Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
- Thread starter Elin
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Pretty much the same way your desire to follow Christ and your every day walk is affected by
the visit of the Magi at Jesus' birth,
the flight into Egypt,
his flogging by Pilate,
his crown of thorns,
his mocking by the soldiers,
his rejection by unbelieving Jews,
the anointing of his body for burial,
etc., etc., etc.
the visit of the Magi at Jesus' birth,
the flight into Egypt,
his flogging by Pilate,
his crown of thorns,
his mocking by the soldiers,
his rejection by unbelieving Jews,
the anointing of his body for burial,
etc., etc., etc.
E
Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
Has the age of the gentiles been completed? No
It gives us a timeframe of when they will all repent. And tells us gentiles NOT to be so proud that we took it from them (so why are you so proud I must ask?) The fact they have not repented. proves we are not to that time frame yet.
Rom 9-11 is about God choosing Isreal. and showing
1. He did not choose them because of their righteous acts (they earned it) He chose them before their father was even born (two nations are in your womb) nor does a jew make you automatically saved
2. That they would rebell. And God would spread his gospel all over the world. (at which time there will be a spiritual kingdom. neither jew or gentile
3. That at this time, they in unbelief will be blinded to the truth (our enemy)
4. That when this time is over, they will all repent.
It is NOT all about salvation. that is not true. and not in context.
Has the age of the gentiles been completed? No
It gives us a timeframe of when they will all repent. And tells us gentiles NOT to be so proud that we took it from them (so why are you so proud I must ask?) The fact they have not repented. proves we are not to that time frame yet.
Rom 9-11 is about God choosing Isreal. and showing
1. He did not choose them because of their righteous acts (they earned it) He chose them before their father was even born (two nations are in your womb) nor does a jew make you automatically saved
2. That they would rebell. And God would spread his gospel all over the world. (at which time there will be a spiritual kingdom. neither jew or gentile
3. That at this time, they in unbelief will be blinded to the truth (our enemy)
4. That when this time is over, they will all repent.
It is NOT all about salvation. that is not true. and not in context.
Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
quit making things up.
there's no "age of the gentiles" in scripture.
that's racist rubbish.
nonsense.
who did what exactly?
you have no clue.
1) according to Judaism i'm not a gentile i'm a jew.
2) according to Judaism, since i am a christian i am not a jew.
3) according to Christianity there are no jews or gentiles in Christ.
4) according to Christianity all in Christ are jews inwardly.
5) according to Christiantiy there is no distinction among unbelievers, jew or gentile.
.....they are unbelievers and need the Gospel not Land and guns.
quit making things up.
people are dying over it.
nonsense.
there's either a real King (the King of Israel who is called Jesus of Nazareth) with a real Kingdom (where sinners are saved and become priests and heirs) or there's no King and no Kingdom...at all.
dispensationalism makes things up. like denying Jesus fulfilled and set aside the old Covenant (including, and first in order for Israel) because the New One is better.
Daniel 9 is completely fulfilled exactly as God Promised.
Jesus is not satan.
the New Covenant in His Blood confirmed is not some peace treaty via the UN or some other ridiculosity.
oh ya, it is all about salvation.
all the dead christian soldiers, and all the dead muslims, and all the dead jews who thought God has two people and two covenants and His plan is racial.
quit making things up.
there's no "age of the gentiles" in scripture.
that's racist rubbish.
nonsense.
who did what exactly?
you have no clue.
1) according to Judaism i'm not a gentile i'm a jew.
2) according to Judaism, since i am a christian i am not a jew.
3) according to Christianity there are no jews or gentiles in Christ.
4) according to Christianity all in Christ are jews inwardly.
5) according to Christiantiy there is no distinction among unbelievers, jew or gentile.
.....they are unbelievers and need the Gospel not Land and guns.
quit making things up.
people are dying over it.
nonsense.
there's either a real King (the King of Israel who is called Jesus of Nazareth) with a real Kingdom (where sinners are saved and become priests and heirs) or there's no King and no Kingdom...at all.
dispensationalism makes things up. like denying Jesus fulfilled and set aside the old Covenant (including, and first in order for Israel) because the New One is better.
