Stupid things 'Christians' do
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S
Tell ya what, Forth. I'm here if you want to say anything or rebut anything. I'll hear ya out. I'm listening. But otherwise, I believe this is headed nowhere and lets just keep our own goofball quotient low. I believe that you have dealt fairly with me in what is a charge environment, with long standing patterns and I appreciate it. God Bless.
There is a lot here so I will just try to address your question. "Why doesn't the wrong believing produce wrong living?"
This again goes back to political correctness and post modern relativism that has saturated the church in the postmodern age. Misunderstandings on good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, holiness and unholiness. To paraphrase Voddie Baucham, "We look at the little old lady down the street and we don't think twice about witnessing to her because she is jsut a nice little old lady that loves and treats everyone nice. We don't look at ourselves as sinners either. We look at the murderer or the rapist on T.V. and that is the sinner. I could never be like that".
Modern Christians have forgot what holiness means. To be set apart. Somehow everything has flipped and been reversed. All of a sudden it's wrong to point out people as biblically instructed who are purposefully perverting the Gospel and the scriptures, who are purposefully fleecing people for every cent, who are purposefully pronouncing healing over poor desperate people who die from terminal illnesses thinking they are repaired. It has become evil to point them out. It has become evil to defend the faith given to us by Christ through the teachings of him and the Apostles.
It has becoming loving to let these people continue unchecked because, after all, they are "brothers" because they claim to be Christians. They are doing the Lord's work and this is good, leave them alone. They blaspheme the Holy Name of God, but that's okay, we're all sinners. They corrupt and pervert the Gospel, but don't you dare say anything against them or you are accused of being an unloving religious demon possessed antichrist. God forbid these men and women be called out for their blatant disregard for the people of God and the Holy Word.
The reason we don't see "wrong believing resulting in wrong living" is because people can no longer distinguish right from wrong as it pertains to the Christian worldview. We have become a people of all inclusiveness, anything goes as long as they claim to be Christian. Our God given right to reject them based on their actions has been stripped from us in the name of political correctness and relativism. We are all sinners. Not just the murderer or rapist, but even the little old lady down the street who never hurt a fly. Sin is a condition of the heart, not an outward appearance, but when it comes to identifying, marking, and calling out heretics who blatantly malign Christ, the Father, and Holy Spirit, we have clear instructions. We aren't condemning them to hell, they are condemned by their own words as they boastfully blaspheme the name of God.
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
I hope this answered your question sufficiently.
This again goes back to political correctness and post modern relativism that has saturated the church in the postmodern age. Misunderstandings on good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, holiness and unholiness. To paraphrase Voddie Baucham, "We look at the little old lady down the street and we don't think twice about witnessing to her because she is jsut a nice little old lady that loves and treats everyone nice. We don't look at ourselves as sinners either. We look at the murderer or the rapist on T.V. and that is the sinner. I could never be like that".
Modern Christians have forgot what holiness means. To be set apart. Somehow everything has flipped and been reversed. All of a sudden it's wrong to point out people as biblically instructed who are purposefully perverting the Gospel and the scriptures, who are purposefully fleecing people for every cent, who are purposefully pronouncing healing over poor desperate people who die from terminal illnesses thinking they are repaired. It has become evil to point them out. It has become evil to defend the faith given to us by Christ through the teachings of him and the Apostles.
It has becoming loving to let these people continue unchecked because, after all, they are "brothers" because they claim to be Christians. They are doing the Lord's work and this is good, leave them alone. They blaspheme the Holy Name of God, but that's okay, we're all sinners. They corrupt and pervert the Gospel, but don't you dare say anything against them or you are accused of being an unloving religious demon possessed antichrist. God forbid these men and women be called out for their blatant disregard for the people of God and the Holy Word.
The reason we don't see "wrong believing resulting in wrong living" is because people can no longer distinguish right from wrong as it pertains to the Christian worldview. We have become a people of all inclusiveness, anything goes as long as they claim to be Christian. Our God given right to reject them based on their actions has been stripped from us in the name of political correctness and relativism. We are all sinners. Not just the murderer or rapist, but even the little old lady down the street who never hurt a fly. Sin is a condition of the heart, not an outward appearance, but when it comes to identifying, marking, and calling out heretics who blatantly malign Christ, the Father, and Holy Spirit, we have clear instructions. We aren't condemning them to hell, they are condemned by their own words as they boastfully blaspheme the name of God.
