Speaking in Tongues (Privately, Outside of Church)

[reneweddaybyday]

Kavik,

In your Post #258, you replied to my Post #243 and you replied to peacefulbeliever's Post #248 without distinguishing to whom you were responding. I am responding to your reply to my post #243.

Actually no, they didn’t. Unlearned and ignorant doesn’t equate to not being able to converse in another language. They were Hellenized Jews and also merchants of sorts (fishermen who presumably sold their catches) - no reason to think they weren’t familiar with Greek. If indeed, Peter traveled to Rome, he would have spoken Greek, not Latin.

In Acts 2:7, the people who heard the apostles speak in tongues were amazed because "are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"

Your insistence that the manifestation of tongues was commonplace/ordinary because "they were Hellenized Jews and also merchants of sorts" is disproved by the amazement of the firsthand eyewitnesses at the time. The people present at the time took note and marveled that these Galilaeans spoke in the native tongue of those present.

The ability to speak a foreign language (the Biblical meaning of ‘speaking in tongues’) does not require one to be born again.

The manifestation of kinds of tongues spoken of in 1 Cor 12:10 does require a person to be born again.

To learn a foreign language through study can be learned by anyone ... born again or not born again (natural man).

The Spirit may indeed inspire one what to say, but not the language used to say it in.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The apostles spoke the words revealed to them by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, he may give the gift of ministries, but when one is ministering to either foreigners or in another country, s/he will need to learn the language spoken (‘speak with new tongues’).

Learning the language spoken in another country is not the same thing as the manifestation of kinds of tongues spoken of in 1 Cor 12:10.

 

[notuptome]

Learning the language spoken in another country is not the same thing as the manifestation of kinds of tongues spoken of in 1 Cor 12:10.

More opinion or wishful thinking than actual bible exegesis. I'm quite certain you have heard the expression of a person having a gift for learning new languages or having an ear for language.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[heartofdavid]

The book of acts as well as most of the NT was written to tongue speaking believers baptised in the Holy Spirit after conversion.

That gift was never meant to be policed by non tongue speakers.

Yet we have modern " instructors" telling us who have recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit how that dynamic operates.

Guys, take a deep breath. The Holy Spirit is a really ,really,really good thing.
No boggey man

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Learning the language spoken in another country is not the same thing as the manifestation of kinds of tongues spoken of in 1 Cor 12:10.

More opinion or wishful thinking than actual bible exegesis. I'm quite certain you have heard the expression of a person having a gift for learning new languages or having an ear for language.

If I were to serve as a missionary in another country and I was unfamiliar with the language spoken in that locale, I would take a course at a school or purchase a book or a computer application (Rosetta Stone for example) to learn the language.

Are you now claiming that the manifestation of the Spirit spoken of in 1 Cor 12:10 (i.e. kinds of tongues) is the same as learning a language through schooling, reading, computer application?

 

[notuptome]

If I were to serve as a missionary in another country and I was unfamiliar with the language spoken in that locale, I would take a course at a school or purchase a book or a computer application (Rosetta Stone for example) to learn the language.

Are you now claiming that the manifestation of the Spirit spoken of in 1 Cor 12:10 (i.e. kinds of tongues) is the same as learning a language through schooling, reading, computer application?

In the modern church that is much closer to what the text teaches. Today the Holy Spirit gives the ability to learn other tongues. Tongues are always languages and never ecstatic utterances. Paul was well schooled in multiple languages which were the root languages of most of the region in which he ministered.

The miraculous ability to speak other languages ended when the canon of scripture was completed. Much the with men called into the ministry. A call to ministry is a call to prepare for that ministry. A musician needs to learn how to play their instrument so a pastor needs to learn how to lead a local assembly for Gods glory.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

In the modern church that is much closer to what the text teaches. Today the Holy Spirit gives the ability to learn other tongues. Tongues are always languages and never ecstatic utterances. Paul was well schooled in multiple languages which were the root languages of most of the region in which he ministered.

The miraculous ability to speak other languages ended when the canon of scripture was completed. Much the with men called into the ministry. A call to ministry is a call to prepare for that ministry. A musician needs to learn how to play their instrument so a pastor needs to learn how to lead a local assembly for Gods glory.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It sounds like you're saying that Paul, prior to his conversion, had a natural ability with languages that is now a spiritual gift, which would only be 'available' to Christians. That doesn't follow; many nonbelievers are polyglots.

