Such cofusion in the church concerning the rapture
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I, too, am a 'pre-trib' believer. 
I must say, though, that the word 'tribulation' is not accurate for what will follow the rapture of the saints. After God pulls His children from the earth, He will then pour out His wrath upon creation. This is what is called 'the Great Tribulation' and why people have such a hard time understanding when the rapture will happen, what Revelation is saying, and so on. It should actually be termed "the Time of Jacob's Trouble", which is talked about in Daniel.
The Bible tells us we will have tribulation, so when they speak in Revelation and elsewhere about the tribulation, they are talking about that which we face here and now, not the time of the anti-Christ and the wrath of God. I tell you now that the wrath of God is nothing to sneer at. He has withheld His wrath, but in Revelation, when the vials are poured out, there is the wrath of God.
If you study the book of Revelation, you will see that all but the last seal has been broken, the one referred to here:
This is when the rapture of the church will occur, once this seal is broken and the sun/moon/stars do as it says. Then the wrath of God begins. This is before the anti-Christ rises to power, you will notice. The reason that this is where I believe that the Rapture happens is because of what Jesus said in the New Testament.
So, as you can see, the moon/stars/sun occurrence is mentioned here by Christ first, before the Revelation was given to John on Patmos. Here, in this Scripture where Jesus speaks, we see that the elect are gathered after that seal is broken and the stars fall like figs and the Son of Man appears in the sky. Rapture.
Now, as you may have noted, there is a verse here that was quoted earlier to try to show that the rapture doesn't happen until after the wrath of God is poured out on creation. Yet, in context, we see that the tribulation spoken of is what we see already daily. Namely "False Christs (Messiahs) and false prophets will arise and show signs and [work] miracles to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (those God has chosen out for Himself)." It is not speaking of the wrath that is to come, but of the tribulation we face today.
There is much more, but I don't like long posts and I think this has passed even my level of tolerance. I will say this, though. The key is to be prepared either way. No one knows the day or hour, but we are called to watch the signs. We must be prepared to die for Christ as we live for Him. The one thing that matters is your life and your heart, for regardless of when the rapture is to occur, if you are His, you are going. You don't need to know if it is pre-, mid-, or post-Jacob's Trouble. You do, however, need to be living for Christ. The rest will take care of itself.
I must say, though, that the word 'tribulation' is not accurate for what will follow the rapture of the saints. After God pulls His children from the earth, He will then pour out His wrath upon creation. This is what is called 'the Great Tribulation' and why people have such a hard time understanding when the rapture will happen, what Revelation is saying, and so on. It should actually be termed "the Time of Jacob's Trouble", which is talked about in Daniel.The Bible tells us we will have tribulation, so when they speak in Revelation and elsewhere about the tribulation, they are talking about that which we face here and now, not the time of the anti-Christ and the wrath of God. I tell you now that the wrath of God is nothing to sneer at. He has withheld His wrath, but in Revelation, when the vials are poured out, there is the wrath of God.
If you study the book of Revelation, you will see that all but the last seal has been broken, the one referred to here:
This is when the rapture of the church will occur, once this seal is broken and the sun/moon/stars do as it says. Then the wrath of God begins. This is before the anti-Christ rises to power, you will notice. The reason that this is where I believe that the Rapture happens is because of what Jesus said in the New Testament.
So, as you can see, the moon/stars/sun occurrence is mentioned here by Christ first, before the Revelation was given to John on Patmos. Here, in this Scripture where Jesus speaks, we see that the elect are gathered after that seal is broken and the stars fall like figs and the Son of Man appears in the sky. Rapture.
Now, as you may have noted, there is a verse here that was quoted earlier to try to show that the rapture doesn't happen until after the wrath of God is poured out on creation. Yet, in context, we see that the tribulation spoken of is what we see already daily. Namely "False Christs (Messiahs) and false prophets will arise and show signs and [work] miracles to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (those God has chosen out for Himself)." It is not speaking of the wrath that is to come, but of the tribulation we face today.
There is much more, but I don't like long posts and I think this has passed even my level of tolerance.
I will say this, though. The key is to be prepared either way. No one knows the day or hour, but we are called to watch the signs. We must be prepared to die for Christ as we live for Him. The one thing that matters is your life and your heart, for regardless of when the rapture is to occur, if you are His, you are going. You don't need to know if it is pre-, mid-, or post-Jacob's Trouble. You do, however, need to be living for Christ. The rest will take care of itself.
Wouldn't you just assume that Abraham, David and all those who have gone before are already with Christ? The reason I ask is because you hear about how Jesus talks about how Lazarus and the rich man were separated by a gulf and the rich man was suffering and would have loved for Lazarus to dip his finger in the water and give him to drink, which he was refused. Abraham was there, too.
Consider it was approx 2,000 years from the time God's covenant with Abraham to be the father of His People until the rejection of the same people of the Messiah. The religious leaders of Christ's day rejected Him as Messiah even though they had all the words of the prophets. These religious leaders instead used their interpretations and traditions of men and concluded that they knew better then Christ.
Now it has been nearly 2,000 years since Christ formed his "Church." Our leaders today are again ignoring the Word of Christ and the clear timing that He provided for His return. Instead, these men have invented their own doctrine and have rejected Christ's word replacing it with their private interpretations concerning a fabricated Rapture. In the process, they will lead many Christians astray.
Sadly, history repeats.