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
I hope this answered your question sufficiently.
To go a bit further, we're all sinners man. No one is disputing that. Even an alcoholic can go through AA and quit drinking. A drug addict can get off drugs through family support and NA. Does this make them any less of a sinner? We don't judge by outward appearances and are commanded not to. We don't recognize the utter desperation we are in for God and many people here don't recognize the sheer depravity they suffer from. Outward appearance is not how make make right judgments, but when it comes to "Christians" directly defying scripture with their doctrines and teachings, we can confidently say that they are "living wrong for believing wrong". We can rightly call it evil. We can rightly say that they don't know God, nor Christ.
S
I'd be lying if I said that it did and I respect and appreciate you too much to do that. I genuinely appreciate this effort and all previous ones. Like with HRFTD and PJ. I do understand you guy's position and respect it. I don't know all the previous history. Yeah, I lurked, but that really isn't the same as participating. Not even close! 
I honestly think that both sides mischaracterizes the other somewhat. At this point, it seems to go on unconsciously. I wanted to be friends with everyone, but I am often naïve and idealistic. I respect everyone for the dedication and energies expended in defending what is worth defending.
Maybe the BDF is not for me? Maybe I just need to select threads more carefully? But I do not regret stepping in here for my first big thread. Cannot imagine a better 'basic training' opportunity. I've already got a little 'snappy' myself with people. Not like that comes difficult to me.
Let me just ask everyone to keep Lost_Sheep in their prayers. Thanks all.
I honestly think that both sides mischaracterizes the other somewhat. At this point, it seems to go on unconsciously. I wanted to be friends with everyone, but I am often naïve and idealistic. I respect everyone for the dedication and energies expended in defending what is worth defending.
Maybe the BDF is not for me? Maybe I just need to select threads more carefully? But I do not regret stepping in here for my first big thread. Cannot imagine a better 'basic training' opportunity. I've already got a little 'snappy' myself with people. Not like that comes difficult to me.
Let me just ask everyone to keep Lost_Sheep in their prayers. Thanks all.
S
I know. I mean I know some absolute non-Christians that behave better than some Christians. No question. It befuddles me. And some of the time, I are wonna those not so good behaving Christians.
People ask me "what I have to do to go to Hell?" I tell them... "absolutely nothing." Just live to the age of accountability and its a cinch. In fact doing nothing is the best way to ensure you get there!
Never seems like that was the answer that they were looking for.
In Him, bro.
[edit: added]
People ask me "what I have to do to go to Hell?" I tell them... "absolutely nothing." Just live to the age of accountability and its a cinch. In fact doing nothing is the best way to ensure you get there!
Never seems like that was the answer that they were looking for.
In Him, bro.
[edit: added]
Last edited by a moderator:
C
I'd watch out with that. Jesus said: Look at the fruit. The father of Corrie ten Boom believed that it was God's will if they were sick. Wrong. Yet he gave his life to save the Jews.
Some are obvious false teachers, others have some false teachings, most I don't judge about. It's very hard to say who is who in the zoo and those that take a big broad brush I don't find trustworthy heresy hunters, I rather stick to God. Steve Hill had a good warning about hypergrace: spiritual avalanche.
Most teachers can't say this one is good, this one is not good and be correct about it, since there is no unity and One New Man in Christ who can perfectly discern.
Some are obvious false teachers, others have some false teachings, most I don't judge about. It's very hard to say who is who in the zoo and those that take a big broad brush I don't find trustworthy heresy hunters, I rather stick to God. Steve Hill had a good warning about hypergrace: spiritual avalanche.
Most teachers can't say this one is good, this one is not good and be correct about it, since there is no unity and One New Man in Christ who can perfectly discern.
Christians have the ability to discern truth from falsehood. It's part of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
John 16
[SUP]13 [/SUP]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
There is a good chance that those who can't discern the truth are devoid of the Spirit of God since that is His ministry.
It's really not that hard to judge the difference in false and true based on a proper understanding of scripture. Anyone who wants to know the truth will seek it out diligently and find it and will not remain in error. They will search the scriptures and do their research, weighing everything against scripture to make sure it is so. They will follow the roots of the movements they belong to and the movements others belong to and find their roots.
If someone really wants to know God, they will seek him and find him. If not, they will continue in their error and inability to divide right from wrong and truth from lies. Not everyone who says they are a Christian is a Christian. Not everyone who comes in the name of Christ belongs to his fold. Not everyone who says to him Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom.
