Sunday Keepers Dare to explain this

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kennethcadwell

Guest
#21
The real issue is how the Sabbath is kept also was changed from the OT to the NT.
As in the OT people were to be put to death for working on the Sabbath, even as simple as picking up sticks. But under the NT the Lord changed the standard as He showed with His apostle's picking grain and eating it, and the man He healed and had pick up his bed role and carry it. Both was on the Sabbath.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,691
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#22
Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Heb 3:16-19, "For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey?So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, andmay enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

If these people physically died a long long time before Yahshua (Jesus) became our mercy, how could this even be said? "vow that they would not enter into His rest"

Heb 4:2, "For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed. "

The real rest is this:

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"
so that true Sabbath - His rest - is that eternal life in His presence that is the hope and promise of our salvation?

amen! and as we now labor towards it :)

this is like, how i understand, that in Christ we are become new, leaving behind the works of the flesh for the good works He prepared for us. as Christ showed us how it is lawful to do the Father's work on this day, though we are called now to a 'life of Sabbath' in a sense, ceasing from our own labors, it is good according to His commands to do His work while we cease from our own.
His work too will be complete on that day, and all of us who it pleases Him to give salvation to will at that time cease from these labors too, all things being complete!
 
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elf3

Guest
#23
The problem is people's definition of "day". As long as you are alive, it is YOUR day.
Yeah. Whether we say go to church Saturday or Sunday we can actually be giving the wrong idea to non Christians. It's an everyday thing not a once a week thing. Just think how many people out there believe they are Christian because they go to church once a week. why? Because we aren't preaching the Gospel of Christ but talking more about "a day".
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,691
13,135
113
#24
I might be lost a bit lol
My point would be that we are no longer under the Mosaic law. And would God be more happy on a day we "worship" Him or that we have given our lives to Christ. Things like this divide the church and take our minds off the Gospel of Christ. I just think we on a whole as the church need to focus more on the Gospel.
i was trying to explain that this argument that always pops up over whether church service should be on saturday or sunday, on the basis of the sabbath, is based in a false understanding of the sabbath. going to a church building, singing some songs of praise together, being taught with a sermon, etc. is not "honoring the sabbath" as far as i understand it. it's not nec. dishonoring it, but what we most American Christians do on sunday/saturday isn't 'sabbath keeping' to begin with.

maybe i shouldn't have brought it up haha. no one had said anything about it anyway. but all that 'sunday sabbath' talk is off base to begin with, is all, to my mind. sorry i confused you =[
 
Dec 24, 2014
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#25


John (Yahchanan 15:4-6, "Abide in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
Exodus 29





This is the TAMID offering. Im not sure how this changes anything, many have used this verse to try to disable the Sabbath, but it makes no sense, at least the views I have heard on this; So the Tamid was offered by the priest, and not for each and every person, but for all Israyl. Yahshua is now the High Priest, the priesthood is transferred, not done away, AND considering the OP, I think this is showing that Sabbath is going to contiue in the 1,000 yrs and likely beyond.





Ok He is the door:

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Find me a single place where Yahshua says not to obey Yahweh's Law and I will repent INSTANTLY, until then I will seek to do as he says:

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 19:17-21, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your efather and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him; All these things I have kept from my youth up; what do I yet lack? Yahshua said to him: If you want to come to the perfection of Yahweh, go and sell of what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and you will be walking in Yahweh's ways, and following Me."

Mattithyah 5:20-30, ""For I say to you: Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will certainly not enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment; But I say to you: Whoever is angry with his brother will be in danger of the judgment! Again, anyone who says; Raca! insulting your brother, will be in danger of the Sanhedrin, but whoever says: Nabel! desiring them to fall away, will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you; Leave your gift there before the altar, and go first and be reconciled with your brother; then come and offer your gift. Settle a controversy with your accuser quickly, before he gets you into court; or your adversary may deliver you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be put into prison. Truly I say to you: You will never come out of there until you have paid the last penny. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not commit adultery; But I say to you: Whoever looks on a woman with lust for her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So if your right eye causes you to offend; sin, gouge it out and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna. Or if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna."

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.


Matt 24:20, "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on the Sabbath Day, For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be."

Jesus didnt get the law change memo?
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

Again remember this is PARABOLIC. These aren't literal lambs. We as sheep die all day long! You MUST crucify the flesh in order to enter into the gate to meet God. The great majority however, goes by way of literal destruction, but there will be a generation that will enter ALIVE on this earth. Remember, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
 
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elf3

Guest
#26
i was trying to explain that this argument that always pops up over whether church service should be on saturday or sunday, on the basis of the sabbath, is based in a false understanding of the sabbath. going to a church building, singing some songs of praise together, being taught with a sermon, etc. is not "honoring the sabbath" as far as i understand it. it's not nec. dishonoring it, but what we most American Christians do on sunday/saturday isn't 'sabbath keeping' to begin with.

maybe i shouldn't have brought it up haha. no one had said anything about it anyway. but all that 'sunday sabbath' talk is off base to begin with, is all, to my mind. sorry i confused you =[
Actually I think it was more of me confusing myself lol.
 