Daniel 9 is completely fulfilled exactly as God Promised.
Jesus is not satan.
the New Covenant in His Blood confirmed is not some peace treaty via the UN or some other ridiculosity.
oh ya, it is all about salvation.
all the dead christian soldiers, and all the dead muslims, and all the dead jews who thought God has two people and two covenants and His plan is racial.
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A
I read it the same as EG. Although i had clearer glasses and see
that the gentiles had their fullness in the church(full status and blessing)
and Israelites in fact did believe and were grafted back in. Since they have
been coming in than that period is over with.
Of coarse All Israel will be
saved can only mean those who continue not in unbelief.
The purpose of the three chapters is to show Gods will cant be thwarted
even with heavy resistance He can make good from it.
Israel was hardened just like pharaoh thats the point of chapter 9 but they
already hardened themselves. God just used what they were already doing to
bring His wrath openningly and did it to show mercy. Both to the world and in the process
cause Israel to be jealous and look into it and find their savour(deliverer out of sion)
Then made the twain one new man.
Some see in chapter 9 God saying He picks em for salvation and picks them for damnation.
I dont see that at all quite the opposite. I see that He uses those who choose to defy Him for good purposes.
And further His purposes in redeeming those who believe. And He does effective evangelism during.
Romans 9:22-23
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[SUP]h[/SUP]21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Jeremiah 18
1This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2“Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.” 3So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.5Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel
[SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9 is about Israel. Not for making salvation doctrine.
that the gentiles had their fullness in the church(full status and blessing)
and Israelites in fact did believe and were grafted back in. Since they have
been coming in than that period is over with.
Of coarse All Israel will be saved can only mean those who continue not in unbelief.
The purpose of the three chapters is to show Gods will cant be thwarted
even with heavy resistance He can make good from it.
Israel was hardened just like pharaoh thats the point of chapter 9 but they
already hardened themselves. God just used what they were already doing to
bring His wrath openningly and did it to show mercy. Both to the world and in the process
cause Israel to be jealous and look into it and find their savour(deliverer out of sion)
Then made the twain one new man.
Some see in chapter 9 God saying He picks em for salvation and picks them for damnation.
I dont see that at all quite the opposite. I see that He uses those who choose to defy Him for good purposes.
And further His purposes in redeeming those who believe. And He does effective evangelism during.
Romans 9:22-23
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[SUP]h[/SUP]21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Jeremiah 18
1This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2“Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.” 3So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.5Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel
[SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9 is about Israel. Not for making salvation doctrine.
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E
Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
Oh You can't read scripture?
Luke 24
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Rom 11
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Times of are complete. Fullness. Age.. same difference. Get off your racist crap, it is not racist at all. Jesus explained in Luke 24 what it is, it is the time Jerusalem is trampled by gentiles.
yeah, this is a real good response. It really proves me wrong (rolls eyes) I will sure listen to YOU!
According to Paul your a gentile or jew, whichever you are..
Rom 11:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, [SUP]14 [/SUP]if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Paul is speaking to you Gentiles WHO ARE SAVED. who were GRAFTED IN, and comparing you to ISREAL, who are either
1. Blinded by unbelief
2. A part of the remnant.
Face it. there are saved gentiles and unsaved gentiles
there are saved isreal and unsaved isreal
As far as eternity goes. there is no difference.
As far as Gods plan on earth (which continues today) there is a difference.
I can't help it if you can't see it
lol. Why do you keep saying this to me? When I over and over and over say the same thing??
Is this supposed to change my mind and bring me to your belief?? How? When I believe it too.
Thats fiunny. Jews died by the millions from the second century on because people thought God was done with the jews, and given ALL his promises to the church. The hate propagated by rome continued and spread out, even to people like Hitler who followed Luther.. and claimed he did it in the name of God.