This is not a game we play. It's our eternal lives on the line. Wide is the way to destruction and many there be who go therein. Anyone who wants to know God will not be carried away by every wind that blows them or every wave that comes along and tosses them. There is a narrow path and a wide path. Those who suppress the truth are in danger of eternal damnation.
John 16
[SUP]13 [/SUP]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
There is a good chance that those who can't discern the truth are devoid of the Spirit of God since that is His ministry.
It's really not that hard to judge the difference in false and true based on a proper understanding of scripture. Anyone who wants to know the truth will seek it out diligently and find it and will not remain in error. They will search the scriptures and do their research, weighing everything against scripture to make sure it is so. They will follow the roots of the movements they belong to and the movements others belong to and find their roots.
If someone really wants to know God, they will seek him and find him. If not, they will continue in their error and inability to divide right from wrong and truth from lies. Not everyone who says they are a Christian is a Christian. Not everyone who comes in the name of Christ belongs to his fold. Not everyone who says to him Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom.
This is not a game we play. It's our eternal lives on the line. Wide is the way to destruction and many there be who go therein. Anyone who wants to know God will not be carried away by every wind that blows them or every wave that comes along and tosses them. There is a narrow path and a wide path. Those who suppress the truth are in danger of eternal damnation.
E
SECOND TIME AROUND
So, if the hyper grace crowd believes that they can live any type lifestyle that they desire and still not go to hell for it then where is your evidence? You accuse Willie-T, Grace 777x70, ember, PennED, coby and others of believing this. And that if people believe this then they cannot but help live immoral, sin-filled, "live for the devil" lives then are you prepared to make a 'BIBLICAL' charge/accusation against any of them, right here, right now? If not, why not? According to your theory they should be unable to restrain themselves given their horrible belief system.
So either their belief in this causes them to sin prodigiously, and at will, or you need to explain to me why believing this way is not producing the expected results in their lives that you claim is the sole motivation for all these warnings. Are you prepared to make the accusation that their fruit is bad?
***************************
Hi second
What he is prepared to do, is falsify conversations...blatantly lie and accuse ....doing the devils work for him
Hyper grace appears to be a catch all phrase he and a few others are using to smear good people and mock...that us all this thread was created for
We have been accused of continuing to sin...the sin is the mockery and the false charge of sinning
It appears that, for these folks, the end justifies the means
It appears they think ALL grace is hyper as no one that I know of in these forums continues in sin
The entire arguement is ridiculous and without it, they would have to go find some other cause to justify what seems to be taking delight in smearing people and mocking
If you have read posts by one person in particular, you see how he addresses posters as Dear Reader and the like and then says I'm dangerous and many other such smears
Its disgusting frankly, and we are praying that this type of ugly behavior....referred to as bullying even in secular forums, is stopped
There is no truth to the accusations...he has actually stated that God told him to go after me and has made derogatory comments about my personal life
NONE of that is Christian behavior and certainly does not exhibit the 'fruit' of the Holy Spirit
I honestly do not know why this individual has singled me out...I was away from the boards for almost 2 months..I came back and he began his ranting
The only thing I can figure is that I must have slighted his opinion and disagreed somewhere and he cannot have that it seems as he is just as nasty to other people you have mentionned but seems ti have a particular fondness for trying to smear me
It may be because I am a woman...some men cannot stand the thought of a woman not bowing to them...he seems to be if that nature
This thread is a disgrace and in any other forum that is moderated, would have been shut down by the 2nd or 3rd page because it serves no purpose and Jesus is not glorified
No one here thinks the bizarre actions displayed in the videos are a good practice
To sum it up, as someone seems to think they are on a crusade with God, there is no reasoning with them and lies are the arrows they aim
..but God knows
So, if the hyper grace crowd believes that they can live any type lifestyle that they desire and still not go to hell for it then where is your evidence? You accuse Willie-T, Grace 777x70, ember, PennED, coby and others of believing this. And that if people believe this then they cannot but help live immoral, sin-filled, "live for the devil" lives then are you prepared to make a 'BIBLICAL' charge/accusation against any of them, right here, right now? If not, why not? According to your theory they should be unable to restrain themselves given their horrible belief system.
So either their belief in this causes them to sin prodigiously, and at will, or you need to explain to me why believing this way is not producing the expected results in their lives that you claim is the sole motivation for all these warnings. Are you prepared to make the accusation that their fruit is bad?