May 3, 2013
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#27
Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"
It seemed a gentile "disagreement" and it reminded me somethinh like this:

Acts 6:1 A lot of people were now becoming followers of the Lord. But some of the ones who spoke Greek started complaining about the ones who spoke Aramaic. They complained that the Greek-speaking widows were not given their share when the food supplies were handed out each day.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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#28
Yes but think about this...the two greatest commandments. Love God love others. In the new covenant do you think God is more concerned what day we set aside for Him or that we have given our lives to Him? I totally have no problem with messianic Jews keeping the Sabbath and following some Jewish traditions. The problem arises when we start to "judge" others by certain things they do like "church on Sunday". When we judge others on things like this we become no better that the Jewish leaders of old.

So my brother Hiz can we agree that Christ is the center not a day we "give to Him"? We should be giving every day to God anyway :) in my book once a week isn't enough and neither is 8 days a week
Sabbath does not mean you worship 1 day. It mean you set one day aside 100%, not 99%, not 75%, noy 25%, 100% to Yah, this is impossible every day in the human body neds care, not that its evil, but that is not focus on Him.

But I see alot of opinion, I posted Scripture and the first thing you said was, "Yes but think about this"

Ok we will proceed to do that my brother.

So the great 2:


Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Shaul clearly understands what the Messiah means and explains it here:

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

So Paul CLEARLY says, that Commandments 5-10* (*missing honor parents) sum up love. No wait, he asid, "and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws...therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

I assume all means all.

So can we break "do not steal" and be loving? According to Scripture, NO.

So seeing as the greatest Law is, "You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might" and Paul says loving your neighbor is summed up by Commandments 5-10, why would we not think loving Yah is Commandments 1-4,

especially when HE HIMSELF SAYS IT IS??????????? (you got me confruusssed-da-did) :)

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Now if we may consider Commandments 1-4 and see if keeping them is love toward Yah;

1 - You shall have no hinder gods at all. They are in opposition against Me.

(I would say yeah, since I am human, I would look at it fom a human perspective.... will my wife think I love her if I cheat on her?) We can agree no I assume?

2 - You shall not make for yourself any carved image; an idol, in the form of anything in heaven above, or on the earth beneath, or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them nor serve them; for I, Yahweh your Father, am a jealous Heavenly Father, punishing the children for the lawbreaking of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.

Same as the last? and even a added: "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws. "

3 - You shall not take the Name of Yahweh your Heavenly Father to bring it to nothing, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who brings dishonor upon or profanes His Name.

(if we love Him we would not hide His Name nor bring dishonor upon it. (worldly dishonor and dishonor are not the same thing) In a general sense I assume you agree here?

4 - Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the Seventh Day is the Sabbath of Yahweh your Heavenly Father. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your wife, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor the stranger who dwells within your gates. For in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them; and rested the Seventh Day. Therefore, Yahweh blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it; Yahweh the Sabbath Day holy.

Ok, so as soon as we get to spending time with Him, that ritual and not love? IMO, Sabbath is like Him calling me on the phone, "Hey you little dirty child... want to hang out on Sabbath?"

Yes I would like that.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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#29
so that true Sabbath - His rest - is that eternal life in His presence that is the hope and promise of our salvation?

amen! and as we now labor towards it :)

this is like, how i understand, that in Christ we are become new, leaving behind the works of the flesh for the good works He prepared for us. as Christ showed us how it is lawful to do the Father's work on this day, though we are called now to a 'life of Sabbath' in a sense, ceasing from our own labors, it is good according to His commands to do His work while we cease from our own.
His work too will be complete on that day, and all of us who it pleases Him to give salvation to will at that time cease from these labors too, all things being complete!
I would fully agree we are called to a life of His will, but I dont take that as a removal of what has been spoken. but yes, may we all do His will.

Yahshua thought Sabbath was still going to be kept, even up to the pre-endtimes, so Im not going to tell Him any different.

Matt 24:20, "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on the Sabbath Day, For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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#30
i was trying to explain that this argument that always pops up over whether church service should be on saturday or sunday, on the basis of the sabbath, is based in a false understanding of the sabbath. going to a church building, singing some songs of praise together, being taught with a sermon, etc. is not "honoring the sabbath" as far as i understand it. it's not nec. dishonoring it, but what we most American Christians do on sunday/saturday isn't 'sabbath keeping' to begin with.

maybe i shouldn't have brought it up haha. no one had said anything about it anyway. but all that 'sunday sabbath' talk is off base to begin with, is all, to my mind. sorry i confused you =[
If your saying worship and gathering is valid every day, I agree 100% But this does not replace or alter what has been spoken by Yah.
 
May 3, 2013
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#31
Most of the 1st followers were used to keep THAT to attend synagoges and after being casted out they chose another day to asemblies?

How acute that is?

