Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

[feedm3]

I understand, feedbuddy, these are just your questions, and, , as I've said before to you, too, I appreciate your more compassionate approach to debate , but God, too, appreciates the way you've spoken much less easily angered to others in presenting your strong views, which I MOSTLY agree with, good buddy feedenem

New questions :

Did the spiritual gifts of prophecy, etc. begin in Acts 2 ?

Yes, with the exception of Christ, and those personally chosen by God in the OT.

Jesus promised the Apostles (Jn 14-16) the HS would come upon them and guide them into all truth.

In Acts 1, they did not fully understand Jesus' purpose, even after being with him so long:

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

What is the "promise of the Father" the Apostles were to wait in Jerasalem for? - It was the promise of the HS given to them in John 14 and 16. This was not a promise to all mankind, but limited to the Apostles.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

They thought Christ was here to literally take the kingdom of Israel from Rome's power, and restore back to Israel. They did not understand what kingdom Christ would restore, as many still do not today.


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

This "power" they were to receive was the HS, enabling them to speak with tounges, and understand all things, seen in Acts 2.

Acts chapter 2 is when this promise is fulfilled:

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

"Them" is still only referring to the Apostles.

This "power" came upon them, and they were filled with the Spirit, enabling speaking of Tounges etc.

This also fullfilled Joel 2, which said in these last days(of the law) God would "pour out his spirit upon all flesh" (All flesh meaning Jew and Gentile).14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

If Peter says "This is what was spoken by Joel", and it was them speaking in tounges and prophecying, then it must have started then on that day. Otherwise it would not have been the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-f.

What does the word 'truth' refer to in verse 7 of 1 Cor. 13?

Truth - Jesus Jn 14:6;
Spirit of truth - Holy Spirit - Jn 14:17

Holy Spirit guiding the writers of the NT, so we have the word of truth, unified, and able to make us perfect, because it is infallible perfect word of God.


If this is supposed to turn the context into speaking of Christ, the fore verse 13 must be Christ, I dont see the logic in that, seeing truth coming from Jesus would not change the neuter form "that" into Christ. It just doesnt work, and is against the context.

How does the Greek word for 'perfect, called 'telios' support your argument, Christ peeps?

It means "complete", and it supports the ceasing of the miraculous "till we all come to the unity of the faith" seeing that mean they were incomplete.

As Paul says, "in part". It all fits perfect (lol like my choice of words here?).

Why does 'the perfect come' mean completion of canon of Scripture? Why is this logical thought in the whole context of 1 Cor. 13. ?To me, it's not logical, unless you can show me where 'the perfect' specifically refers to Scripture being 'the perfect.'

Green that can be shown in several ways.

1. Only something that is perfect can make something else perfect:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works

If all scripture is profitable to make the man of God perfect, then the scripture itself must be perfect.

2. Where do we find the will of God so we can know?
Answer: The Bible:

If true then:
Rom 6:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

Would Paul capitalize 'perfect' referring to that word as Christ.

Dont see how this is relevent, seeing it is not capitalized. I not aware of any translations that do, but either way it is not in the Greek.

Are verses referred to as 'perfection' anywhere else in the bible?

Is Paul saying that ONLY with love (His Love given to us, NOT our own) can one excercise spiritual gifts? Read chapter 13:2, then, 14:1 , then 14:5, then 14:12. What word is the theme of these four verses?

Love is the theme. Yet Paul is telling a group of people who were wanting all the other gifts except love. They wanted the temporary (the "part" that will be "put away" when the church matures) instead of the eternal gift from God, love.

Thanks Green

 

[zone]

Yes, with the exception of Christ, and those personally chosen by God in the OT.

Jesus promised the Apostles (Jn 14-16) the HS would come upon them and guide them into all truth.

In Acts 1, they did not fully understand Jesus' purpose, even after being with him so long:

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

What is the "promise of the Father" the Apostles were to wait in Jerasalem for? - It was the promise of the HS given to them in John 14 and 16. This was not a promise to all mankind, but limited to the Apostles.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

They thought Christ was here to literally take the kingdom of Israel from Rome's power, and restore back to Israel. They did not understand what kingdom Christ would restore, as many still do not today.


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

This "power" they were to receive was the HS, enabling them to speak with tounges, and understand all things, seen in Acts 2.

