the 2 bears & their 42 victims

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
18,436
7,253
113
#61
Take home message: there's no age of accountability.
Not at all. These were "young men" mature enough to go to war. Fully adult and fully accountable in the eyes of God.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
341
57
28
#62
Not at all. These were "young men" mature enough to go to war. Fully adult and fully accountable in the eyes of God.
And there were no babies and young children in the flood of Noah's day and of Sodom and Gomorrah? Stop kidding yourself.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,675
13,131
113
#63
Take home message: there's no age of accountability.
No,

The take-home-message is Christ.
The scripture is not about cutsey little moral lessons; it is testimony about the person and work of Christ.

Don't be satisfied with a superficial, Christless interpretation of scripture. That is not why He gave us of His Spirit.
These aren't Aesop's fables bro it's the word of God, and it's incredibly deep and complex moreso than anything ever written, and it's about Him.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,675
13,131
113
#64
And there were no babies and young children in the flood of Noah's day and of Sodom and Gomorrah? Stop kidding yourself.
The word used here that kjv took the liberty of translating 'children' is the exact same word used to describe Joseph when he is 39 yrs old in Genesis 44.

2 Kings 2:23-24 is not separate from 2 Kings 1& 2. The context clearly dictates a group of 50 military—age men
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,970
1,397
113
Midwest
#65
The word used here that kjv took the liberty of translating 'children' is the exact same word used to describe Joseph when he is 39 yrs old in Genesis 44.

2 Kings 2:23-24 is not separate from 2 Kings 1& 2. The context clearly dictates a group of 50 military—age men
?
2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

little children are the same as grown military-age men?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,675
13,131
113
#66
?
2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

little children are the same as grown military-age men?
my position is that "little children" is not an accurate translation.
read post #2 of this thread.
my position is fully supported by the context and the overall usage of this word.

i am sorry if you are a kjvian but kjv is not always correct.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
341
57
28
#67
The word used here that kjv took the liberty of translating 'children' is the exact same word used to describe Joseph when he is 39 yrs old in Genesis 44.

2 Kings 2:23-24 is not separate from 2 Kings 1& 2. The context clearly dictates a group of 50 military—age men
And there were no babies and young children in the flood of Noah's day and of Sodom and Gomorrah?
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,539
456
83
68
#68
please note:
  • "children" is not necessarily an accurate translation, and very likely not given the usage & context of this Hebrew word.
View attachment 246945

  • first mention of this word is Genesis 14:24, referring to the warriors/servants who, with Abraham, defeated 5 kings & rescued Sodom. obviously not little children.
  • comparing Genesis 41:1, 12 & 46, Joseph is no less than 28 and no more than 30 when he is referred to by the same word. obviously not a little child.
  • the preceding context in 2 Kings 1:9,11,13 & 2 Kings 2:3,5,7 & 16 is 50 fighting servants of age to serve in the military --just like the first mention of this word in scripture in Genesis 14:24.
    • that's 6 witnesses in the immediate context. should i ignore all of them and be all 'oh but kjv is divine' and presume these are a two-busload-zize gang of unsupervised 7yr old children below the age of accountability who don't understand what they are doing?
    • or is this a gang of military-age young men in their 20's-30's?
    • how many are there in total; 50 or 42
  • Elisha is between 25-30 years old at this time.
    • is he actually bald at 25 or does "go up you baldhead' mean something else?
    • are these 6yr old children or Elisha's peers who have come out of the city without their parents in a pack to threaten him?
It would seem that John Gill agrees with your assessment about the "children" and I too believe this to be the case. He said:

And he went up from thence unto Bethel,.... From Jericho, which lay in a plain, to Bethel, situated on an hill, and therefore is said to go up to it; hither he went, to acquaint the sons of the prophets with the assumption of Elijah, to condole their loss of him, and to comfort and encourage them, and confirm his own authority among them as a prophet in his stead:
and as he was going up by the way; the ascent to the city:

there came forth little children out of the city; the word for "children" is used of persons of thirty or forty years of age; and though these are said to be "little", they were so well grown as to be able to go forth out of the city of themselves, without any to guide them, or to take care of them; and were of an age capable not only of taking notice of Elijah's baldness, but knew him to be a prophet, and were able to distinguish between good and evil; and, from a malignant spirit in them, mocked at him as such, and at the assumption of Elijah; which they had knowledge of, and to whom, taught by their idolatrous parents, they had an aversion: some Jewish writers (x) say, they were called "Naarim", which we render "children", because shaken from the commandments, or had shaken off the yoke of the commands; and "little", because they were of little faith:

