Some questions about atonement and salvation

[FabianO]

Hi there,
I have some questions about christianity, particularly about what the christian concepts of atonement and salvation exactly mean. I have met an evangelical christian for the first time in my life a few weeks ago, and we had a very long chat where she tried to explain her faith to me - but I didn´t really understand it despite her best efforts, so I started to read the Bible and google some stuff, but I´m still totally confused (I grew up in a country with a very high density of Atheists and Agnostics, and until recently, the only thing I actually knew about christianity is the nativity story). That´s why I guess my questions will sound very newbie-ish to you, sorry for that in advance!
So, here goes:

1. I understand that christians believe that we need Jesus because we are seperated from God by sinful acts we committed. Now, my first question would be - why didn´t God just create humans that would not sin? And the answer I got was, that God did not want to create "robots", but rather people with free will. But, as I understand it, christians believe that they will have free will in heaven, but will only use their free will to "please God" and that heaven will thus be free of sin. So now my question would be - why didn´t God just create such a heaven in the first place where free will + no sin co-exist, since that seems to be what he wants and I thus see no reason for why he created the universe in the first place instead of just starting with heaven (I´ve also heard the answer that Satan corrupted his creation, but this doesn´t work for me for the same reason - why not create angels that would only use their free will as God wants them to, meaning that there never would have been any fallen angels in the first place?).

2. I understand that evangelical christians believe that all humans deserve punishment in hell for their sins (the non-evangelical christians I have met so far however don´t seem to believe that). I don´t understand how that can be fair / just. Afaict, evangelicals believe that it is impossible for humans to commit no sins whatsoever (Romans 3:23), so even the best of us will have committed some sins. But doesn´t that mean that the punishment in hell is not actually for what we did, but rather for what we are? It doesn´t seem fair to me to punish a human being for being human. I have heard the answer that it is not strictly impossible to live a life free of sin because Jesus was human and lived a sin-free life. But I don´t see the logic in that, that sounds like saying that humans could raise people from the dead and walk on water because Jesus was human and he could do it. So, where is the fairness / justice in this concept?

3. How can an eternal punishment be reconciled with God being just in any case? We wouldn´t call a human judge who sentences everyone, from a thief who stole some bread to feed his starving family to a serial rapist/murderer to "death by torture" a "just" judge - we would call him cruel and arbitrary. So why is this different with God?

4. I don´t understand how christian beliefs can be reconciled with personal accountability. We believe that we are personally responsible for our actions, but in christianity, Jesus took this responsibility away and got punished in our stead. How can one simultaneously believe in personal accountability and christianity? (also, why didn´t Jesus have to suffer for eternity in hell if that is the appropriate punishment for sin?).

5. Independent of whether one believes that libertarian free will exists or not, it seems obvious to me that beliefs cannot be chosen. I can see how my beliefs could change by seeing new evidence, hearing new arguments and so on and so forth. But I can´t simply choose to *genuinely* believe something out of the blue. I don´t claim to have studied all the arguments for christianity in detail (I most certainly did not), but so far, I don´t find the evidence for christianity to be convincing. I can´t simply choose to be convinced by something out of the blue. So if christianity is true and I would die tomorrow, wouldn´t I be sent to hell for something I could not have chosen any other way?

Thanks for your time!
cheerio,
Fabian

 

[p_rehbein]

Fabian: You have asked many questions here, and to properly respond to each of them in one post would in my opinion be near impossible given that we are limited to a 2,000 character post length. Just saying.

Maybe people will choose one question, and address it, and then the others in different posts. Anyway, glad you are here, and glad that you are seeking answers/understanding.

(advanced warning, it's very possible that you are going to receive varied and conflicting opinions/answers, so just be ready for that, and maybe you should begin to read the Bible for yourself)

 

[LT]

The answer to question 1:
God is Creator. That means He is creative. When an artist paints a picture, do they only use bright colors? No. The contrast of dark colors with the light are what create a beautiful image. God has a plan, even though we don't always see the good in it. God can see the big picture, and He has already told us that it is "very good".
Think about children that are raised spoiled. They get everything they want, and life is perfect... But they are always discontent, angry, and self-destructive. When someone experiences hard times, they learn to appreciate the good.

God did not need to do anything. He chose to create the world, and chose to make it in this way.
God doesn't need us. But He is our creator, so we need Him.