In your second paragraph, it sounds like you're saying that the call to ministry ended when the canon of Scripture was completed.

Care to re-word these statements?

 

[Kavik]

@ reneweddaybyday

In Acts 2:7, the people who heard the apostles speak in tongues were amazed because "are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"

Yes, but with respect to ‘ecclesiastical diglossia’ (see previous posts/threads) they were amazed because these Galileans were speaking Greek and Aramaic and not the more culturally/religiously/socially correct language to use in this situation: Hebrew. Aren’t these all Galileeans?, i.e. they should know better (what are they thinking?).

The manifestation of kinds of tongues spoken of in 1 Cor 12:10 does require a person to be born again.

No, it certainly does not – the Spirit gives some the ability to speak different types of languages (keeping in mind that “type/kinds” here references various language families, a direct reference to real languages).

As “notuptome” alluded to, even today if someone has a particular “knack” for something specific, music, math, science, languages, fixing cars, etc., we say that they have a ‘gift’. “He’s a gifted doctor”, She’s a gifted scientist”, “This dude just has a gift for music, you should hear him play!”, etc.

‘Gift’ here I take to simply equate to ‘knack’, the propensity for being able to do a specific thing very easily when for most others it would be considered difficult. A person is gifted with an ability.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Again, the Spirit is inspiring them what to say – not what language to say it in. There’s a difference.
Kind of one of the issues I have with the antiquated 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century English of the KJV (both language and style) – you almost have to translate it into modern English to get a better sense of what’s being said. If you don’t, a lot of misinterpretation arises. A better reading of the line would be something like: “…and began to speak in languages what the Spirit inspired them to say.” You still need to read it in the context of the whole text though to know what the languages were. If you want to still use “other” – other than what?? Other than the expected Hebrew.


@heartofdavid -

The book of acts as well as most of the NT was written to tongue speaking believers baptised in the Holy Spirit after conversion.

Respectfully, that's an incredibly religiocentric train of thought. The NT (including Acts) was written for anyone desiring knowledge of the message of Jesus as well as the general precepts of Christianity.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

In the modern church that is much closer to what the text teaches. Today the Holy Spirit gives the ability to learn other tongues. Tongues are always languages and never ecstatic utterances. Paul was well schooled in multiple languages which were the root languages of most of the region in which he ministered.

Paul spoke in tongues through the same means the apostles spoke in tongues on Day of Pentecost.

The Spirit gives the utterance today just as the Spirit gave the utterance on Day of Pentecost.

The miraculous ability to speak other languages ended when the canon of scripture was completed.

Not in agreement with you on this issue.

Much the with men called into the ministry. A call to ministry is a call to prepare for that ministry. A musician needs to learn how to play their instrument so a pastor needs to learn how to lead a local assembly for Gods glory.

Taking a course in school to learn how to speak a foreign language is no more speaking in tongues than the musician going to school to learn music, or a pastor going to school to study theology.

If you were to take a course in school to learn a foreign language, you would be using your mind to speak the language you learned.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

In 1 Cor 14:14, the word "understanding" is the Greek word nous (mind).

Speaking in tongues is worked out through the spirit (the gift of holy spirit each believer receives when he/she is born again).

When a person speaks in tongues, it is the spirit praying.

 

[notuptome]

Paul spoke in tongues through the same means the apostles spoke in tongues on Day of Pentecost.

The Spirit gives the utterance today just as the Spirit gave the utterance on Day of Pentecost.

Based on opinion and not biblical exegesis. Your assertions are without foundation. You are assuming things that are not evident in the scriptures.

Not in agreement with you on this issue.

Fair enough.

Taking a course in school to learn how to speak a foreign language is no more speaking in tongues than the musician going to school to learn music, or a pastor going to school to study theology.

If you were to take a course in school to learn a foreign language, you would be using your mind to speak the language you learned.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

In 1 Cor 14:14, the word "understanding" is the Greek word nous (mind).

Speaking in tongues is worked out through the spirit (the gift of holy spirit each believer receives when he/she is born again).

When a person speaks in tongues, it is the spirit praying.

