us. God's plan is perfect and the more you study the bible in a spiritual way, and stop looking at the bible as a book of facts and more of a book of instruction of spirit and instruction of relationship with our loving Father that is when true knowledge comes. It is not logic or facts/words from man that moves hearts towards God, it is the Spirit of God. You can not argue God's existence to someone that God is not ready to use, but you can plant the seed by telling them the good news of Jesus, then rest is up to God. We are to love and encourage others. We Christians are of one body. We all worship the same God, we are all motivated and powered by the same Spirit. Instead of bringing out questions that could divide us lets encourage each other so we stay united. Where we disagree lets come together in prayer and seek knowledge of God, not out of pride in trying to be right...but in love so we all share the same knowledge. We are different, but one in the seance we have different roles, but of one body. We have different jobs and gifts but we should be in harmony with the body. As the heart, lungs, ears, eyes all have different roles but they work together to keep the body going in harmony. I love you all!! Would love to talk to each one of you!! If I could I would love to have a personal relationship with each of you just as God desires it. So we could come together to spend time with our Father. You are all my brothers and sisters, and to know each one of you like such would be a blessing. I am here for you for any encouragement I can give, I have read this post yesterday and spent some hard time in prayer and with God before I responded, I do not say this to boast at all but to let you know I do not think we should take such questions lightly, instead of looking at the questions literally we should look at the spirit behind the question. Same with the bible, even though I do believe with faith that all scripture is true and inspired by God, we need to look at the spirit behind the bible, what are the motives behind it, instead of looking at it literally with logic. The scripture is holy,it is the Word of God. it is LIVING. This is why we can not understand it with out the Spirit teaching us.
This is all I am going to say in this post. If you would like to talk to me more about this please email me on here or my personal email.
[email protected]
May God bless you all!!
with Love from our Father,
Donald A. Dean
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