Now it has been nearly 2,000 years since Christ formed his "Church." Our leaders today are again ignoring the Word of Christ and the clear timing that He provided for His return. Instead, these men have invented their own doctrine and have rejected Christ's word replacing it with their private interpretations concerning a fabricated Rapture. In the process, they will lead many Christians astray.
Sadly, history repeats.
confusion is a sign of babylon
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her sexual promiscuity, and the kings of the earth have committed divorce and remarriage adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of that church, my people, that ye be not partakers of her ten commandment breaking, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her ten commandment breaking has reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
definitions:
1 John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the ten commandments.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her sexual promiscuity, and the kings of the earth have committed divorce and remarriage adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of that church, my people, that ye be not partakers of her ten commandment breaking, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her ten commandment breaking has reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
definitions:
1 John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the ten commandments.
I think that you are right, history is repeating itself. Before Christ came the first time, the spiritual meaning of Christ was given in scripture. The sages read all of them and decided on the physical way that Christ would come, and what would happen in the world as they humanly understood the world. They said that Christ would take over the Roman government, for instance, scripture plainly spoke of Christ taking over the government in Isaiah. The sages knew every prophecy about Christ, they knew exactly how it would be. It is the same now.
We are not given prophecy to be told how many years what will happen and when. We are given prophecy so we know that even though demons are let loose in our world now, we must keep absolute faith, even to our loosing our earthly life. That we can trust that God will win, and we will be cared for.
We are not given prophecy to be told how many years what will happen and when. We are given prophecy so we know that even though demons are let loose in our world now, we must keep absolute faith, even to our loosing our earthly life. That we can trust that God will win, and we will be cared for.
Actually, the "Rapture" and Second Coming are NOT each spoken of. There is only ONE EVENT - The Second Coming. The Lord returns ONCE and when He comes, He comes to stay and to reign.
The reason you can't find any scripture connecting two returns is there is only one return. You will not find a single passage in the Bible that discusses two future returns of Christ. You will find no stand alone Rapture lesson. The rapture doctrine has been fabricated by man by piecing multiple (and often unrelated) passages together and filling in their private desires such as a return trip to heaven where no such return trip to heaven can be found. Man invented an earlier return of Christ whereby He takes the Church to heaven - No such lesson can be found and there is NO timing anywhere that places the Lord's return before the Tribulation.
Stick to the Word. Read Mark 13. This is the passage where Jesus specifically discusses the end times and his return. Jesus clearly states He returns AFTER the Tribulation. Further, Jesus says this:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Jesus did not stutter. He did not leave anything out. Since He told us ALL THINGS and "ALL" means EVERYTHING, where is the Rapture return mentioned in Mark 13? Anyone???
The reason you can't find any scripture connecting two returns is there is only one return. You will not find a single passage in the Bible that discusses two future returns of Christ. You will find no stand alone Rapture lesson. The rapture doctrine has been fabricated by man by piecing multiple (and often unrelated) passages together and filling in their private desires such as a return trip to heaven where no such return trip to heaven can be found. Man invented an earlier return of Christ whereby He takes the Church to heaven - No such lesson can be found and there is NO timing anywhere that places the Lord's return before the Tribulation.
Stick to the Word. Read Mark 13. This is the passage where Jesus specifically discusses the end times and his return. Jesus clearly states He returns AFTER the Tribulation. Further, Jesus says this:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Jesus did not stutter. He did not leave anything out. Since He told us ALL THINGS and "ALL" means EVERYTHING, where is the Rapture return mentioned in Mark 13? Anyone???
The truth sets us free. But we need to put Scripture as out #1 guide, if anything does not match Scripture it is not valid.
Mattithyah 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."
Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."
1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
The pre-trib doctrine was never preached before around 1830, and is in place to get people to accept the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about thier comin "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens.
Mattithyah 24:24-25, "For there will arise false messiahs and false prophets who will show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect. Behold, I have warned you beforehand!"
Here are some links
CNN Hologram TV First - YouTube
CNN Will I Am Hologram, First time on TV - YouTube
223 - The New Age Agenda - Amazing Discoveries TV
7325 - The Coming Cosmic Christ / Secrets of the Ages - John Triplett - YouTube
Project Blue Beam By Serge Monast (1994)
After the Tribulation (Full Movie) - Alex Jones - YouTube
Mattithyah 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."
Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."
1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
The pre-trib doctrine was never preached before around 1830, and is in place to get people to accept the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about thier comin "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens.
Mattithyah 24:24-25, "For there will arise false messiahs and false prophets who will show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect. Behold, I have warned you beforehand!"
Here are some links
CNN Hologram TV First - YouTube
CNN Will I Am Hologram, First time on TV - YouTube
223 - The New Age Agenda - Amazing Discoveries TV
7325 - The Coming Cosmic Christ / Secrets of the Ages - John Triplett - YouTube
Project Blue Beam By Serge Monast (1994)
After the Tribulation (Full Movie) - Alex Jones - YouTube
Would this be one of those other commandments?
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
So, what happens to those who are deceived because they think the Rapture (i.e. Christ returns) first when it isn't really Christ and they believe it and go out?? I wonder, are their consequences for disobedience on this issue??
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
So, what happens to those who are deceived because they think the Rapture (i.e. Christ returns) first when it isn't really Christ and they believe it and go out?? I wonder, are their consequences for disobedience on this issue??
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