Here is a case where you are searching for a proof text because you have no biblical context. You want the Holy Spirit to do all the work for you. You want to speak in other languages without bothering to learn them. You want to pray without the "sweat", you want it all easy because you want God to do it for you. I heard an old evangelist preach and one of his illustrations included an admonition that God will not do for you what you are able to do for yourself. He said to pray for taters while the sweat rolls down the hoe handle.

We simply have no mandate in scripture to pray without knowledge. Proverbs teaches us to seek knowledge to seek understanding and by doing such to gain understanding. To take what Paul said he being a previously very devout Jew as to teach against the wisdom of the OT is not even believable.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Kavik]

Originally posted by reneweddaybyday –

Paul spoke in tongues through the same means the apostles spoke in tongues on Day of Pentecost.
The Spirit gives the utterance today just as the Spirit gave the utterance on Day of Pentecost.

There were really no means, per se – both languages were known by the apostles. Paul, as a result of his many travels, was multi-lingual (though traveling mainly in the Mediterranean Basin, probably really only needed three languages: Greek Aramaic, and Latin). The Spirit may have inspired these people as far as what to say, but again, not the language to say it in. The apostles were using languages they already knew.

If you were to take a course in school to learn a foreign language, you would be using your mind to speak the language you learned.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

In 1 Cor 14:14, the word "understanding" is the Greek word nous (mind).

That whole second half – “the fact that I understand what I’m saying produces no fruit in others (as they don’t speak my language and thus don’t understand a word I’m saying).” See previous comments.

Speaking in tongues is worked out through the spirit (the gift of holy spirit each believer receives when he/she is born again).

When a person speaks in tongues, it is the spirit praying.

The ability of “gift/knack” for speaking foreign languages may be given by the Spirit, but one doesn’t need to be born again to have a gift for languages.

 

[wolfwint]

Paul spoke in tongues through the same means the apostles spoke in tongues on Day of Pentecost.

The Spirit gives the utterance today just as the Spirit gave the utterance on Day of Pentecost.




Not in agreement with you on this issue.




Taking a course in school to learn how to speak a foreign language is no more speaking in tongues than the musician going to school to learn music, or a pastor going to school to study theology.

If you were to take a course in school to learn a foreign language, you would be using your mind to speak the language you learned.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

In 1 Cor 14:14, the word "understanding" is the Greek word nous (mind).

Speaking in tongues is worked out through the spirit (the gift of holy spirit each believer receives when he/she is born again).

When a person speaks in tongues, it is the spirit praying.

Sorry, this doctrine is not true, that all who are born again get the gift of speaking in tongues. There os mo single scripture proof for that.

 

[Enow]

Sorry, this doctrine is not true, that all who are born again get the gift of speaking in tongues. There os mo single scripture proof for that.

Scripture does reprove reneweddaybyday stance that all believers will speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]29 [/SUP]Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?[SUP] 30 [/SUP]Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Paul posing that questions pretty much testify that not every saved believer will speak in tongues.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Paul spoke in tongues through the same means the apostles spoke in tongues on Day of Pentecost.

The Spirit gives the utterance today just as the Spirit gave the utterance on Day of Pentecost.

Based on opinion and not biblical exegesis. Your assertions are without foundation. You are assuming things that are not evident in the scriptures.

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all

So now you're claiming Paul spoke in tongues in a manner not the same as the apostles? And thanked God he did so???

Here is a case where you are searching for a proof text because you have no biblical context. You want the Holy Spirit to do all the work for you. You want to speak in other languages without bothering to learn them. You want to pray without the "sweat", you want it all easy because you want God to do it for you. I heard an old evangelist preach and one of his illustrations included an admonition that God will not do for you what you are able to do for yourself. He said to pray for taters while the sweat rolls down the hoe handle.

You have no frame of reference to determine whether or not my prayer life is "sweaty enough" for you. God hears my prayers and He is all that matters in that regard. Please refrain from personal comment concerning my prayer life. Thank you.

We simply have no mandate in scripture to pray without knowledge. Proverbs teaches us to seek knowledge to seek understanding and by doing such to gain understanding. To take what Paul said he being a previously very devout Jew as to teach against the wisdom of the OT is not even believable.

Please provide the post wherein I said Paul taught "against the wisdom of the OT". Thank you.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Paul spoke in tongues through the same means the apostles spoke in tongues on Day of Pentecost.
The Spirit gives the utterance today just as the Spirit gave the utterance on Day of Pentecost.