***************************
Hi second
What he is prepared to do, is falsify conversations...blatantly lie and accuse ....doing the devils work for him
Hyper grace appears to be a catch all phrase he and a few others are using to smear good people and mock...that us all this thread was created for
We have been accused of continuing to sin...the sin is the mockery and the false charge of sinning
It appears that, for these folks, the end justifies the means
It appears they think ALL grace is hyper as no one that I know of in these forums continues in sin
The entire arguement is ridiculous and without it, they would have to go find some other cause to justify what seems to be taking delight in smearing people and mocking
If you have read posts by one person in particular, you see how he addresses posters as Dear Reader and the like and then says I'm dangerous and many other such smears
Its disgusting frankly, and we are praying that this type of ugly behavior....referred to as bullying even in secular forums, is stopped
There is no truth to the accusations...he has actually stated that God told him to go after me and has made derogatory comments about my personal life
NONE of that is Christian behavior and certainly does not exhibit the 'fruit' of the Holy Spirit
I honestly do not know why this individual has singled me out...I was away from the boards for almost 2 months..I came back and he began his ranting
The only thing I can figure is that I must have slighted his opinion and disagreed somewhere and he cannot have that it seems as he is just as nasty to other people you have mentionned but seems ti have a particular fondness for trying to smear me
It may be because I am a woman...some men cannot stand the thought of a woman not bowing to them...he seems to be if that nature
This thread is a disgrace and in any other forum that is moderated, would have been shut down by the 2nd or 3rd page because it serves no purpose and Jesus is not glorified
No one here thinks the bizarre actions displayed in the videos are a good practice
To sum it up, as someone seems to think they are on a crusade with God, there is no reasoning with them and lies are the arrows they aim
..but God knows
I do not accuse anyone of living a particular way. I do not accuse anyone of believing anything other than what they claim.
Grace7x77 is the only one who really supports hyper-grace, based on his contributions.
Now what we are talking about here is theology, and the consequences that flow from this. People vary vastly how they practice their faith from what they might say they believe. For instance someone may say they are not aware of sin, but only of good things, yet repent, confess and ask forgiveness for things they do everyday. So they are not following the theology, but a practice of life that comes from a different set of ideas.
The group you are talking about except Coby, have seen any contribution as an attack against them, but rather it is just talking about beliefs and where they lead.
So when you ask me about evidence, I would say you just need to look at the statements made by the core leaders of these theologies, what they do and how they behave.
Whenever people talk about their lifestyle, what I am told constantly is how they cannot go a day without sinning.
I am not the one testifying or accusing them of anything, this is their testimony themselves.
Grace7x77 is the only one who really supports hyper-grace, based on his contributions.
Now what we are talking about here is theology, and the consequences that flow from this. People vary vastly how they practice their faith from what they might say they believe. For instance someone may say they are not aware of sin, but only of good things, yet repent, confess and ask forgiveness for things they do everyday. So they are not following the theology, but a practice of life that comes from a different set of ideas.
The group you are talking about except Coby, have seen any contribution as an attack against them, but rather it is just talking about beliefs and where they lead.
So when you ask me about evidence, I would say you just need to look at the statements made by the core leaders of these theologies, what they do and how they behave.
Whenever people talk about their lifestyle, what I am told constantly is how they cannot go a day without sinning.
I am not the one testifying or accusing them of anything, this is their testimony themselves.
E
It is true that the Scriptures often warn us against*deception, and it is true that some preach “another Jesus” (who is not Jesus at all) and “another gospel” (which is no gospel at all; see 2 Cor. 11:1-4; Gal. 1:6-9). And it is true that many false converts will be shocked when Jesus says to them on that great and dreadful Day, “Depart from me” (see Matt. 7:21-23; 25:31-46).
All of us should examine ourselves to be sure that we are “in the faith” (2 Cor. 13:5) and all of us should be diligent to “confirm [our] calling and election” (2 Pet. 1:10), and this does mean falling into performance-based religious exercises but rather living out our calling to be God’s children (see 2 Pet. 1:3-11; this is our response to what God has graciously done for us).
At the same time, we need to be very careful about setting ourselves up as the ultimate judge of who is saved and who is lost--meaning, among those who claim to be followers of the Jesus of the Scriptures.
Some have decided that I cannot possibly be saved because I am not a Calvinist (seriously), as exemplified by this comment posted to one of my YouTube debates: “I certainly wouldn't call Brown a brother, he denies the*gospel, he denies what Christ did on the cross and deniesJesus*has the power to save and keep His Church without man's help. Brown’s God is not God.”