You have no problem with this. But you claim people are dieing over another FALSE belief that I do not promote or preach?
You know what they call this do you not?
well the OT spoke of two. So I will chose to believe God. Not you
there were 4 covenants. the only one done away with was the mosaic.. yes, much of the traditional dispys made things up. but no more than ammilenial people did in rome. Both are dangerous and causing hate. Look at the hate you have?
Again I refer you to your question.
Thats why daniel 9 is not fulfilled. But you can;t see this.
Jesus did not abominate the temple, and Jesus is not a future world leader who will proclaim himself to be God who;s people destroyd the city of jerusalem.
lol./ Not even worth it
No, it is not about salvation. Paul makes this clear. You can say it all you want, it will not make it true.
All these dead people in the middle east has absolutely nothing to do about roman 9 - 11. it has everything to do with the extreme hate Satan has, and his continued effort to wipe isreal off the map. he has been trying it for 4000 years now. Maybe one day he will wisen up. Oh wait, Prophesy states he wont.
Oh You can't read scripture?
Luke 24
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Rom 11
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Times of are complete. Fullness. Age.. same difference. Get off your racist crap, it is not racist at all. Jesus explained in Luke 24 what it is, it is the time Jerusalem is trampled by gentiles.
yeah, this is a real good response. It really proves me wrong (rolls eyes) I will sure listen to YOU!
According to Paul your a gentile or jew, whichever you are..
Rom 11:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, [SUP]14 [/SUP]if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Paul is speaking to you Gentiles WHO ARE SAVED. who were GRAFTED IN, and comparing you to ISREAL, who are either
1. Blinded by unbelief
2. A part of the remnant.
Face it. there are saved gentiles and unsaved gentiles
there are saved isreal and unsaved isreal
As far as eternity goes. there is no difference.
As far as Gods plan on earth (which continues today) there is a difference.
I can't help it if you can't see it
lol. Why do you keep saying this to me? When I over and over and over say the same thing??
Is this supposed to change my mind and bring me to your belief?? How? When I believe it too.
Thats fiunny. Jews died by the millions from the second century on because people thought God was done with the jews, and given ALL his promises to the church. The hate propagated by rome continued and spread out, even to people like Hitler who followed Luther.. and claimed he did it in the name of God.
You have no problem with this. But you claim people are dieing over another FALSE belief that I do not promote or preach?
You know what they call this do you not?
well the OT spoke of two. So I will chose to believe God. Not you
there were 4 covenants. the only one done away with was the mosaic.. yes, much of the traditional dispys made things up. but no more than ammilenial people did in rome. Both are dangerous and causing hate. Look at the hate you have?
Again I refer you to your question.
Thats why daniel 9 is not fulfilled. But you can;t see this.
Jesus did not abominate the temple, and Jesus is not a future world leader who will proclaim himself to be God who;s people destroyd the city of jerusalem.
lol./ Not even worth it
No, it is not about salvation. Paul makes this clear. You can say it all you want, it will not make it true.
All these dead people in the middle east has absolutely nothing to do about roman 9 - 11. it has everything to do with the extreme hate Satan has, and his continued effort to wipe isreal off the map. he has been trying it for 4000 years now. Maybe one day he will wisen up. Oh wait, Prophesy states he wont.
Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
fulfilled.
a little blip on the radar called 70AD.
Rome fell shortly after.
the gentiles in that passage HAVE NOTHING to do with 'gentiles in the Church' ('gentile church age' nonsense).
you'd think anyone remotely familiar with the Bible would know that.
fulfilled.
a little blip on the radar called 70AD.
Rome fell shortly after.
the gentiles in that passage HAVE NOTHING to do with 'gentiles in the Church' ('gentile church age' nonsense).
you'd think anyone remotely familiar with the Bible would know that.
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A
I read it the same as EG. Although i had clearer glasses and see
that the gentiles had their fullness in the church(full status and blessing)
fullness of the gentiles and times of the gentiles are not the same ref bud, two different things.