and mocked him, and said unto him, go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head; meaning not up the hill to Bethel, where his coming was not desirable to the greater part in it, being idolaters; and perhaps these children were sent out to intimidate him with their flouts and jeers from entering there; but having heard of Elijah going up to heaven, as was said, they jeeringly bid him go up to heaven after him, and then they should have a good riddance of them both; thus at the same time mocking at him for his baldness, and making a jest of the wondrous work of God, the assumption of Elijah; which, with behaving so irreverently to an hoary head, a prophet of the Lord, was very heinous and wicked, and therefore what befell them need not be wondered at.
(x) T. Bab. Sotah, fol. 46. 2.
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,335
521
113
#69
While many prophets were "types" of Christ, this doesn't mean in everything they did. These 'kids' were wicked & they were judged, as simple as that.
These "children" were above the age of accountability, Yet nobody knows their exact age nor can prove it. Commentaries variate on their ages.
Wouldn't it just be easier to say "old enough to know better" & leave it at that?
50 would have been like a rebellious pack of boys whose intent was to cause trouble with anyone they met.
Was the prophet's curse just? God answered him, didn't He? This means their judgment was a long time coming
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
18,436
7,253
113
#70
it's the word of God, and it's incredibly deep and complex moreso than anything ever written, and it's about Him.
Amen bro. There seems to be "fractal" and "holographic" aspects to the text. An integrated message system from outside out space and time domain so says Chuck Missler.

Our Bible is the authentic genuine Word of God. The other so-called holy books are shabby counterfeits. Once you see and know the authentic, the forgeries become all too apparent for what they are.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,481
12,950
113
#71
there came forth little children out of the city; the word for "children" is used of persons of thirty or forty years of age
That is incorrect. The Hebrew text says "little children" and here is what children means in that context: "נַעַר naʻar, nah'-ar; from H5287; (concretely) a boy (as active), from the age of infancy to adolescence"

So these were probably young teenagers bent upon having some "fun".
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
18,436
7,253
113
#72
That is incorrect. The Hebrew text says "little children" and here is what children means in that context: "נַעַר naʻar, nah'-ar; from H5287; (concretely) a boy (as active), from the age of infancy to adolescence"

So these were probably young teenagers bent upon having some "fun".
I am going with "insignificant, unimportant youths who departed from the true God of their fathers and were servants of Baal and did worship to the demon gods".

Strong's H6996 qāṭān
  1. young, small, insignificant, unimportant
    1. small
    2. insignificant
    3. young
    4. unimportant
The KJV translates Strong's H6996 in the following manner: small (33x), little (19x), youngest (15x), younger (14x), least (10x), less (3x), lesser (2x), little one (2x), smallest (1x), small things (1x), young (1x).

Strong's H5288 naʿar
  1. a boy, lad, servant, youth, retainer
    1. boy, lad, youth
    2. servant, retainer

The KJV translates Strong's H5288 in the following manner: young man (76x), servant (54x), child (44x), lad (33x), young (15x), children (7x), youth (6x), babe (1x), boys (1x), young (1x).
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,675
13,131
113
#73
And there were no babies and young children in the flood of Noah's day and of Sodom and Gomorrah?
This is not about whether babies die or not. It is about the context, and we specifically have groups of 50 military age men over and over and over in the context. The word in Hebrew is not a definitive age but anything from 10-40 years old. Context is that these also are military age men in a group of 50, so 8 are spared
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,539
456
83
68
#74
That is incorrect. The Hebrew text says "little children" and here is what children means in that context: "נַעַר naʻar, nah'-ar; from H5287; (concretely) a boy (as active), from the age of infancy to adolescence"

So these were probably young teenagers bent upon having some "fun".
That certainly could be.
 

ThewindBlows

Active member
Sep 30, 2019
180
85
28
#75
I notice if you go back back to 1 Kings, Jezebel used two witnesses, sons of Belial, to bear witness against Naboth

And look at the accusation "Thou didst blaspheme God and the king."

Gods response is awesome, been an interesting study thanks for the discussion