Acts chapter 2 is when this promise is fulfilled:

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

"Them" is still only referring to the Apostles.

This "power" came upon them, and they were filled with the Spirit, enabling speaking of Tounges etc.

This also fullfilled Joel 2, which said in these last days(of the law) God would "pour out his spirit upon all flesh" (All flesh meaning Jew and Gentile).14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

If Peter says "This is what was spoken by Joel", and it was them speaking in tounges and prophecying, then it must have started then on that day. Otherwise it would not have been the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-f.

Truth - Jesus Jn 14:6;
Spirit of truth - Holy Spirit - Jn 14:17

Holy Spirit guiding the writers of the NT, so we have the word of truth, unified, and able to make us perfect, because it is infallible perfect word of God.


If this is supposed to turn the context into speaking of Christ, the fore verse 13 must be Christ, I dont see the logic in that, seeing truth coming from Jesus would not change the neuter form "that" into Christ. It just doesnt work, and is against the context.

It means "complete", and it supports the ceasing of the miraculous "till we all come to the unity of the faith" seeing that mean they were incomplete.

As Paul says, "in part". It all fits perfect (lol like my choice of words here?).

Green that can be shown in several ways.

1. Only something that is perfect can make something else perfect:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works

If all scripture is profitable to make the man of God perfect, then the scripture itself must be perfect.

2. Where do we find the will of God so we can know?
Answer: The Bible:

If true then:
Rom 6:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

Dont see how this is relevent, seeing it is not capitalized. I not aware of any translations that do, but either way it is not in the Greek.

Are verses referred to as 'perfection' anywhere else in the bible?

Love is the theme. Yet Paul is telling a group of people who were wanting all the other gifts except love. They wanted the temporary (the "part" that will be "put away" when the church matures) instead of the eternal gift from God, love.

Thanks Green[/SIZE]

 

[GreenNnice]

Yes, with the exception of Christ, and those personally chosen by God in the OT.

Jesus promised the Apostles (Jn 14-16) the HS would come upon them and guide them into all truth.

In Acts 1, they did not fully understand Jesus' purpose, even after being with him so long:

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

What is the "promise of the Father" the Apostles were to wait in Jerasalem for? - It was the promise of the HS given to them in John 14 and 16. This was not a promise to all mankind, but limited to the Apostles.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

They thought Christ was here to literally take the kingdom of Israel from Rome's power, and restore back to Israel. They did not understand what kingdom Christ would restore, as many still do not today.


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

This "power" they were to receive was the HS, enabling them to speak with tounges, and understand all things, seen in Acts 2.

Acts chapter 2 is when this promise is fulfilled:

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

"Them" is still only referring to the Apostles.

This "power" came upon them, and they were filled with the Spirit, enabling speaking of Tounges etc.

This also fullfilled Joel 2, which said in these last days(of the law) God would "pour out his spirit upon all flesh" (All flesh meaning Jew and Gentile).14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

If Peter says "This is what was spoken by Joel", and it was them speaking in tounges and prophecying, then it must have started then on that day. Otherwise it would not have been the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-f.

Truth - Jesus Jn 14:6;
Spirit of truth - Holy Spirit - Jn 14:17

Holy Spirit guiding the writers of the NT, so we have the word of truth, unified, and able to make us perfect, because it is infallible perfect word of God.


If this is supposed to turn the context into speaking of Christ, the fore verse 13 must be Christ, I dont see the logic in that, seeing truth coming from Jesus would not change the neuter form "that" into Christ. It just doesnt work, and is against the context.

It means "complete", and it supports the ceasing of the miraculous "till we all come to the unity of the faith" seeing that mean they were incomplete.

As Paul says, "in part". It all fits perfect (lol like my choice of words here?).

Green that can be shown in several ways.

1. Only something that is perfect can make something else perfect:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works

If all scripture is profitable to make the man of God perfect, then the scripture itself must be perfect.

2. Where do we find the will of God so we can know?
Answer: The Bible:

If true then:
Rom 6:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

Dont see how this is relevent, seeing it is not capitalized. I not aware of any translations that do, but either way it is not in the Greek.

Are verses referred to as 'perfection' anywhere else in the bible?

Love is the theme. Yet Paul is telling a group of people who were wanting all the other gifts except love. They wanted the temporary (the "part" that will be "put away" when the church matures) instead of the eternal gift from God, love.