So, according to Tim, because I don’t believe, with Calvin, that some “individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction,” that I’m not actually saved. (And yes, I hear from those who assure me that Calvinists are not saved.)
How myopic and wrongheaded can we be
All of us should examine ourselves to be sure that we are “in the faith” (2 Cor. 13:5) and all of us should be diligent to “confirm [our] calling and election” (2 Pet. 1:10), and this does mean falling into performance-based religious exercises but rather living out our calling to be God’s children (see 2 Pet. 1:3-11; this is our response to what God has graciously done for us).
At the same time, we need to be very careful about setting ourselves up as the ultimate judge of who is saved and who is lost--meaning, among those who claim to be followers of the Jesus of the Scriptures.
Some have decided that I cannot possibly be saved because I am not a Calvinist (seriously), as exemplified by this comment posted to one of my YouTube debates: “I certainly wouldn't call Brown a brother, he denies the*gospel, he denies what Christ did on the cross and deniesJesus*has the power to save and keep His Church without man's help. Brown’s God is not God.”
So, according to Tim, because I don’t believe, with Calvin, that some “individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction,” that I’m not actually saved. (And yes, I hear from those who assure me that Calvinists are not saved.)
How myopic and wrongheaded can we be
Ember quotes above -
What he is prepared to do, is falsify conversations...blatantly lie and accuse ....doing the devils work for him
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Thankyou for trying to trash all my contributions. At least we are making progress as this vitriol is amazing.
This list is just an attempt by Ember to claim some victim status and smear me. But it does not work.
The only issues I have is simple. We are called to walk in "righteousness, integrity, honesty, truth."
Love is our motivation and key from the heart. It is through sanctification we are transformed into Jesus's likeness.
Our hearts are transformed by the renewing of our minds as we dwell on the love of Christ, the good work He is doing and glory of His work in us.
Idolatry of healing and gifts. It struck me yesterday that rather than seeking first the Kingdom of God and its righteousness, people are seeking first healing and the gifts. This has been demonstrated to me time and again when "LOVE" is talked about being the key of the gospel, this is rejected, even though God is love.
I still have no clue why people fight this reality of the gospel unless they actually are not following Him.
So I have no clue what Ember is talking about or why it bothers her so much, but it really, really does.
What he is prepared to do, is falsify conversations...blatantly lie and accuse ....doing the devils work for him
-
Thankyou for trying to trash all my contributions. At least we are making progress as this vitriol is amazing.
This list is just an attempt by Ember to claim some victim status and smear me. But it does not work.
The only issues I have is simple. We are called to walk in "righteousness, integrity, honesty, truth."
Love is our motivation and key from the heart. It is through sanctification we are transformed into Jesus's likeness.
Our hearts are transformed by the renewing of our minds as we dwell on the love of Christ, the good work He is doing and glory of His work in us.
Idolatry of healing and gifts. It struck me yesterday that rather than seeking first the Kingdom of God and its righteousness, people are seeking first healing and the gifts. This has been demonstrated to me time and again when "LOVE" is talked about being the key of the gospel, this is rejected, even though God is love.
I still have no clue why people fight this reality of the gospel unless they actually are not following Him.
So I have no clue what Ember is talking about or why it bothers her so much, but it really, really does.
E
I serve the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob
Jesus us my Lord and He is my brother
The very fact peter jens is now defending himself...when I NEVER mentionned his name in my above post addressing the evil spiritual nature of this thread is PROOF that he knows what he has done
Too late for damage control...you cannot erase your posts to me either and there are plenty if them and they read like I say they do...anyone csn read them and most have and wonder why you are so intent on trying to malign me...well God knows and actually I do too
You should not have begun this
I am ALWAYS for peace...but lies and slander are giving this forum a bad atmosphere and it needs to stop
Jesus us my Lord and He is my brother
The very fact peter jens is now defending himself...when I NEVER mentionned his name in my above post addressing the evil spiritual nature of this thread is PROOF that he knows what he has done
Too late for damage control...you cannot erase your posts to me either and there are plenty if them and they read like I say they do...anyone csn read them and most have and wonder why you are so intent on trying to malign me...well God knows and actually I do too
You should not have begun this
I am ALWAYS for peace...but lies and slander are giving this forum a bad atmosphere and it needs to stop