If you quit making them the same you may form a different outlook
that the gentiles had their fullness in the church(full status and blessing)
fullness of the gentiles and times of the gentiles are not the same ref bud, two different things.
If you quit making them the same you may form a different outlook
A
Imagine 70ad came along and you had no idea what the heck was going on.
It would seem at least Jesus would have at least mentioned it. ha
Wait! He did. but maybe they thought hmmm maybe while the city was burning they said....whats this?
what Jesus was talking about isnt sposed to happen for a few thousand years.
Not till all the gentiles are done warring or sumptin
It would seem at least Jesus would have at least mentioned it. ha
Wait! He did. but maybe they thought hmmm maybe while the city was burning they said....whats this?
what Jesus was talking about isnt sposed to happen for a few thousand years.
Not till all the gentiles are done war
ring or sumptin
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i know you don't believe God Fulfilled His Promise of the Deliverer.
you've said it a thousand times and a thousand ways.
you don't believe God released whosoever would from captivity, and that a remnant returned, and were in Israel in time for the birth, life death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, their King, Saviour and Messiah.
their Deliverer out of Zion.
i know you don't believe that.
what has that to do with anything?
faithful Israel (Jacob's faithful people) SAID HERE IS THE CHRIST, AND HE IS JESUS OF NAZARETH.
we are now CHRISTIANS (and our names are Peter, Paul, Andrew, James and so on).
and we were all gathered at Jerusalem, for Pentecost, and the promise of the Spirit was poured out, and one of us JEWS, named Peter, preached the Gospel message he received to all us devout JEWS who were dwelling at Jerusalem, and many of us believed and were baptized and became Christians (we were first called Christians at Antioch) and the Gospel then, after it had come to us JEWS, just like God Promised, went out to all nations and the JEW Paul was appointed Apostle to the Gentiles and the Church was no longer a Mystery hidden from Ages past.
my (Jacob's) faithful family was redeemed. we were rescued from ungodliness, our transgressions were forgiven, everlasting righteousness was brought in for us through Our Kinsman Redeemer Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Emmanuel.
Hosanna! Hosanna! we cried. and Our God delivered us from our slavery and we are no longer exiles and not loved, we are now loved and saved by JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH OUR KINSMAN REDEEMER.
but our brothers of the flesh, we wish we ourselves were cut off for their sake, since all the Good things God gave US JEWS, they had also, but they did not believe God's Plan for us, they believed the Messiah would be a Revolutionary and would murder everyone and give the Power of the Kingdom to us in this earth and we would rule the world from Jerusalem which now is.
but some of us, namely our brother of the flesh, Paul a JEW, told us that:
Galatians 4
Sons and Heirs
1I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,a though he is the owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principlesb of the world. 4But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
and so we faithful of Jacob understood that there was a New Covenant, and Our King had come, and our old ways were no longer remaining because we finally understood that none of that COULD SAVE US, but that it was JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH Whom God appointed to turn us from dead works and toward God and our hearts were pricked and circumcised and we were born again and WE WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT FOR YOU.
you've said it a thousand times and a thousand ways.
you don't believe God released whosoever would from captivity, and that a remnant returned, and were in Israel in time for the birth, life death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, their King, Saviour and Messiah.
their Deliverer out of Zion.
i know you don't believe that.
what has that to do with anything?
faithful Israel (Jacob's faithful people) SAID HERE IS THE CHRIST, AND HE IS JESUS OF NAZARETH.
we are now CHRISTIANS (and our names are Peter, Paul, Andrew, James and so on).
and we were all gathered at Jerusalem, for Pentecost, and the promise of the Spirit was poured out, and one of us JEWS, named Peter, preached the Gospel message he received to all us devout JEWS who were dwelling at Jerusalem, and many of us believed and were baptized and became Christians (we were first called Christians at Antioch) and the Gospel then, after it had come to us JEWS, just like God Promised, went out to all nations and the JEW Paul was appointed Apostle to the Gentiles and the Church was no longer a Mystery hidden from Ages past.
my (Jacob's) faithful family was redeemed. we were rescued from ungodliness, our transgressions were forgiven, everlasting righteousness was brought in for us through Our Kinsman Redeemer Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Emmanuel.