Thanks Green

Power. His power. One must have faith in His power for ALL things or there is going to be an imperfect connect. This is not to judge, this is just to say, that God's power is at work today, I am sorry that some cannot see it, it is still there .

thank you for your words, blessings, Christ bro .

 

[feedm3]

Same to you Green, I always Appreciate your posts.....one thing is for sure, we are all imperfect, all we can do is study and pray and thank God he did not leave us with nothing.

 

[megaman125]

The reason cessationists aren't seeing the gifts in action is because they spend more time believing that the gifts have ceased, instead of believing that the Holy Spirit can still do those things through them. Faith is the lightswitch that activates the gifts, so if they have no faith in that area, it makes sense that they aren't seeing it.

There's no biblical reason to believe the gifts have ceased, unless you also believe the God has stopped giving people the gift that is the Holy Spirit, since that's where the gifts come from, the Holy Spirit.

 

[GreenNnice]

feedm3 is correct in that the word 'perfect' means "complete, full of age, mature"; however, it is not talking about the canon of scripture. The phrase "that which is perfect" in verse 10 has to be interpreted in view of verses 8-12. It is talking about "mature understanding" - and the point in time when it reaches its "full maturity" - "which just happens to be" at the second coming of Christ. It is not talking about Christ Himself.

Verses 9-12 are an "aside" to verse 8 - and have nothing whatsoever [directly] to do with "spiritual gifts" - and it is [highly] focused on the understanding we have 'now' versus 'then':

The phrase 'we know in part' in verse 9 is referring to what we now know ('understand') by "experience"...

The phrase 'we prophesy in part' in verse 9 is referring to what we now know ('understand') by "faith"...

Verse 10:

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

(At this point you should keep in mind that both 'we know' and 'we prophesy' are "in part"...)

'when that which is perfect is come' => "when we have 'full' and 'complete' understanding"

'that which is in part shall be done away' => "there will be no need of [the other]"

Verse 11 is an illustration about "full [mature] understanding" (and should be fairly self-explanatory).

Verse 12:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

The word 'glass' in this verse is not referring to "window pane glass", but rather, a mirror.

For reference:

For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: ~ James 1:23

The first part of verse 12 is comparing "a dimly seen reflection" (a [not-so-clearly-seen] face in a mirror) to "the real thing" (actual 'face to face' - very clearly seen).

'For now we see through a glass, darkly' => "for now, we can only see a dim reflection"

'but then face to face' => "but then, we will be able to truly understand"

'now I know in part' => "now I have a 'limited' understanding"

'but then shall I know even as also I am known' => "then I will have a 'full', 'complete', and 'clear' understanding"

Now - for a moment - go back to verse 8:

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

'whether there be prophecies, they shall fail'

This is not talking about "prophecy not coming true" - but rather, that [prophecy itself] will "go away" because it will be no longer needed (or meaningful) - then.

'whether there be tongues, they shall cease'

In like fashion - "tongues" will "go away" because it will be no longer needed (or meaningful) - then.

'whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away'

In like fashion - "the present knowledge" will "go away" because it will be no longer needed (or meaningful) - then.

Love (Charity), however, will continue 'forever'...

(while [the current / present] 'prophecies', 'tongues', and 'knowledge' will not)

Now - go to verse 13:

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

The word 'abideth' in this verse means "to remain" or "to endure"...

This verse is saying, in part, that 'faith', 'hope', and 'charity' are the [current / present] things that "remain and endure"- even until then.

This whole passage (chapter 13) is saying - in effect:

"Keep your focus on Love (Charity) - because it is what will endure ([the other stuff] will not) - and without it [the other stuff] is essentially meaningless - and it is the greatest thing (in all of this) that you should strive for, above all else - because it exists / operates / works { and endures } above all else."



.

For organized thought-which I agree with---it's excellently well emphasized and versed, g.r.a.

 

[peterT]

Instead of nit piking and of looking for little bits of scripture to disprove faith, we should be looking for scripture to improve are faith which believeth all things, and hopeth all things.

We say we believe in Jesus, and the word, and the Holy Ghost, and the world to come, which are all invisible.
Why not stretch your faith and believe all that Jesus said which is invisible, like all things are possible to him that believes, and nothing shall be impossible unto you. and that faith as a mustard seed can remove mountains into the sea. And believeth all things, and hopeth all things..