 

[p_rehbein]

The answer to question 1:
God is Creator. That means He is creative. When an artist paints a picture, do they only use bright colors? No. The contrast of dark colors with the light are what create a beautiful image. God has a plan, even though we don't always see the good in it. God can see the big picture, and He has already told us that it is "very good".
Think about children that are raised spoiled. They get everything they want, and life is perfect... But they are always discontent, angry, and self-destructive. When someone experiences hard times, they learn to appreciate the good.

God did not need to do anything. He chose to create the world, and chose to make it in this way.
God doesn't need us. But He is our creator, so we need Him.

Brother, you might want to take the time to review the entire list of questions, and break them down into their simplest form, and then review them again......a light might come on, or not. Just saying.

 

[FabianO]

Fabian: You have asked many questions here, and to properly respond to each of them in one post would in my opinion be near impossible given that we are limited to a 2,000 character post length. Just saying.

Maybe people will choose one question, and address it, and then the others in different posts. Anyway, glad you are here, and glad that you are seeking answers/understanding.

(advanced warning, it's very possible that you are going to receive varied and conflicting opinions/answers, so just be ready for that, and maybe you should begin to read the Bible for yourself)

Thanks! I haven´t read most of the OT but I have read the NT. I was thinking about getting an annotated Bible with footnotes (many parts seem very cryptic to me without further explanations). Do you have any recommendations? (I checked what´s available on Amazon and the "New Oxford Annotated Bible" looks like a good choice to me - what do you think?)

 

[notuptome]

God did not create man to be sinful. God created man to be like Him.

Men sin because they choose to do so.

Men are responsible because they have the knowledge of good and evil.

John 3:19-22 explains why men choose to reject Christ.

God as God has the soverign right to do with His creation whatever pleases Him. For us He is merciful and loving. For those who will not hear He is a fearsome avenger.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[p_rehbein]

Thanks! I haven´t read most of the OT but I have read the NT. I was thinking about getting an annotated Bible with footnotes (many parts seem very cryptic to me without further explanations). Do you have any recommendations? (I checked what´s available on Amazon and the "New Oxford Annotated Bible" looks like a good choice to me - what do you think?)

Just my personal choice, but I don't recommend to people a particular translation of the Bible. Me personally, I use the KJV (it has reference scriptures posted in the margins for clarity/understanding/comparison), and the CJB. That's the Complete Jewish Bible. You can Google it and then add it to your list of "favorites" so that you can access it quickly any time you please. Same with the KJV. Both are on my "favorites" list. Now, I suppose all the other variations/translations are the same, don't know for sure though.

 

[Hizikyah]

Verses concerning each ? at bottom.

1. This entire existance is a test, so free will and the possibility of sin is a must for it to be a proper test. In multiple choice there needs to be a few wrong answers and one right answer. And yes our Heavenly Father has offered us GREAT mercy through the Sacrifice of the Messiah, and strength and guidance to overcome also. So all the "tools" for us to escapse sin and death are provided!

2. First most peoples understanding of hell is wrong, hell is simply the grave. People that are judged unworthy will simply be burnt up in an instant and will never exist again. They will be ashes period. Our Heavenly Father is merciful even in punishment. And for sin we commit, we have the blood of the Messiah and for future sinning, IF we confess our sins to our Father in heaven He is merciful and will forgive us. But we must be sincere.

3. Again there is no eternal punishment, its eternal death. Those will be dead for ever and never exist again.

4. People are accountable for their actions, that no accountability is a lie to get people to keep going to that church and give donations.

5. I understand you stance, one major thing is we dont want the "christianity of the world" but we want the truth in the scriptures. What I mean is men get ahold of every religion and twist it to their gain. This is false religion. Real religion is love and a true connection with the Creator of all the is.

scripture:

1. Romans 2:4-11, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.”

Hebrews 10:26-30
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people."

2. 1 Yahchanan 3:7, "7 Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Acts 17:30-31, “In the past Yahweh winked at such ignorance, but now He commands all men everywhere to repent! For He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness, by a Man whom He has ordained; and He has given evidence to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”

Revelation 22:12, “And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be.”

Yaaqob (James) 2:26, “For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also.”