Hosanna! Hosanna! we cried. and Our God delivered us from our slavery and we are no longer exiles and not loved, we are now loved and saved by JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH OUR KINSMAN REDEEMER.
but our brothers of the flesh, we wish we ourselves were cut off for their sake, since all the Good things God gave US JEWS, they had also, but they did not believe God's Plan for us, they believed the Messiah would be a Revolutionary and would murder everyone and give the Power of the Kingdom to us in this earth and we would rule the world from Jerusalem which now is.
but some of us, namely our brother of the flesh, Paul a JEW, told us that:
Galatians 4
Sons and Heirs
1I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,a though he is the owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principlesb of the world. 4But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
and so we faithful of Jacob understood that there was a New Covenant, and Our King had come, and our old ways were no longer remaining because we finally understood that none of that COULD SAVE US, but that it was JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH Whom God appointed to turn us from dead works and toward God and our hearts were pricked and circumcised and we were born again and WE WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT FOR YOU.
I really appreciate your participation, Mike.
It wouldn't be the same without you.
However, note that Paul presents it a little differently when he states that God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden, and then Paul uses God's name in Ex 33:19, as well as the account of Pharoah, to prove with facts that is God's principle (Ro 9:15-18).
Paul presents it that way because before God even sent Moses to Egypt, he told Moses that he would harden Pharoah's heart so that he would not let the people go.
"So that" states God's purpose in his delierate action.
Yes, we are all born with hardened hearts (Mt 7:11), which are softened only by God's grace.
So when God "hardens" a heart, all he does is not provide his softening grace, and leaves it to its rebellious inclinations.
However regarding God hardening hearts only to destroy them or send them to hell, 2Th 2:10-12 comes to mind:
"They perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved.
For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie,
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."
Well, I think the text of Ro 9:14-21 shows that the reason Paul went into that was to vindicate God as just, rather than unjust, in sovereignly hardening some and not all.
Not all Israel was cut off. Only unbelieving Israel was cut off. The believing remnant was never cut off, and did not have to be regrafted.
Did you mean "bound" instead of "found"?
It states that he concluded, consigned (penned up), shut up, bound all in disobedience/unbelief.
It was God who bound them, shut them up in.
And then the Greek word used in Ro 11:32 is apeitheia, which means "unbelief, disobedience," because willing disobedience is unbelief.
God bound all men over to disobedience/unbelief for a period, Gentiles before the gospel, and Jews after the gospel.
Keeping in mind that all men are born in rebellion and unbelief (Eph 2:3; Ro 7:7-8), then to "bind them over" to disobedience/unbelief is simply a withholding of God's grace which changes rebellious unbelieving hearts.
Paul is pointing out that both groups under discussion, Jews and Gentiles, have had a period of disobedience.
He is not stating that every Gentile was in unbelief before the gospel, and that every Jew was in unbelief after the gospel.
The Biblical record testifies to faith and obedience among both.
Actually, Ro 9 is about vindicating God's justice in cutting off Israel, to whom were the promises.
Paul shows that the promises were not to all Abraham's descendants, as they were not to Ishmael and Esau.
Paul shows that God's sovereign action is choosing some of Abraham's descendants, and not all, is nothing new.
So his cutting off of all but a believing remanant of Israel is consistent with what he has always done in Israel, and therefore is not a breaking of his promises to Israel.
I think the issue is God breaking his promises to Israel in cutting off the unbelievers.
National election comes in only as election to be the people of God.
That election has been withdrawn from unbelieving Israel and bestowed on those who believe in Christ.
All unbeliving Israelites are welcome to admittance back into the people of God again, through faith in Jesus Christ.