For without faith it is impossible to please him.

The standard was already set in the Bible with prophets and gifs why not believe as they did, it just takes a little faith in the invisible, and faith comes by hearing the word.

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D… this title says it all for some Christians O ye of little faith.

The only thing dead should be the old man in us and the lack of faith that the unbelievers have in the invisible.

Just because God is sometimes is quiet doesn’t mean He’s going to be quiet forever.

Do you think that God will live you in great tribulation without gifs? Maybe He will if you have no faith.

God is in the business of rising up the stranded.

Isaiah 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

 

[feedm3]

The reason cessationists aren't seeing the gifts in action is because they spend more time believing that the gifts have ceased, instead of believing that the Holy Spirit can still do those things through them. Faith is the lightswitch that activates the gifts, so if they have no faith in that area, it makes sense that they aren't seeing it.

There's no biblical reason to believe the gifts have ceased, unless you also believe the God has stopped giving people the gift that is the Holy Spirit, since that's where the gifts come from, the Holy Spirit.

Not about what God can or cant do, he can do what he wills. As for speaking in tongues etc, they were for a purpose, I dont know of any missionaries that dont have to study a language before they go into another country.

I believe in the providence of God, If I am sick, I pray to get well. As for someone laying their hands on me and healing me, again, dont believe it. The ceasing of miracles is biblical, and does not deny God's power or the Holy Spirit.

 

[cfultz3]

If faith can move moutains, how much more can the Spirit work His gifts through us.

 

[zone]

Not about what God can or cant do, he can do what he wills. As for speaking in tongues etc, they were for a purpose, I dont know of any missionaries that dont have to study a language before they go into another country.

I believe in the providence of God, If I am sick, I pray to get well. As for someone laying their hands on me and healing me, again, dont believe it. The ceasing of miracles is biblical, and does not deny God's power or the Holy Spirit.

feedm3,
this is simplicity in Christ Jesus.
ty.
zone

 

[zone]

If faith can move moutains, how much more can the Spirit work His gifts through us.

hi cfultz,
the (this) mountain Jesus was talking about to the disciples was apostate national israel.
love zone.

 

[cfultz3]

hi cfultz,
the (this) mountain Jesus was talking about to the disciples was apostate national israel.
love zone.

yeah of course

 

[megaman125]

Not about what God can or cant do, he can do what he wills.

God doesn't change. To claim that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased while claiming that God is still giving out the Holy Spirit is to say that God has changed. All the gifts come from the same spirit.

As for speaking in tongues etc, they were for a purpose, I dont know of any missionaries that dont have to study a language before they go into another country.

No one ever claimed the gift of speaking in tongues is a substitution for studying another language. And I do know of missionaries that went to another country, spoke in tongues, and the people there understood what the missionaries were saying, but the missionaries themselves didn't understand, so the native people repeated the message back to them, thus verifying the gift of tongues.

I believe in the providence of God, If I am sick, I pray to get well.

Funny, that's not really biblical. In fact, Jesus never prayed for the sick.

As for someone laying their hands on me and healing me, again, dont believe it.

There's no biblical basis for your unbelief. I've seen and heard of cases for the laying on of hands.

The ceasing of miracles is biblical, and does not deny God's power or the Holy Spirit.

Ceasing of miracles is not biblical. If that were so, how do you account for the many miracles that do happen in Christians' lives today?

And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.
Mark 16:20

I find nothing saying that God changed his mind and stopped the accompanying signs. Heck, if ceassation was true, then I wouldn't be a Christian today, I'd still be demon-possessed.

 

[GreenNnice]

God doesn't change. To claim that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased while claiming that God is still giving out the Holy Spirit is to say that God has changed. All the gifts come from the same spirit.



No one ever claimed the gift of speaking in tongues is a substitution for studying another language. And I do know of missionaries that went to another country, spoke in tongues, and the people there understood what the missionaries were saying, but the missionaries themselves didn't understand, so the native people repeated the message back to them, thus verifying the gift of tongues.



Funny, that's not really biblical. In fact, Jesus never prayed for the sick.



There's no biblical basis for your unbelief. I've seen and heard of cases for the laying on of hands.



Ceasing of miracles is not biblical. If that were so, how do you account for the many miracles that do happen in Christians' lives today?