3. Revelation 20:12-15, "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before Yahweh. And the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is The Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and Death and Sheol; the grave, delivered up the dead which were in them. And they were judged, every man, according to their works. And Death and Sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whoever was not found written in The Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Malakyah 4:1-3, "For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts."

4. 2 Timothy 4:3-4, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts they will heap to themselves teachers, who will tickle their ears, and they will turn away their ears from the truth, and be turned to fables.”

5. Daniyl 10:11, "Then he said to me; Fear not, Daniyl, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to chasten and humble yourself before your Father, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words."

We dont understand how He works, but He does work my brother.

 

[FabianO]

God did not create man to be sinful. God created man to be like Him.

Men sin because they choose to do so.

Yes, I understand that. But, afaict, you believe that people in heaven will have free will, but not use this free will to sin. So if that is true, free will + no sin must be able to coexist. So why did God not create angels + humans like that meaning that there would have never been a Satan and there would not have been a fall?

John 3:19-22 explains why men choose to reject Christ.

I´ve just read John 3:19-22 again and I don´t see how it applies here, could you elaborate? Also, if you look at my original questions - I don´t see how this is a "choice", because the main issue doesn´t seem to be what you choose to do, but rather whether you are convinced that christianity is actually true, and being convinced by the truth of a claim is not a choice.

 

[FabianO]

Hi Hizikyah,

1. This entire existance is a test, so free will and the possibility of sin is a must for it to be a proper test. In multiple choice there needs to be a few wrong answers and one right answer. And yes our Heavenly Father has offered us GREAT mercy through the Sacrifice of the Messiah, and strength and guidance to overcome also. So all the "tools" for us to escapse sin and death are provided!

So what exactly is "tested"? If the test is whether humans will be able to live without committing ANY sin, doesn´t the Bible say that this "test" is impossible to pass? (Romans 3:23) And if the test is impossible to pass, how can a punishment for failing the test be fair?

3. Again there is no eternal punishment, its eternal death. Those will be dead for ever and never exist again.

Ah ok, that would of course make my question irrelevant

4. People are accountable for their actions, that no accountability is a lie to get people to keep going to that church and give donations.

I think you misunderstood my question. I was wondering how the belief that Jesus was punished for *our* sins is compatible with personal accountability?

5. I understand you stance, one major thing is we dont want the "christianity of the world" but we want the truth in the scriptures. What I mean is men get ahold of every religion and twist it to their gain. This is false religion. Real religion is love and a true connection with the Creator of all the is.

Ok. But what do you do if you do not believe that there is a Creator? As I mentioned in my original question, whether you are convinced by a claim or not doesn´t seem to be a choice to me.

 

[Hizikyah]

Hi Hizikyah,

So what exactly is "tested"? If the test is whether humans will be able to live without committing ANY sin, doesn´t the Bible say that this "test" is impossible to pass? (Romans 3:23) And if the test is impossible to pass, how can a punishment for failing the test be fair?

Ok, so accepting the Messiah gives us a clean slate, all we have done in the past is forgotten as if it nevr happened, but once we have recieved that, now we muct turn in obedience and can no longer live a sin filled life. There is no "once saved always saved" and also once we turn to Messiah, there wil still be slip ups and problems during our journey.

Romans 3:25, "Whom Yahweh set forth as a sacrifice of atonement by His own blood, through the faith, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of Yahweh."

Hebrews 6:3-6, "If indeed Yahweh permits, we will now proceed to advanced teaching. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, And the righteous, having come to know that which is spoken by Yahweh through the Law and the Prophets, the power of Yahweh, and the world to come, If they shall fall away, it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance again. They have rejected the Son of Yahweh, and therefore are alienated from Yahweh."

The test, (this world) is basically if we will choose to follow what our father tells us, test our hearts, intents and actions...

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”

I think you misunderstood my question. I was wondering how the belief that Jesus was punished for *our* sins is compatible with personal accountability?

Well the sacrificial Laws were ALWAYS intended for the Messiah, for sin death is the deserved penalty, however Yahweh is merciful and has created a way for us to be forgiven. The responsible man turns away from evil once he has accepted the blood of Messiah, the non-responsible man keeps on with the evil after accepting... In a kind of metaphor way = If I borrow your car and break it, and you forgive me for no other reason than you love me, it is still a responsible thing for me to get your car fixed. Also a little more direct, I feel guilty for what that man went through...Acts 17:30-31, “In the past Yahweh winked at such ignorance, but now He commands all men everywhere to repent! For He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness, by a Man whom He has ordained; and He has given evidence to everyone by raising Him from the dead.” I guess to be blunt, the real accountability starts after we accept. As most of the world does what they choose with no real care anyway, as I used to do that for years...