I think there are two things that are being confused in Ro 9 and 11:
1) every individual is born in rebellion and unbelief, unregenerate (Eph 2:3; Ro 8:7-8),
2) Ro 9 is about two groups each having a period of disobedience/unbelief
(Gentiles before the gospel, Israel after the gospel, which then removed them from the people of God)
so that all mankind is now on the same footing; i.e., admittance into the people of God is only by faith in Jesus Christ.
I think God binding all men over to disobedience/unbelief (Ro 11:32) refers to the two groups under discussion, and not to every individual in the group.
I think that no Israelite was saved since they were hardened is a misunderstanding of what Paul is saying in Ro 9 and 11.
It wouldn't be the same without you.
However, note that Paul presents it a little differently when he states that God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden, and then Paul uses God's name in Ex 33:19, as well as the account of Pharoah, to prove with facts that is God's principle (Ro 9:15-18).
Paul presents it that way because before God even sent Moses to Egypt, he told Moses that he would harden Pharoah's heart so that he would not let the people go.
"So that" states God's purpose in his delierate action.
Yes, we are all born with hardened hearts (Mt 7:11), which are softened only by God's grace.
So when God "hardens" a heart, all he does is not provide his softening grace, and leaves it to its rebellious inclinations.
However regarding God hardening hearts only to destroy them or send them to hell, 2Th 2:10-12 comes to mind:
"They perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved.
For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie,
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."
Well, I think the text of Ro 9:14-21 shows that the reason Paul went into that was to vindicate God as just, rather than unjust, in sovereignly hardening some and not all.
Not all Israel was cut off. Only unbelieving Israel was cut off. The believing remnant was never cut off, and did not have to be regrafted.
Did you mean "bound" instead of "found"?
It states that he concluded, consigned (penned up), shut up, bound all in disobedience/unbelief.
It was God who bound them, shut them up in.
And then the Greek word used in Ro 11:32 is apeitheia, which means "unbelief, disobedience," because willing disobedience is unbelief.
God bound all men over to disobedience/unbelief for a period, Gentiles before the gospel, and Jews after the gospel.
Keeping in mind that all men are born in rebellion and unbelief (Eph 2:3; Ro 7:7-8), then to "bind them over" to disobedience/unbelief is simply a withholding of God's grace which changes rebellious unbelieving hearts.
Paul is pointing out that both groups under discussion, Jews and Gentiles, have had a period of disobedience.
He is not stating that every Gentile was in unbelief before the gospel, and that every Jew was in unbelief after the gospel.
The Biblical record testifies to faith and obedience among both.
Actually, Ro 9 is about vindicating God's justice in cutting off Israel, to whom were the promises.
Paul shows that the promises were not to all Abraham's descendants, as they were not to Ishmael and Esau.
Paul shows that God's sovereign action is choosing some of Abraham's descendants, and not all, is nothing new.
So his cutting off of all but a believing remanant of Israel is consistent with what he has always done in Israel, and therefore is not a breaking of his promises to Israel.
I think the issue is God breaking his promises to Israel in cutting off the unbelievers.
National election comes in only as election to be the people of God.
That election has been withdrawn from unbelieving Israel and bestowed on those who believe in Christ.
All unbeliving Israelites are welcome to admittance back into the people of God again, through faith in Jesus Christ.
I think there are two things that are being confused in Ro 9 and 11:
1) every individual is born in rebellion and unbelief, unregenerate (Eph 2:3; Ro 8:7-8),
2) Ro 9 is about two groups each having a period of disobedience/unbelief
(Gentiles before the gospel, Israel after the gospel, which then removed them from the people of God)
so that all mankind is now on the same footing; i.e., admittance into the people of God is only by faith in Jesus Christ.
I think God binding all men over to disobedience/unbelief (Ro 11:32) refers to the two groups under discussion, and not to every individual in the group.
I think that no Israelite was saved since they were hardened is a misunderstanding of what Paul is saying in Ro 9 and 11.