And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.
Mark 16:20

I find nothing saying that God changed his mind and stopped the accompanying signs. Heck, if ceassation was true, then I wouldn't be a Christian today, I'd still be demon-possessed.

What we maybe need to consider, for cessationists to tell why they believe the spiritual gifts are dead.

WHAT benefit is there to the 'gifts' having died at the turn of the 2nd century, or 3rd century, or whatever, whenever they officially stopped ?

This is an odd thing to say in my opinion...

Because the holy canon of Scripture was written, the spiritual gifts were no longer necessary.

Do you see the disconnect in that thought ????

Spiritual gifts heal people, and, God is in the healing business, in the miracle business, I mean, afterall He is God. I know, know, cessasionists think that Scripture heals and all you need is your bible to know it all.

Hmmm, why was the Holy Spirit given to us then after Jesus died?

Trying to further along some ideas is all, blessings, Christ peeps

 

[megaman125]

What we maybe need to consider, for cessationists to tell why they believe the spiritual gifts are dead.

WHAT benefit is there to the 'gifts' having died at the turn of the 2nd century, or 3rd century, or whatever, whenever they officially stopped ?

This is an odd thing to say in my opinion...

Because the holy canon of Scripture was written, the spiritual gifts were no longer necessary.

Do you see the disconnect in that thought ????

You mean like the fact that they had Scripture and they had it written down, they just didn't have it all compiled into the Bible?

Spiritual gifts heal people, and, God is in the healing business, in the miracle business, I mean, afterall He is God. I know, know, cessasionists think that Scripture heals and all you need is your bible to know it all.

Well, I know somewhere in Proverbs where it states that God's Word is healing to the flesh, and I've heard of people that were healed just by reading the Bible daily.

And yes, God is in the healing business. God healed in the Old Covenant too, and the New Covenant is supposed to be superior to the Old, therefore, healing must be in the New Covenant as well, or else one could make a case that the New Covenant isn't all that superior to the Old. And if we're still living under the New Covenant...

 

[feedm3]

God doesn't change. To claim that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased while claiming that God is still giving out the Holy Spirit is to say that God has changed. All the gifts come from the same spirit.

If God decides to make something temporary, that does not demand that he changed. The Law of Moses was temporary, yet God is still the same.

The miraculous gifts are said to cease, I cor 13, and also the Bible tells us their purpose: "to confirm the word".

As I said, I believe in the providence of God, this means God's still does things, but as for tongues, special knowledge, prophesy, etc, they were for a purpose, until another purpose, just as the law was and now is not.

No one ever claimed the gift of speaking in tongues is a substitution for studying another language. And I do know of missionaries that went to another country, spoke in tongues, and the people there understood what the missionaries were saying, but the missionaries themselves didn't understand, so the native people repeated the message back to them, thus verifying the gift of tongues.

Maybe, maybe not. Someone always knows someone, yet that does not confirm anything.

No offense, but I would rather prove what's right from scripture, not from peoples accounts, people cannot be trusted enough for me to base my beliefs on what they say, verses what I read.

Funny, that's not really biblical. In fact, Jesus never prayed for the sick.

Dont get what your saying here. Your saying praying for the sick is not Biblical?
Jesus did not do alot of things, does that mean we are to throw out prayer for the sick?

Never prayed for a sick person?

There's no biblical basis for your unbelief. I've seen and heard of cases for the laying on of hands.

Sense you keep accusing me of in-Biblical belief, without even really hearing me out. Lets go to the Bible with your claim.

So let me ask you this:
1. Why in Acts 8 did the Samaritans need John and Peter to come down and lay their hands on them?
2. Sense Philip could perform Miracles, as seen in Acts 8, why didnt he just lay his hands on them?
3. If it was because he was not an Apostle, then that implies the Apostles could only lay hands, where are they now?

Here is the text:
Act 8:5 Then Philip (not the apostle, the deacon 6:5)
went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

Philip must have had the Holy Spirit in order to do these things

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Yet they did not start speaking in tounges or any of the other gifts - why?

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

why send them?

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

They believed, were baptized, Philip had the Holy Spirit, what was the problem then?

Why did not Philip impart the Holy Spirit? OR why did the HS just not fall on them like many claim He does now? What do they have that the Samaritans did not?

Act 8:17 Then laid they("they" the Apostles) their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

So the HS did not come when the believed, or when baptized. Philip who did have the HS could not impart him to them in a miraculous sense.