There were really no means, per se – both languages were known by the apostles. Paul, as a result of his many travels, was multi-lingual (though traveling mainly in the Mediterranean Basin, probably really only needed three languages: Greek Aramaic, and Latin). The Spirit may have inspired these people as far as what to say, but again, not the language to say it in. The apostles were using languages they already knew.

There is a difference between the manifestation and that which is learned through exposure to or study of foreign languages. That you choose to equate the manifestation of kinds of tongues with that which is learned through study / exposure is your choice and no amount of explanation by me will suffice. I leave to God that which is His to work in your life.

If you were to take a course in school to learn a foreign language, you would be using your mind to speak the language you learned.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

In 1 Cor 14:14, the word "understanding" is the Greek word nous (mind).

That whole second half – “the fact that I understand what I’m saying produces no fruit in others (as they don’t speak my language and thus don’t understand a word I’m saying).”

Based upon what you claim to be speaking in tongues, your statement makes no sense.

In Post #258 you claim that "when one is ministering … s/he will need to learn the language spoken ('speak with new tongues')".

In Post #267 you stated that the manifestation of kinds of tongues was merely "a particular "knack" for something specific, music, math, science, languages, fixing cars, etc.".

So on the one hand, it appears you believe the manifestation of the Spirit is nothing more than a natural inclination or ability to do something.

Which completely contradicts your statement above where you state "they don't speak my language and thus don't understand a word I'm saying".

If the manifestation of kinds of tongues is nothing more than you learning the language of the locale where you go to minister, how would they "not understand a word" you are saying? You just took the time to learn their language so of course they would understand what you're saying.


And, just to clarify, learning a foreign language through study or exposure in order to minister on the mission field is not the manifestation of kinds of tongues.

Speaking in tongues is worked out through the spirit (the gift of holy spirit each believer receives when he/she is born again).

When a person speaks in tongues, it is the spirit praying.

The ability of “gift/knack” for speaking foreign languages may be given by the Spirit, but one doesn’t need to be born again to have a gift for languages.

In agreement that some people are very conversant in languages and learning foreign languages comes easily to them.

Not in agreement that what you claim to be "a gift for languages" is the same as the manifestation of kinds of tongues.

Also not in agreement that "one doesn't need to be born again" in order for him/her to manifest kinds of tongues.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Sorry, this doctrine is not true, that all who are born again get the gift of speaking in tongues. There os mo single scripture proof for that.

Scripture does reprove reneweddaybyday stance that all believers will speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]29 [/SUP]Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?[SUP] 30 [/SUP]Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Paul posing that questions pretty much testify that not every saved believer will speak in tongues.

wolfwint and Enow,

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated what you claim.

I have always maintained that it is the Spirit Who energizes within the born again one to bring about the manifestation. As such, it is the Spirit Who determines what is needed at any given time when the manifestation is utilized, as well as the person within whom He will work.

 

[wolfwint]

wolfwint and Enow,

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated what you claim.

I have always maintained that it is the Spirit Who energizes within the born again one to bring about the manifestation. As such, it is the Spirit Who determines what is needed at any given time when the manifestation is utilized, as well as the person within whom He will work.

Dear Reneweddaybyday, first I have to apologize! I have misread your post 268, do did not say : that all who are born again get the gift of speaking in tongues. Please forgive me the wrong interpretation of your post! And have a blessed day.

Second, yesterday I wrote the same already, but the post which was also commentet from Enow has disapeared! And also Enows Post which he wrote disapeared.

I do not know why.

 

[FrankLee]

Lectures by unbelievers on the fine points of speaking in tongues, a gift which they deny, is ridiculous. Denominationalized is a sad state that reduces ptofessed believers into quoting Dr. Sim I. Nary rather than getting on their faces before God and praying over the Scriptures. Denial of the gifts of God does not cause them to waft away like a morning fog.

If any man be ignorant let him be ignorant. There are too many hungry souls out there to waste time trying to convince the naysayers that Jesus Christ really is the same yesterday, today and forever. Shake off the dust of your feet those of you that believe and receive and leave the argumentative to their own devices. They are clouds without water. Having not the spirit brother Jude said.

