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J
a few more interesting points on angels and humans.
the sethite theory didnt exist until around the 400s. the early church Fathers and Jewish leaders all thought they were angels, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Josephus, and Philo.
you also have this angel/human story being told all over the ancient world by different cultures that didnt know each other. the odds of that, billions and billions the late Carl Sagon would say.
the sethite theory didnt exist until around the 400s. the early church Fathers and Jewish leaders all thought they were angels, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Josephus, and Philo.
you also have this angel/human story being told all over the ancient world by different cultures that didnt know each other. the odds of that, billions and billions the late Carl Sagon would say.
You cannot prove that..it is just an assumption and the distinction is between MEN (SONS) and WOMEN (DAUGHTERS) and the "men" they bore were MEN of RENOWN........
And the LAW was not given to ISRAEL concerning marriage until when exactly, how any years after the flood?
AND even now it is not forbidden (believer marrying unbelievers) in the N.T.
Have some cake
hahahah jokes of course
And the LAW was not given to ISRAEL concerning marriage until when exactly, how any years after the flood?
AND even now it is not forbidden (believer marrying unbelievers) in the N.T.
Have some cake
hahahah jokes of course
Originally Posted by valiant
The fact is that 'children of the elohim' in Gen 6.1-4 refers to angelic beings.
The angels indulged in demonic intercourse with humans which is why all mankind had to be destroyed
The angels indulged in demonic intercourse with humans which is why all mankind had to be destroyed
As for Noah preaching to them, he wasn't very successful was he?
Hi,
sorry, I missed your post.
1. I think that Hosea is quite a late prophet, from a very different time than the Genesis or Job, so the vocabulary could change a little.
2. This verse says that they will be called so, not that it is their nature
3. It is not the same use:
Gen 6: οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ Θεοῦ (the definite article)
Hos 1:10: υἱοὶ Θεοῦ (without the definite article)
sorry, I missed your post.
1. I think that Hosea is quite a late prophet, from a very different time than the Genesis or Job, so the vocabulary could change a little.
2. This verse says that they will be called so, not that it is their nature
3. It is not the same use:
Gen 6: οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ Θεοῦ (the definite article)
Hos 1:10: υἱοὶ Θεοῦ (without the definite article)
Context is being ignored in order to promote a premise that is totally absurd. The context is the book of the generations OF ADAM. Gen 4:17 are some of the sons of Adam through Cain. Gen 5 are some of the sons of Adam through Seth(brother of Cain), all of those are sons of Adam and all of their female children are daughters of Adam. Eve was the wife of Adam and the mother of all living(humans). So all humans were the sons and daughters of Adam, AND all those sons and daughters of Adam HAD A HUMAN FAITHER, who had another human father, all the way back to Adam. Every single man , had one thing in common, both sons and daughters were sons and daughters OF MEN. This is explained in Gen 4 &5, then we have something completely different enter the picture, we have sons of God... these persons are not identified by an earthly father because they did not have an earthly father, they were created directly by God. All men and women were sons and daughters of the same man(Adam), the phrase "sons of God" was used to show that they did not come through Adam.
As mentioned the Godly line is Adam, the son of God, with Abel to carry out that line. Since Cain killed Able, "And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth,“For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed.” Genesis 4:25 in verses 26 "And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh. Then men began to call on the name of the Lord." The word men is added, Enosh means "Dedicated; disciplined", Seth, "Put; who puts; fixed" (Hitchcock's Bible names - Bible Dictionary) Eve name Seth-fixed, what Cain destroyed, for her Seed to be carried on, was fixed in Seth. Did Seth that brought back the line to carry her Seed, name his son Enosh-dedicated, because with him the line would continue to be dedicated to the Lord, to carry her Seed.
Seth carries on the son of God line of Adam Luke 3:23, 36-38 "Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,.................the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." No mention of Cain, why? Because Cain was not the son to carry the line to, "her Seed" as in "between your seed and her Seed." Her Seed, is Jesus, which is traced back to Adam the son of God and that line were the sons of God and Cain his line being men, which Genesis 4:16-24 give Cain's line, from Genesis 4:25 through 5:32 give the line of Adam, then.
