THE BIBLE WAS CHANGED IN 300 BC
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2 timothy chapter 3-4 " 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
exactly what the word said would happen God bless
exactly what the word said would happen God bless
First, I agree that Christians have so much time and sources (internet, videos, tutorials) today, that they are quite without excuse if they do not care about the original Bible at all.
I do not say they must be fluent in ancient Greek, but to be able to at least read some portions of the Scripture in original is quite a must in any theological debate.
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with a translation for daily, common reading.
Even apostles and the very first church used the Septuagint,the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
I do not say they must be fluent in ancient Greek, but to be able to at least read some portions of the Scripture in original is quite a must in any theological debate.
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with a translation for daily, common reading.
Even apostles and the very first church used the Septuagint,the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
The challenge of the Gospel is to believe and accept the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross - not the need to be a language scholar!
The inaccuracies in your post with respect to your understanding of the history of the original tests as well as more recent translations are unbelievably poor.
Accurate translations into local languages all around the world are absolutely crucial to missions and church planting.
I am in favour of individuals learning as much Koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic as possible (My Greek is getting there but as far as Hebrew and Aramaic goes I am not much past the alphabet), however to suggest that learning these languages is properly part of what is necessary to become a Christian is simply and utterly nonsense.
I will stop here before I go on to say something really silly.
The inaccuracies in your post with respect to your understanding of the history of the original tests as well as more recent translations are unbelievably poor.
Accurate translations into local languages all around the world are absolutely crucial to missions and church planting.
I am in favour of individuals learning as much Koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic as possible (My Greek is getting there but as far as Hebrew and Aramaic goes I am not much past the alphabet), however to suggest that learning these languages is properly part of what is necessary to become a Christian is simply and utterly nonsense.
I will stop here before I go on to say something really silly.
By no means a scholar, I've just been bless to have meet people that are either muslim or have dealt with them. I have things written down, because every once in a while a muslim will stand on a street corner with the catholic sacred heart picture of Jesus with horns on His head, saying He was only a prophet and the Bible is not true. So I would stop and talk to him and we got to know each other, that was in my hyper-Pentecostal days and that guy had a cocked eye, so I would ask him if he would let me pray for him and if Jeusu would straighten his eye out would he convert. He would say no and never let me pray for him, good thing cause nothing might happened, because of my presumptions and would of looked like a fool, but worst of all I would of put Jesus out there. In that time of talking with this guy, I stopped my presumptuous ways and started doing a lot more read of actual theologians and scholars.
Then the new Church I was going to had Dr. Morey come and speak to us about the Trinity because he was written book on the subject, the pastor asked my parents if Dr Morey could stay at their home, they said yes so I got to talk to him quite a bit. He gave me some pointers because he had written and was looking into some more muslim stuff. Then about 6 months later that same pastor had a converted muslim come to speak to those that were interested about the major differences of Christianity and Islam, he gave me some more pointers told where to look in the Qur'an so I wrote it down and Dr Morey told me where to look in the Hadith. So I still have that stuff because when another muslim shows up doing the same thing I'm ready, I ask Mohammad these question about what the prophet said and he didn't have much to say, except someone lied to me, but when I showed him in the Qur'am he said he'd get back to me and I have not seen him since, not saying that he stopped, I just haven't seen him and we did have a five year brake because he got married and move to L.A.
Plus a friend of mine was reading the Hadith and the Qur'an because he was looking into Islam, because he believed the lie that Christianity is a white mans religion and Islam was a black mans religion. So I brought him where to look in the Hadith that says Mohammad was a white man, by one account "the whiteness of his underarms" someone looking for the prophet and the answer was "he's that white man over there" the other about the "whiteness of his genitals" and some places were he called back people "raisin heads" and where he talked about black slaves being worth less that a white slave. I would need to find it but he said something like it takes 4 or 5 black slaves to purchase one white slave. I can't remember right now or I should I can't find it right now, there is a Surah that talks about the Trinity, but he adds Mary into it, it's weird.
Well write some of that down and if you ever talk with a Muslim you can ask them what they think about all of those saying by or about Mohammad. That is one of the down falls of sin in the world. If it would of went from the flood to Abram we would be okay, but from the flood man started to sin greatly in the sight of the Lord and since He promised Noah no more floods, He confused us with different languages. Which I have a book with an interesting twist on that and how this guy thinks Genesis man could of conquered space, not my word, it's a book. One of these days I am going to make myself read the whole thing. Every time I get started, I just can't get through it. To many hoops, maybe if I went through it I would see that they aren't hoops or something like that. God Bless Brother.
Then the new Church I was going to had Dr. Morey come and speak to us about the Trinity because he was written book on the subject, the pastor asked my parents if Dr Morey could stay at their home, they said yes so I got to talk to him quite a bit. He gave me some pointers because he had written and was looking into some more muslim stuff. Then about 6 months later that same pastor had a converted muslim come to speak to those that were interested about the major differences of Christianity and Islam, he gave me some more pointers told where to look in the Qur'an so I wrote it down and Dr Morey told me where to look in the Hadith. So I still have that stuff because when another muslim shows up doing the same thing I'm ready, I ask Mohammad these question about what the prophet said and he didn't have much to say, except someone lied to me, but when I showed him in the Qur'am he said he'd get back to me and I have not seen him since, not saying that he stopped, I just haven't seen him and we did have a five year brake because he got married and move to L.A.