Ok. But what do you do if you do not believe that there is a Creator? As I mentioned in my original question, whether you are convinced by a claim or not doesn´t seem to be a choice to me.

Personally I had things happen my whole life but denied them as coincedience, but it came to a point where I knew it was real. There is soo much deception and lies in this world it is overwhelming at times. But none the less there is truth for those who sek it and there is much proof of a Creator, thing is that all the Universities, media corpeations, schools, etc are mostly contriolled by people who DO NOT WANT the world to know these things, and it is even more evident by the fact that many of the LITERLALLY worshipp satan...

here is proof the Biblical stories, and problally one of the most amazing ones is true:

The Exodus Revealed: Searching for the Red Sea Crossing - YouTube

here is proof many "world leaders" worship satan: (it diesnt matter if anyone else believes satan is real these people do, and have recieved worldy power from their evil, they do something called "the cremation of care ritual" it clears their consciouss for their murder of millions, seen here)

Mattithyah 4:8-9, "Again, the devil took Him up into an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and the magnificence of them, And said to Him; I will give You all these things, if You will fall down and worship me."

Order Of Death Final - Alex Jones - YouTube

 

[tdrew777]

Good questions. I will begin to answer, and continue later if the exercise seems profitable.
First, note that your questions are not confined to theology, but also delve into philosophy. The bible never proves the existence of God - it assumes his existence. Therefore, arguments to prove the existence of God are not theological proofs, they are philosophical proofs. You are into philosophy when you ask why God created some people who would not be saved. The bible says that he does it without saying why. This leaves that question opened to philosophical speculation - and I'll get around to sharing my two cents, if you remember that what the bible says is one thing - infallible - and my two cents are quite something else..
Theology: We are born with bad character. By prolonging the life of Adam after the fall enough to allow offspring, God allowed that his offspring would be born with bad character, not of their own choosing. Natural man has free choice only in that he can choose how he manifests rebellion to God. Natural wants to live apart from God (as Adam did he rejected God's counsel to try to obtain what he saw as a good thing - knowledge of good and evil. He was not trying to do what was evil in his own sight - kill his wife, or abuse the animals or plants). He wants to be good, but does not want "God" telling him what good is. God loves man - in spite of all this. God had planned, from the foundation of the world, to provide an atonement for sin. Not for sins (just my part, or just your part), but for sin - the whole tangled mess from day one to the end of history.

My Philosophy: One sin has a role in causing the next sin. Dad's abuse causes (does not determine, but is a causative factor) the son's drunkenness. God forgave the whole mess without untangling it into "your part" and "my part"

Theology: The atonement is sufficient for all. We dare not fail to forgive another - otherwise the whole mess of our own sin is put back on the table. Those who exercise the gift of faith to trust in the atonement receive a new, regenerated character. The true Christian suffers an internal war where the old fleshly desires go contrary to the will of God at every point. He has to choose between his old nature that can not please God and his new nature that can not sin, moment by moment. He cannot choose "once for all". Notice that when exercising the old nature AND when exercising the new nature, man exercises free will choice, in the sense that there is no outward compulsion - all the options are on the table. God causes his sun to rise on the good and the evil and sends his rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

By the blood of Jesus, the Holy Spirit offers man, in rebellion, a new character. If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature. The old has passed away and all things are made new. Men may refuse that offer - they are free to try to reform their own character apart from the counsel of God. Sin has been forgiven, yet some still arrive at the judgement seat with a corrupt character. God will judge those who "arrive at the wedding feast but don't have wedding clothes" - those who are invited to the kingdom of heaven, but come with a corrupt character. They will shake their fists at God from hell and say, "I WAS BORN THIS WAY (correct), so THIS IS ALL GOD's FAULT (incorrect).

Those who have lived with a new, regenerated character will find that character dominant. The entire old character will pass away, but they themselves will survive. There are some, whose works were mostly done through their old nature, who will survive but as though through fire. Others, who did works through the regenerated nature while on earth, will find that their works have eternal reward.