Only an apostle could do this, just as in Acts 19.

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Even Simon understood the HS was only given through the laying on of the Apostles hands

Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

1. Why in Acts 8 did the Samaritans need John and Peter to come down and lay their hands on them?
2. Sense Philip could perform Miracles, as seen in Acts 8, why didnt he just lay his hands on them?
3. If it was because he was not an Apostle, then that implies the Apostles could only lay hands, where are they now?

Ceasing of miracles is not biblical. If that were so, how do you account for the many miracles that do happen in Christians' lives today?

If you mean the supernatural, which is the meaning of miracle, what miracles? You mean the televangelist charging money to heal? Or just random people's testimoies?

I get what I believe from scripture, not what people say they did, or who they know, that is not biblical.

I Cor 13 shows these gifts were to cease while love continued. It would do you good to deal with that, rather than "I Know someone", "what about the all the people who say..." etc.

And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.
Mark 16:20

Yes, again as I said above, showing their purpose, to confirm the word. Yet if I did believe what you do, I wouldn't go there to prove my point, there are many parallel passages you can use, after Mark 8 - there are alot of older MSS lacking this portion. Just saying. Still it shows the purpose they served.

I find nothing saying that God changed his mind and stopped the accompanying signs. Heck, if ceassation was true, then I wouldn't be a Christian today, I'd still be demon-possessed.

I dont know about that man, that's another one I dont believe still happens, as Miracles ceased, so the Satan's power to possess, he is "bound" now, in that sense, just as Jesus said he was here to do. "bind the strong man and spoil his house".

Please dont think I am calling you a liar or anything. I know we can in some sense be possessed by Satan, through living in sin and such, but as for the inhabiting of the body as in the gospels, throwing people into fire, and talking through us, that is another area that has ceased.

The gospel of John was written after the rest, probably during a time the Bible was coming to a completion, and the last Apostle (the only one who could impart this gift to others) near death:

He wrote, "and many other signs did Jesus do....but these are WRITTEN that you might believe...". - Jn 20:31
He did not say these are being done, but written, we read about them now, just as we read about the Red Sea splitting. Yet I dont expect to be able to do that, but I know it was done.

The Apostles and Cornelius were baptized with the Holy Spirit. No one layed their hands on them, the HS fell upon them. Acts 2 (the Apostles-Jews) Acts 10 (Cornelius-Gentiles). This showed God choose the Jews and the Gentiles, by pouring out his Spirit upon them.

This has not been done to anyone else in scripture as far as I know, But the rest had to have the Apostles lay their hands on them, like in Acts 8 and 19.

If you are aware of some passages I may be missing, when someone in scripture is baptized with HS, and without an Apostle present to lay their hands upon them, then please show me. I would love to study them, I do give honest looks at both sides of an argument.

Thanks.

 

[GreenNnice]

[/color][/b]

You mean like the fact that they had Scripture and they had it written down, they just didn't have it all compiled into the Bible?



Well, I know somewhere in Proverbs where it states that God's Word is healing to the flesh, and I've heard of people that were healed just by reading the Bible daily.

And yes, God is in the healing business. God healed in the Old Covenant too, and the New Covenant is supposed to be superior to the Old, therefore, healing must be in the New Covenant as well, or else one could make a case that the New Covenant isn't all that superior to the Old. And if we're still living under the New Covenant...

I don't know is my answer to the first question, meg, and, the 2nd question is not any answers either, I am exhausted I guess this means, I am going to sleep, God bless your work for Him, Christ bro

 

[megaman125]

Sense you keep accusing me of in-Biblical belief, without even really hearing me out. Lets go to the Bible with your claim.

So let me ask you this:
1. Why in Acts 8 did the Samaritans need John and Peter to come down and lay their hands on them?
2. Sense Philip could perform Miracles, as seen in Acts 8, why didnt he just lay his hands on them?
3. If it was because he was not an Apostle, then that implies the Apostles could only lay hands, where are they now?

Here is the text:
Act 8:5 Then Philip (not the apostle, the deacon 6:5)
went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

Philip must have had the Holy Spirit in order to do these things

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Yet they did not start speaking in tounges or any of the other gifts - why?

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

why send them?

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

They believed, were baptized, Philip had the Holy Spirit, what was the problem then?