 

[wolfwint]

Lectures by unbelievers on the fine points of speaking in tongues, a gift which they deny, is ridiculous. Denominationalized is a sad state that reduces ptofessed believers into quoting Dr. Sim I. Nary rather than getting on their faces before God and praying over the Scriptures. Denial of the gifts of God does not cause them to waft away like a morning fog.

If any man be ignorant let him be ignorant. There are too many hungry souls out there to waste time trying to convince the naysayers that Jesus Christ really is the same yesterday, today and forever. Shake off the dust of your feet those of you that believe and receive and leave the argumentative to their own devices. They are clouds without water. Having not the spirit brother Jude said.

Who denys that Christ is the same? It wonders me only that the tonguespeakers arose with the teaching of the second baptism/ blessing with the Holy Spirit. And that many of them support false doctrines like the RCC ore oneness pentecostel,although they claim to got a special empoverment with the Holy Spirit who is teaching only the truth!
If they would teach that the speaking in tongues is a normal gift like all others too, I would understand it better. But they all teach speaking in tongues as a gift which received somebody when he got his second baptism with the Holy Spirit. This teaching was from beginning of the pentecostal movement and is also teaching from the charismatic movements. I met many christians from different countrys in my life, except some pentecostal from Nagapur/ India I met no one who speaks in tongues.
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit makes such differences among christians.

 

[Enow]

wolfwint and Enow,

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated what you claim.

I have always maintained that it is the Spirit Who energizes within the born again one to bring about the manifestation. As such, it is the Spirit Who determines what is needed at any given time when the manifestation is utilized, as well as the person within whom He will work.

Here is the quote that was easily misread and thus misunderstood by us below.

Speaking in tongues is worked out through the spirit (the gift of holy spirit each believer receives when he/she is born again).

You needed to clarify what you had stated because many tongue speakers interchanged the words gift of the Holy Spirit with the promise of the Holy Spirit ( I know the Bible does this too ) but when talking about the gift of tongues which is one of the gifts of the Spirit, it can be confusing to know what you are meaning. I am sure you know that some believes out there believes that every one has the gift of tongues; our brother, shrume, believes that every one has the ability to speak in tongues given at their salvation, and so your statement was easily misread as coming off in that way too.

I apologize also for misunderstanding your statement which technically, you needed to clarify because there was no point mentioning that in the parenthesis below which makes any reader thinks you are referring to the gift of speaking in tongues.

Speaking in tongues is worked out through the spirit (the gift of holy spirit each believer receives when he/she is born again).

When a person speaks in tongues, it is the spirit praying.

The problem with this is, all Bibles testify that the Holy Spirit cannot use tongues which is God speaking unto the people, to turn it around for His own personal means to utter His own intercessions by Himself.

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

It doesn't matter what Bible version you use, the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself or on His own authority or on His own accord or on His own initiative to speak His own words from Himself. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father & the Spirit of Christ, but cannot be the Spirit of the Spirit in speaking for as the Spirit of God.

That is why the KJV and a few others has the correct message in Romans 8:26-27 wherein the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings in giving His intercessions which means they are unspeakable and thus unutterable that Another needs t know the mind of the Spirit to give His unspeakable intercessions for Him to the Father which happens to be the will of God anyway because there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus at that throne of grace. ( 1 Timothy 2:5 )

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Some tongue speakers try to work around scripture by saying that it is their spirit that is praying in tongues and not the Holy Spirit, but by doing so, they only make their defense of using tongues privately that much harder to be accepted as coming from God.

 

[Enow]

Dear Reneweddaybyday, first I have to apologize! I have misread your post 268, do did not say : that all who are born again get the gift of speaking in tongues. Please forgive me the wrong interpretation of your post! And have a blessed day.

Second, yesterday I wrote the same already, but the post which was also commentet from Enow has disapeared! And also Enows Post which he wrote disapeared.

I do not know why.

Yesterday, when we came into the main chat forum lsiting all the different forums to go into besides Bible Discussions Forum, near the top in the heading, a warning in big red letters said something to the effect that we can post here but posts and threads may be deleted at the changing over of the server or something like that. Then it went away, but my notifications was stuck at 21 through out the whole day yesterday, but it finally register a different number, 23, today and it went down finally when reading some of those 21 out of the 23 notifications for today. There is no notification now so it is back to normal, I guess.

Anyway, that is what had happened to your post & mine yesterday.