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Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
More likely why would I have anything to do with you?
You refuse to accept the requirement of belief Christ himself, who spoke the word of God on this earth laid down as to who a person must believe him to be to inherit eternal life by adding to it(which in truth you do). Yet we know the Spirit of God cannot contradict the word of God, so who is leading you to come to your man made conclusions? Why didn't Jesus plainly state a person must believe He is God Himself to inhherit etrnal life? How many plain bible verses have you got to back up your extra biblical demands for salvation? None?
I can give you loads to back up mine. But you have got your scholars and theologians of course
When it is pointed out to you the ministers won't preach from the pulpit(or hardly any would) what to you is the core of the Gospel unto salvation and the consequences of getting it wrong you refuse to respond. I get a vision of you putting your fingers in your ears shaking your head and screaming 'stop, stop, I don't want to hear it.'
On top of that well over 90% of church members would not make your immature demands, neither did Christ, Peter, Paul, James or John
It is always the same, the spiritually immature come onto these websites, those who think they know and make extra biblical demands for salvation hardly anyone else makes. Actually people like you Zone, make the ministers in Trinitarian churches look like people who should neve have been allowed in the pulpit. For everyonew knows a minister is plainly obligated to preach loudly and clearly from the pulpit any salvific belief and the cconsequences of getrting it wrong. But you can't face any of this, only bury your head in the sand
But then many who have read up of scholars asnd theologians and who have gained much head knowledge come onto the internet, people wise in their own eyes and think they have discerned/understood much spiritual truth from their endeavours. What is the result for some?
They believe people will stand condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
You don't even understand the basics of the faith.
I'll leave you to it, you are back on ignore permenantly. Anyone who refuses to accept the requiremnt of belief Christ himself laid down unto salvation I want no corrspondance with
You discredit the bible itself actually. For you believe the belief eternal life hinges on is not even plainly written in scripture
I guess if it all was though that would take your fun away wouldn't it. No point in all that studying you thrive on then
You are on ignore, permenantly
More likely why would I have anything to do with you?
You refuse to accept the requirement of belief Christ himself, who spoke the word of God on this earth laid down as to who a person must believe him to be to inherit eternal life by adding to it(which in truth you do). Yet we know the Spirit of God cannot contradict the word of God, so who is leading you to come to your man made conclusions? Why didn't Jesus plainly state a person must believe He is God Himself to inhherit etrnal life? How many plain bible verses have you got to back up your extra biblical demands for salvation? None?
I can give you loads to back up mine. But you have got your scholars and theologians of course
When it is pointed out to you the ministers won't preach from the pulpit(or hardly any would) what to you is the core of the Gospel unto salvation and the consequences of getting it wrong you refuse to respond. I get a vision of you putting your fingers in your ears shaking your head and screaming 'stop, stop, I don't want to hear it.'
On top of that well over 90% of church members would not make your immature demands, neither did Christ, Peter, Paul, James or John
It is always the same, the spiritually immature come onto these websites, those who think they know and make extra biblical demands for salvation hardly anyone else makes. Actually people like you Zone, make the ministers in Trinitarian churches look like people who should neve have been allowed in the pulpit. For everyonew knows a minister is plainly obligated to preach loudly and clearly from the pulpit any salvific belief and the cconsequences of getrting it wrong. But you can't face any of this, only bury your head in the sand
But then many who have read up of scholars asnd theologians and who have gained much head knowledge come onto the internet, people wise in their own eyes and think they have discerned/understood much spiritual truth from their endeavours. What is the result for some?
They believe people will stand condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
You don't even understand the basics of the faith.
I'll leave you to it, you are back on ignore permenantly. Anyone who refuses to accept the requiremnt of belief Christ himself laid down unto salvation I want no corrspondance with
You discredit the bible itself actually. For you believe the belief eternal life hinges on is not even plainly written in scripture
I guess if it all was though that would take your fun away wouldn't it. No point in all that studying you thrive on then
You are on ignore, permenantly
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