Genesis 6:1 says "Now it came to pass, when men (line of Cain) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them (the line of Cain)," verve 2 "that the sons of God (line of Adam) saw the daughters of men (line of Cain), that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose"
Where are angels introduced in the lines of Adam and Cain in the context of the history of man before the flood? With the Seed being the main story line, From Genesis to Revelation the Bible is about Jesus, His coming, His life, His return. Noah is in the line from Adam to Jesus or from Jesus to Adam, with all that being in the overall context of the Bible and chapter 4 and 5, Cain's line and Adam's line with Adam's line to carry on the Seed (Jesus). Why would the Holy Spirit introduce fallen angels into the context of the immediate story and the overall story?
The book of Enoch chapter 10 has nothing to do with the story, because it talks about angel and their crime (sin) being charged to azazeal, there is no mention of anyone other then man be charged with the crime (sins/wickedness) that were committed and the judgement in Genesis 6:5, which were the result of Genesis 6:1-4.
Genesis 6:5-8 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."
With the context of Genesis 4:16-24 the line of Cain, men, his lines women, daughters of men. Genesis 4:25-5:32 the line of Adam the son of God, his line (of men) sons of God. With the two lines marrying in Genesis 6:1-4, the results of those unions Genesis 6:5, the Lord's reaction to the sickness of man, Genesis 6:6-7, with one man finding grace with the Lord, Noah, part of the line from Adam to Jesus, Genesis 6:8.
How did angels get into that context, if the sons of God are not the line of Adam and Cain's women are not the daughters of men? The immediate context of Genesis 4:16-5:32 and Genesis 6:5-8, it doesn't fit, nor the overall context, with "her Seed" being the coming Messiah and Adam's genealogy goes to Jesus with Noah in that line.
Angel do not fit the context, you have to read into the story, out of context, pull verse out of context and go outside of the Bible, to try and make a case that the "sons of God" as being fallen angels and to say they are not fallen, is even harder to prove. Because once they leave their first estate, they are reserved in chains of darkness to judgement, that does sound like an angel that is in good standing with God.
Seth carries on the son of God line of Adam Luke 3:23, 36-38 "Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,.................the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." No mention of Cain, why? Because Cain was not the son to carry the line to, "her Seed" as in "between your seed and her Seed." Her Seed, is Jesus, which is traced back to Adam the son of God and that line were the sons of God and Cain his line being men, which Genesis 4:16-24 give Cain's line, from Genesis 4:25 through 5:32 give the line of Adam, then.
Genesis 6:1 says "Now it came to pass, when men (line of Cain) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them (the line of Cain)," verve 2 "that the sons of God (line of Adam) saw the daughters of men (line of Cain), that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose"
Where are angels introduced in the lines of Adam and Cain in the context of the history of man before the flood? With the Seed being the main story line, From Genesis to Revelation the Bible is about Jesus, His coming, His life, His return. Noah is in the line from Adam to Jesus or from Jesus to Adam, with all that being in the overall context of the Bible and chapter 4 and 5, Cain's line and Adam's line with Adam's line to carry on the Seed (Jesus). Why would the Holy Spirit introduce fallen angels into the context of the immediate story and the overall story?
The book of Enoch chapter 10 has nothing to do with the story, because it talks about angel and their crime (sin) being charged to azazeal, there is no mention of anyone other then man be charged with the crime (sins/wickedness) that were committed and the judgement in Genesis 6:5, which were the result of Genesis 6:1-4.
Genesis 6:5-8 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."
With the context of Genesis 4:16-24 the line of Cain, men, his lines women, daughters of men. Genesis 4:25-5:32 the line of Adam the son of God, his line (of men) sons of God. With the two lines marrying in Genesis 6:1-4, the results of those unions Genesis 6:5, the Lord's reaction to the sickness of man, Genesis 6:6-7, with one man finding grace with the Lord, Noah, part of the line from Adam to Jesus, Genesis 6:8.