History is not focused on man. Those who pursue happiness will not obtain it. Those who are engulfed in the glory of God will find happiness. History is focused on God. Each man does NOT come into the world with a neutral slate (as man-centered justice would demand). It is the glory of God in the center of history, not the decisions of man.

2-cent Philosophy: Why did God set things up this way? He wanted to show love. Show it to man and show it off to the angels. Love HAS TO BE VIOLATED in order to be shown to be true love. Even evil people love those who love them. God so loved the world. He went beyond forgiving sins to forgiving sin - the entire mess. Yet, He will be, in the end, rejected by many. And he did not force a regenerated character on anyone.

If you love your birth character, you will keep trying to polish it up, to show what a great man you really are. But the pressures of life will show the warts - not just on the surface, but at the core. May the Holy Spirit, then, convict you of sin. Not just of your "sins" but of sin itself. So much of what passes for "noble desires" is rebellion against fellowship with our loving God, who would direct us right if we would let him. Man is determined to find "good" - without Him.

Those who flew the planes into the twin towers believed they were doing an incredibly noble, good work.

 

[p_rehbein]

FabianO said:

Ok. But what do you do if you do not believe that there is a Creator? As I mentioned in my original question, whether you are convinced by a claim or not doesn´t seem to be a choice to me.

Well, my first advice would be: Prepare for a long, long, long and unhappy eternity.

 

[notuptome]

Yes, I understand that. But, afaict, you believe that people in heaven will have free will, but not use this free will to sin. So if that is true, free will + no sin must be able to coexist. So why did God not create angels + humans like that meaning that there would have never been a Satan and there would not have been a fall?

God's motivation is love. No free will means no way to love. It is not about free will as much as it is about a new nature. We are given a new nature so we act according to that new nature. A tree produces fruit according to its nature. The tree does not desire to do anything against its nature. A good tree brings forth good fruit and it does not struggle to do so. An evil tree cannot produce good fruit because of its evil nature.

I´ve just read John 3:19-22 again and I don´t see how it applies here, could you elaborate? Also, if you look at my original questions - I don´t see how this is a "choice", because the main issue doesn´t seem to be what you choose to do, but rather whether you are convinced that christianity is actually true, and being convinced by the truth of a claim is not a choice.

God offers to all men the Light to lead them out of the darkness of sin. Many men will not come to the Light because they love evil more than the Light. Those who come to the Light are given the ability to love the Light even more. Mankind was given by God through the forbidden fruit the knowledge of good and evil. Man is now responsible to use this knowledge to choose which path he will travel. Every man knows the difference between good and evil it is inherit in his nature and he must act accordingly. God is not willing that any should perish but calls all men to be saved. Alas many will not.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[John_S]

Hi there,
I have some questions about christianity, particularly about what the christian concepts of atonement and salvation exactly mean. I have met an evangelical christian for the first time in my life a few weeks ago, and we had a very long chat where she tried to explain her faith to me - but I didn´t really understand it despite her best efforts, so I started to read the Bible and google some stuff, but I´m still totally confused (I grew up in a country with a very high density of Atheists and Agnostics, and until recently, the only thing I actually knew about christianity is the nativity story). That´s why I guess my questions will sound very newbie-ish to you, sorry for that in advance!
So, here goes:

1. I understand that christians believe that we need Jesus because we are seperated from God by sinful acts we committed. Now, my first question would be - why didn´t God just create humans that would not sin? And the answer I got was, that God did not want to create "robots", but rather people with free will. But, as I understand it, christians believe that they will have free will in heaven, but will only use their free will to "please God" and that heaven will thus be free of sin. So now my question would be - why didn´t God just create such a heaven in the first place where free will + no sin co-exist, since that seems to be what he wants and I thus see no reason for why he created the universe in the first place instead of just starting with heaven (I´ve also heard the answer that Satan corrupted his creation, but this doesn´t work for me for the same reason - why not create angels that would only use their free will as God wants them to, meaning that there never would have been any fallen angels in the first place?).