Mat 10:5 Jesus sent out the twelve apostles with these instructions: Stay away from the Gentiles and don't go to any Samaritan town.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
Mat 10:6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, commanding them, saying, "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 
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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#32
It seemed a gentile "disagreement" and it reminded me somethinh like this:

Acts 6:1 A lot of people were now becoming followers of the Lord. But some of the ones who spoke Greek started complaining about the ones who spoke Aramaic. They complained that the Greek-speaking widows were not given their share when the food supplies were handed out each day.
Wow, this is interesting, and I forgot all about this....they were still in the nazerite era at this time, do you think that was the reason for this? or...
 
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ChristIsGod

Guest
#33
We've had this thread months ago and I posted what I heard some bio-scientist panel said - that "the human body works best with one day of REST per week."

I do talk to the radio and told them where it was written.

Some folks do a Lot of Stuff on that day and say they're keeping the sabbath but they're not if they're not resting as well.
 
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elf3

Guest
#34
Hmm ok it's great to post tons of scripture defending the Sabbath but it doesn't seem any one, or at least only a couple people, get the point.

If a non Christian were to read this thread what would they think of what being a Christian means? Well according to all the scripture being a Christian means that no matter what I better keep the Sabbath.

Is this a correct teaching of the true Gospel of Christ? No! As the Gospel of Christ has nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,691
13,135
113
#35
The real issue is how the Sabbath is kept also was changed from the OT to the NT.
As in the OT people were to be put to death for working on the Sabbath, even as simple as picking up sticks. But under the NT the Lord changed the standard as He showed with His apostle's picking grain and eating it, and the man He healed and had pick up his bed role and carry it. Both was on the Sabbath.

yes, and how that Christ's justification was that it is lawful to do the work of God on the Sabbath, saying that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. this too was before the cross.

what gives me pause is how that at the council in Jerusalem, the apostles were led not to 'burden' the Gentile believers with commandments, and how Paul specifically wrote that we should not let anyone judge us over a Sabbath day. i am sure he didn't primarily mean 'don't let anyone judge you for keeping it according to the law of Moses' but exactly the opposite - don't suffer judgement for not keeping it according to the Levitical law. of course, in the same way we shouldn't judge or be judged for keeping it, unless by doing so we place ourselves under the whole law, which it is clear we ought not to do.

the way that Paul said this, how the council of apostles did not look to enforce it, and how the nature of His rest is explained in the book of Hebrews, makes me understand that the shadow of His rest as found in the Law is not the thing now commanded for us. surely it's not blotted out, but lifted up.

if i was understanding what Hizikyah showed us rightly, that His true rest is that eternal hope that is yet to come, i think this is the right understanding, and is what the ordinance was to point toward. it's hard for me to concede that the Sabbath should be kept now in the same way as an ordinance though, because of how the burden of the law has been lifted from us. (how great the grace of God!!)


 
May 3, 2013
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#36
i was trying to explain that this argument that always pops up over whether church service should be on saturday or sunday, on the basis of the sabbath, is based in a false understanding of the sabbath. going to a church building, singing some songs of praise together, being taught with a sermon, etc. is not "honoring the sabbath" as far as i understand it. it's not nec. dishonoring it, but what we most American Christians do on sunday/saturday isn't 'sabbath keeping' to begin with.

maybe i shouldn't have brought it up haha. no one had said anything about it anyway. but all that 'sunday sabbath' talk is off base to begin with, is all, to my mind. sorry i confused you =[
Why not using both, saturday and sunday services?

Let´s make corrections to avoid something like this:

Hch 20:9 A young man by the name of Eutychus was sitting on a window sill. While Paul was speaking, the young man got very sleepy. Finally, he went to sleep and fell three floors all the way down to the ground. When they picked him up, he was dead.
 
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elf3

Guest
#37
God for sure won't condemn us for "not keeping the Sabbath" but if we don't have Christ we are condemned. Final bottom line.
 
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elf3

Guest
#38
Why not using both, saturday and sunday services?

Let´s make corrections to avoid something like this:

Hch 20:9 A young man by the name of Eutychus was sitting on a window sill. While Paul was speaking, the young man got very sleepy. Finally, he went to sleep and fell three floors all the way down to the ground. When they picked him up, he was dead.
For sure...don't fall asleep on the Gospel of Christ!
 
May 3, 2013
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#39
Hmm ok it's great to post tons of scripture defending the Sabbath but it doesn't seem any one, or at least only a couple people, get the point.

If a non Christian were to read this thread what would they think of what being a Christian means? Well according to all the scripture being a Christian means that no matter what I better keep the Sabbath.

Is this a correct teaching of the true Gospel of Christ? No! As the Gospel of Christ has nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath.

Really?

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath.
 
May 3, 2013
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#40
God for sure won't condemn us for "not keeping the Sabbath" but if we don't have Christ we are condemned. Final bottom line.
More than "having" Him as friend, Lord, guide, master, teacher... Acts 4:12

He is the example to follow and imitate, I guess.