Why did not Philip impart the Holy Spirit? OR why did the HS just not fall on them like many claim He does now? What do they have that the Samaritans did not?

Act 8:17 Then laid they("they" the Apostles) their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

So the HS did not come when the believed, or when baptized. Philip who did have the HS could not impart him to them in a miraculous sense.

Only an apostle could do this, just as in Acts 19.

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given,he offered them money,

Even Simon understood the HS was only given through the laying on of the Apostles hands

Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

So, you're completely ruling out the possibility that the Holy Spirit didn't fall on those people because maybe Phillip was also fairly new to this Holy Spirit stuff as well, and just didn't know to lay hands on people to impart the Holy Spirit to them?

I also don't see how any of this proves ceassationism.

If you mean the supernatural, which is the meaning of miracle, what miracles? You mean the televangelist charging money to heal? Or just random people's testimoies?

I have myself experience and have had friends experience the healing power of God. For instance, a person burned his hand in a fire several years ago. The doctor told him he'd never have feeling in his right hand again due to the nerve damage. Immediately after hands were laid on him, and using Jesus' name, he had feeling in his hand again. I'm not about to say he's faking it just to try and justify unbelief. His healing doesn't contradict scripture, unless you're trying to say that God isn't a healer.

I Cor 13 shows these gifts were to cease while love continued. It would do you good to deal with that, rather than "I Know someone", "what about the all the people who say..." etc.

The gifts don't cease until perfection returns. Last I checked, perfection (Jesus) hasn't returned yet.

Once again, you verify what I said at the start of this. You're not seeing it happen for yourself because a) you block out anything and everything other Christians say about it, and b) you spend more time believing the gifts have ceased than believing you have them.

Why is it that Jesus couldn't perform many miracles when he went back to Nazareth? It was because of the people's unbelief, and nothing more. (Matthew 13:58)

I dont know about that man, that's another one I dont believe still happens, as Miracles ceased, so the Satan's power to possess, he is "bound" now, in that sense, just as Jesus said he was here to do. "bind the strong man and spoil his house".

I had hands laid on my and an evil spirit cast out of me, and I completely changed as a person overnight. That is nothing short of a miracle. But if what you're proposing is true, everything contradictory to your proposal, including my personal testimony, would be false.

He did not say these are being done, but written, we read about them now, just as we read about the Red Sea splitting. Yet I dont expect to be able to do that, but I know it was done.

Exactly, you don't expect to be able to do that. That's why you laying your hands on the sick probably wouldn't do anything, because of your unbelief. Once again, Matthew 13:58. Mark 16:17-18 says those signs will follow ALL who believe, not just apostles.

The Apostles and Cornelius were baptized with the Holy Spirit. No one layed their hands on them, the HS fell upon them. Acts 2 (the Apostles-Jews) Acts 10 (Cornelius-Gentiles). This showed God choose the Jews and the Gentiles, by pouring out his Spirit upon them.

If you are aware of some passages I may be missing, when someone in scripture is baptized with HS, and without an Apostle present to lay their hands upon them, then please show me. I would love to study them, I do give honest looks at both sides of an argument.

You already mentioned that for yourself, in Acts 2 and Acts 10. Why would it take more instances for you to believe it?

Like I said, I have no reason to believe the gifts have ceased, especially given the evidence to the contrary.

 

[zone]

What we maybe need to consider, for cessationists to tell why they believe the spiritual gifts are dead.

hi greenest

Re: Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

dead? that's not a term cessationists use.

here's some info (there's lots more):

Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource < click

love zone.

 

[GreenNnice]

hi greenest

Re: Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

dead? that's not a term cessationists use.

here's some info (there's lots more):

Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource < click

love zone.

OK, if not 'dead' than what did they become 'ceased,' 'desisted,' aren't they still 'dead'?

You see, ohzone, the problem with spiritual gifts anything but alive is that they are dead.

You know the saying, 'Faith without works is dead,' same thing, by 'dead,' it's meant they are not doing anything fruitful. Does this make sense? We are not talking of someone going to hell because they don't do works with faith. 'Course, those in Him, KNOW they are CREATED to do good works and labour beside the Lord, who is their genuine master but friend too since, though in control, He asks us to come right beside Him and be as one.

Note: I made a rule not to post commentary but you can now but like ohzone graciously did, can you please not litter your post with some long commentary, do it as a LINK , thanks