2. I understand that evangelical christians believe that all humans deserve punishment in hell for their sins (the non-evangelical christians I have met so far however don´t seem to believe that). I don´t understand how that can be fair / just. Afaict, evangelicals believe that it is impossible for humans to commit no sins whatsoever (Romans 3:23), so even the best of us will have committed some sins. But doesn´t that mean that the punishment in hell is not actually for what we did, but rather for what we are? It doesn´t seem fair to me to punish a human being for being human. I have heard the answer that it is not strictly impossible to live a life free of sin because Jesus was human and lived a sin-free life. But I don´t see the logic in that, that sounds like saying that humans could raise people from the dead and walk on water because Jesus was human and he could do it. So, where is the fairness / justice in this concept?

3. How can an eternal punishment be reconciled with God being just in any case? We wouldn´t call a human judge who sentences everyone, from a thief who stole some bread to feed his starving family to a serial rapist/murderer to "death by torture" a "just" judge - we would call him cruel and arbitrary. So why is this different with God?

4. I don´t understand how christian beliefs can be reconciled with personal accountability. We believe that we are personally responsible for our actions, but in christianity, Jesus took this responsibility away and got punished in our stead. How can one simultaneously believe in personal accountability and christianity? (also, why didn´t Jesus have to suffer for eternity in hell if that is the appropriate punishment for sin?).

5. Independent of whether one believes that libertarian free will exists or not, it seems obvious to me that beliefs cannot be chosen. I can see how my beliefs could change by seeing new evidence, hearing new arguments and so on and so forth. But I can´t simply choose to *genuinely* believe something out of the blue. I don´t claim to have studied all the arguments for christianity in detail (I most certainly did not), but so far, I don´t find the evidence for christianity to be convincing. I can´t simply choose to be convinced by something out of the blue. So if christianity is true and I would die tomorrow, wouldn´t I be sent to hell for something I could not have chosen any other way?

Thanks for your time!
cheerio,
Fabian

1. I am NOT an Evangelical Christian. I find that group of people to be bad excuses for Christianity. To be honest, I find these "Holier than Thou" people to be rather disgusting people.
2, If you die tomorrow, God will determine whether you go to Heaven or not just as He does for EVERY human being, Christian or not.
3. I'm Sorry - but I don't believe that you are sincerely interested in learning about Jesus Christ.

 

[homwardbound]

1. I understand that christians believe that we need Jesus because we are seperated from God by sinful acts we committed. Now, my first question would be - why didn´t God just create humans that would not sin? And the answer I got was, that God did not want to create "robots", but rather people with free will. But, as I understand it, christians believe that they will have free will in heaven, but will only use their free will to "please God" and that heaven will thus be free of sin. So now my question would be - why didn´t God just create such a heaven in the first place where free will + no sin co-exist, since that seems to be what he wants and I thus see no reason for why he created the universe in the first place instead of just starting with heaven (I´ve also heard the answer that Satan corrupted his creation, but this doesn´t work for me for the same reason - why not create angels that would only use their free will as God wants them to, meaning that there never would have been any fallen angels in the first place?).

FabianO, if you were such a creator of life, first in Heaven, and you created an array of Spirit beings, and you were happy with this creation, your light shone through them, each and everyone of them. there was fellowship going on between all of your creation, you would be pleased would you not?
Now, your creation that you have now made, asks you ? after ?, and you make your creation aware to the truth, of how you made them and why you made them such. Would that be excellent? And so this is how it was.
But now an Angel, known as Lucifer was a bright and shinning Angel, and as this Angel got more and more knowledge about the creator, used this to be God himself to the other 1/3 of the angels.
They would ask ?'s and if Lucifer did not know the Answer, Lucifer would make excuses for time to answer. Lucifer would go to God for the answer and get the answer, and take that to the Angels that asked him the ? that he now knew the answer to, and act as he was the way, the truth and that he is the one that gave them light. Pride set in this Angel, the bright and morning star, that shone so brightly through him, was God's light and only God's no one else's.

Now when god who knows all things and saw what Lucifer was doing, God created man, and God's light was now shinning on man, and was well pleased with his creation.
So what do you think happened? Did God's light now shine where? Yes on man, and so Lucifer's light that had been shinning through him is not near as bright as it had been, or was it?

So Lucifer came to earth, to get Adam and Eve to eat from that tree that God told them not to eat from, because if they did, they would surely die.
Now Lucifer convinced to get them to eat from that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, using the serpent to do so, was convinced that they would die, and then according to Lucifer's thought, with them dead the light that was shinning through him would return. but this is not what happened.