How did angels get into that context, if the sons of God are not the line of Adam and Cain's women are not the daughters of men? The immediate context of Genesis 4:16-5:32 and Genesis 6:5-8, it doesn't fit, nor the overall context, with "her Seed" being the coming Messiah and Adam's genealogy goes to Jesus with Noah in that line.
Angel do not fit the context, you have to read into the story, out of context, pull verse out of context and go outside of the Bible, to try and make a case that the "sons of God" as being fallen angels and to say they are not fallen, is even harder to prove. Because once they leave their first estate, they are reserved in chains of darkness to judgement, that does sound like an angel that is in good standing with God.
1. How is Adam the son of God?
- Adam was created, not begotten by God
- Adam was just a human
- Adam fell into death
2. What "godly line" you are talking about, in the time of Noah, there was only one man righteous - Noah.
- there was no "godly tribe" taking ungodly women
- Bible says all were wicked except of Noah, so why to call them "the sons of God"?
- why is "the" in "the sons of God"?
- Adam was created, not begotten by God
- Adam was just a human
- Adam fell into death
2. What "godly line" you are talking about, in the time of Noah, there was only one man righteous - Noah.
- there was no "godly tribe" taking ungodly women
- Bible says all were wicked except of Noah, so why to call them "the sons of God"?
- why is "the" in "the sons of God"?
J
how does a human man, get with a human woman of his own kind, and they produce a giant, not of their own kind?
why does everyone believe it was angels and humans up until 400AD?
how does sons of the Most High, if mankind, present themselves before the Father in Job?
how does sons of the Most High, if mankind, get into a "divine council" in psalm 82?
one has to really flip scripture on its head to make this sethite thing work.
why does everyone believe it was angels and humans up until 400AD?
how does sons of the Most High, if mankind, present themselves before the Father in Job?
how does sons of the Most High, if mankind, get into a "divine council" in psalm 82?
one has to really flip scripture on its head to make this sethite thing work.
So.....being consistent with the scriptures.....When JESUS, PAUL, PETER and others quoted or referenced a prophet of OLD...did they not make reference to something that was written before.....?
Can you give three examples where a quote is made by one under inspiration where the written word is not referenced?
or are you saying that JUDE was inspired to give Enoch's quote with NO way to reference the validity of said quote?
Like he just pulled it out of thin air, and was inspired by GOD to give the quote in JUDE?
EITHER way the inference of Jude's quote is applied and compared to SODOM and the statement going after strange flesh.
SO..........
and what proof is there that there was no written language during the time of Enoch.....what source do you refer to?
Can you give three examples where a quote is made by one under inspiration where the written word is not referenced?
or are you saying that JUDE was inspired to give Enoch's quote with NO way to reference the validity of said quote?
Like he just pulled it out of thin air, and was inspired by GOD to give the quote in JUDE?
EITHER way the inference of Jude's quote is applied and compared to SODOM and the statement going after strange flesh.
SO..........
and what proof is there that there was no written language during the time of Enoch.....what source do you refer to?
The term "son of God" is used in Scripture for any man or angel which is sinless at the time of their creation. Thus, Adam was a son of God, but Seth was a son of Adam, for sin had entered the race. The angels are sons of God. We who are born again receive power to become the sons of God by virtue of our being new creatures made righteous in Christ.
Very one sided debate, the argument on the anti angle side seems to be that since the actual word "angel" was not used, therefore we are going to believe an alternate story that logically could not happen. Here is what is illogical, the sons of God were not doing Godly things, they were having sex they should not be having. So if the sons of Seth were involved, how could they be identified as GOOD(sons of God) when they were doing something BAD, having sex they should not be having. Now if the phrase, sons of God, simply meant that they were created and not from Adam, then it makes sense. In Genesis all males were identified as the son of another man, yet these persons who took daughters of men were not identified as having a man for a father. Then we have Jude and Peter in the NT telling us of angels in the past who sinned in a sexual way that are confined to a holding place until the day of judgment.