Now what would you rather have, worshipping you? By free choice or by force?


God had Mercy and clothed them, put them out of Heaven, the garden of Eden, to till the ground on their own, to learn what being born of the flesh is and the corruption in selfishness that this brought.

One other thing to note here, is that Adam and Eve before the eating of the tree of flesh, evil awareness, did not know they were naked, before they ate. And Neither were they aware of being alive in God's Spirit as yet.
For God breathed into Adam and Adam became a living Soul, not yet alive in the Spirit and or flesh.
A living soul, having a dead Spirit, and a dead flesh, both flesh and Spirit there, just neither as of yet alive.

Now if you read the story of Genesis about the creating of man, you will notice that God after man being made alive in flesh, God guarded the Garden from man getting back in and eating from the tree of life at that time, For man now being Evil of flesh, still; with a dead Spirit, that is not alive, if he ate from the tree of life, evil could not then be stopped.
So through Christ the tree of life, became flesh and reconciled man's fallen state to Father God the creator of all, and condemned all sin to flesh by and through his death to flesh. Then Christ risen, justified in the Spirit for us to eat from Christ the tree of life, right here and now, to be made alive in the Spirit of God through the reconciliation of Christ's death at the cross, first this to be considered our death to self, (co-crucified) with Christ, presented through this to Father and cleansed, forgiven, thus then to be made alive, Father giving us new life at the resurrected Christ.

 

[homwardbound]

2. I understand that evangelical christians believe that all humans deserve punishment in hell for their sins (the non-evangelical christians I have met so far however don´t seem to believe that). I don´t understand how that can be fair / just. Afaict, evangelicals believe that it is impossible for humans to commit no sins whatsoever (Romans 3:23), so even the best of us will have committed some sins. But doesn´t that mean that the punishment in hell is not actually for what we did, but rather for what we are? It doesn´t seem fair to me to punish a human being for being human. I have heard the answer that it is not strictly impossible to live a life free of sin because Jesus was human and lived a sin-free life. But I don´t see the logic in that, that sounds like saying that humans could raise people from the dead and walk on water because Jesus was human and he could do it. So, where is the fairness / justice in this concept?

[h=3]Romans 3:23[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


[SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Who are we all born after? Does not nature prove that a seed, an apple seed as ex: Can an apple seed bring forth anything other than an apple? An orange tree seed anything other than an orange?
So Adam and Eve being born of flesh, can they produce anything other than flesh?
Now to stay on course here, after Adam and Eve and we follow the lineage to Noah and Noah's Sons, the world was flooded and all but Noah, Son's and wife's along with the animals that boarded the Ark, all else was flooded that walked on earth, and thus dead.
So all are after the similitude after Adam and Eve, no ? here as long as one believes what the word says.

Now after Christ came to earth as a life giving Spirit born of a virgin, known as Mary, and John the Baptist being the eye witness to this fact, The cross is the dividing line of world history, where we have a before the cross and after the cross. The life-giving Spirit of Christ was never given to live in anyone until the day of Pentecost. Which those Apostles had to wait for. Why, because it is not man that can give life, it is God and God only and God did on that day and has been doing this ever since.
No one can see the kingdom of God without being born again, and this new life in God is given to the believer by God, a free gift if one chooses to believe God and all God's fairness to all to have the chance to believe or not
Christ after his death, went and preached to all the Spirits that were held in prison, prior to his life here on earth, through death via the cross, they heard and these Spirits either believed or they did not, were freed from captivity or left in captivity.
This is where all have free choice to choose God the creator of all through son or not. Either way man will not have an excuse, for all man will have made a conscious choice to whether they believe or not.
Christ, his finished work at the cross, left the apostles with the message of reconciliation, that we are forgiven from God by God through the cross of Son.
This was and is God's way of saying to you and all, that God knows that it is not our fault the way we are born after the similitude of Adam and Eve.
This is what Christ said during his time here on earth that Father is Merciful, but man was and is to this day more focused on sacrifice than Mercy, not understanding what I just said to you about this amazing Mercy of God to you and all that will come to believe God in God's amazing Mercy
Maybe it is time to respond to God in thanksgiving and praises as King David saw written in Psalms 100:4, being so busy in thanking God for this amazing Mercy, that one does not even focus on sin and just loves all as what through Christ is what is called to do

So God sending his own Son in the likeness of flesh, being the only one that could ever please God in the flesh, now is justified in the Spirit that gives us new life in the Spirit where we are considered and we reckon we are dead to old flesh, being controlled now by the Spirit of God, through our asking God to do this, knowing that our old self never could, but God can
There is today only one way God can be worshipped
John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So what do you now think is God Merciful or a tyrant? Does God love you or not?
So are we to respond to this Mercy in thankfulness?
Or are we just to keep on creating as if we are God, as is what flesh does, that we are first born with, that the devil created by deception to Adam and Eve.
The Devil has been Judged and defeated by Christ at the resurrection. now waiting for your belief in what Christ has done, and thus your self flesh to be defeated as well, but this takes your choice to believe God or not and thank God for his amazing Mercy, asking God for this new life that his Son came to give in the Spirit, where is the only place Father can be worshipped


Thanks

 

[homwardbound]

3. How can an eternal punishment be reconciled with God being just in any case? We wouldn´t call a human judge who sentences everyone, from a thief who stole some bread to feed his starving family to a serial rapist/murderer to "death by torture" a "just" judge - we would call him cruel and arbitrary. So why is this different with God?

It is not different with God. The purpose of God through Son is to bring new life to you in the Spirit of god a free gift to you from God through Son our redeemer.
It is entirely up to us to believe or not to believe.
A tree is always identified by it's fruit period.
So ask yourself what are you born of?
What is the only way God the Father can be worshipped?
What did Christ's death on the cross do?
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

So if you believe Christ to have done this, then father sees you as Holy and gives you new life in the Spirit. All by believing God in God's amazing Mercy. Tell me seeing this truth as truth, who would willfully sin?
and if one does sin, Can God or is God capable to keep us from sinning
Hebrews 8:11 says God will be our teacher, not man.

Those that do believe God in what Son has done, God teaches us how to trust God to keep us from not loving, to loving all the time and not be a doormat at the same time, for those that take this amazing Mercy for granted, and or those that throw legalism on others, as to be perfect, when they themselves can't

 

[homwardbound]

4. I don´t understand how christian beliefs can be reconciled with personal accountability. We believe that we are personally responsible for our actions, but in christianity, Jesus took this responsibility away and got punished in our stead. How can one simultaneously believe in personal accountability and christianity? (also, why didn´t Jesus have to suffer for eternity in hell if that is the appropriate punishment for sin?).

We are the creation, not the creators, as is what flesh and blood strive to do and has done for years, creating this and that. Ex: Air Conditioning, is a copy of the Body in how it operates naturally. The same with all of Man's supposed creations, all are nothing more than a copy of God's creation, used in material form, as a means to be comfortable, at ease, and so forth.
Remote controls all use the energy of this earth.
And all of us that are created, are plain and simply the creation, just go out into the woods and get a clue.

Okay to get to the ? For those that take for granted and hold no accountability, tell me:

Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

So I know I choose not to use this amazing grace from God as to just sin willfully, desire from God to teach me truth over
error(s)
So I write this:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And is not for one to take for granted, rather appreciate, and thus be taught truth from error by God and one learns to walk as he walked, by trusting God to in them what they could not do in self, ever of the flesh, only in the Spirit, and this is a gift from God, and one does as God calls. That is Love beyond measure 1 Cor 13:4-13 best Ex: of what God's Love is in the Spirit

We are accountable to trust God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IN AND THROUGH SON

 

[homwardbound]

5. Independent of whether one believes that libertarian free will exists or not, it seems obvious to me that beliefs cannot be chosen. I can see how my beliefs could change by seeing new evidence, hearing new arguments and so on and so forth. But I can´t simply choose to *genuinely* believe something out of the blue. I don´t claim to have studied all the arguments for christianity in detail (I most certainly did not), but so far, I don´t find the evidence for christianity to be convincing. I can´t simply choose to be convinced by something out of the blue. So if christianity is true and I would die tomorrow, wouldn´t I be sent to hell for something I could not have chosen any other way?

Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
2 Corinthians 3:6 who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Philippians 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The battle is between flesh and the Spirit of God, the flesh is selfish, the Spirit of God is lovingly Merciful to all
Hope this and pray this has helped you in who God truly is