Plus a friend of mine was reading the Hadith and the Qur'an because he was looking into Islam, because he believed the lie that Christianity is a white mans religion and Islam was a black mans religion. So I brought him where to look in the Hadith that says Mohammad was a white man, by one account "the whiteness of his underarms" someone looking for the prophet and the answer was "he's that white man over there" the other about the "whiteness of his genitals" and some places were he called back people "raisin heads" and where he talked about black slaves being worth less that a white slave. I would need to find it but he said something like it takes 4 or 5 black slaves to purchase one white slave. I can't remember right now or I should I can't find it right now, there is a Surah that talks about the Trinity, but he adds Mary into it, it's weird.
Well write some of that down and if you ever talk with a Muslim you can ask them what they think about all of those saying by or about Mohammad. That is one of the down falls of sin in the world. If it would of went from the flood to Abram we would be okay, but from the flood man started to sin greatly in the sight of the Lord and since He promised Noah no more floods, He confused us with different languages. Which I have a book with an interesting twist on that and how this guy thinks Genesis man could of conquered space, not my word, it's a book. One of these days I am going to make myself read the whole thing. Every time I get started, I just can't get through it. To many hoops, maybe if I went through it I would see that they aren't hoops or something like that. God Bless Brother.
Unless you are so fluent in Greek and Hebrew that you THINK in Greek and Hebrew, you are still going to translate it into the language in which you think. I will never be able to think in Greek and Hebrew that fluently so I read versions translated by people who are able to think in Greek and Hebrew.
Then we will have what the Roman catholic church exercises for a long time. Some know the language and say what is right and wrong. I think the RCC is an good example how the truth was missused. Now nearly everybody can read the bible. And in the most important saying you will cant find an mistake. In spite of all the translations.
You are deriding others for being just like yourself.
You are suggesting we must all read the Bible ONLY in ancient Greek and ancient Hebrew,
which would require all Christians to MASTER BOTH of those languages in their ancient forms.
So I was first asking if YOU had mastered BOTH of those languages in their ancient forms.
If YOU have NOT MASTERED BOTH of those languages in their ancient forms,
then you should NOT be questioning, or deriding, other Christians, but rather YOURSELF.
Until YOU have MASTERED BOTH ancient languages, to a high level, then you are only acting hypocritical to question others who also have not.
Conclusion:
* You started this thread by railing on all Christians in general because every individual has not mastered ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek... but you yourself have ALSO not mastered these ancient languages.
* You need to either stop these hypocritical accusations entirely, or come back again in 10 or 20 years when you have fully mastered these languages.
You are suggesting we must all read the Bible ONLY in ancient Greek and ancient Hebrew,
which would require all Christians to MASTER BOTH of those languages in their ancient forms.
So I was first asking if YOU had mastered BOTH of those languages in their ancient forms.
If YOU have NOT MASTERED BOTH of those languages in their ancient forms,
then you should NOT be questioning, or deriding, other Christians, but rather YOURSELF.
Until YOU have MASTERED BOTH ancient languages, to a high level, then you are only acting hypocritical to question others who also have not.
Conclusion:
* You started this thread by railing on all Christians in general because every individual has not mastered ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek... but you yourself have ALSO not mastered these ancient languages.
* You need to either stop these hypocritical accusations entirely, or come back again in 10 or 20 years when you have fully mastered these languages.
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One last point:
I would suggest you have probably NOT YET even mastered ENGLISH, or ENGLISH COMPREHENSION very well...
or you would not have responded to me by saying, "Why do you ask?"
If you cannot understand the reasoning behind my simple questions in simple English, which is your first language...
how are you going to understand the reasoning behind complex propositions in dead, ancient languages, which you barely understand at all?
I would suggest you have probably NOT YET even mastered ENGLISH, or ENGLISH COMPREHENSION very well...
or you would not have responded to me by saying, "Why do you ask?"
If you cannot understand the reasoning behind my simple questions in simple English, which is your first language...
how are you going to understand the reasoning behind complex propositions in dead, ancient languages, which you barely understand at all?
If you're questioning my discernment, or motives, or authority... then you are now judging ME!
Did someone appoint YOU a judge?
Can you not even stand up to your own logic?
Your statement above is illogical, silly, pointless, and unbiblical.
Which place should I start?
All Christians are to have discernment, and all christians are to judge everything by the Bible.
Therefore, since all christians are to have discernment, and are to discern and judge things (1Thess.5:21, 1Co.2:16, 5:12, 6:2, 6:3, 6:4, 6:5, 10:15) your statement is actually accusing me of doing the very thing we are SUPPOSED to be doing...
and therefore your statement is just wrong, and silly, and pointless.
I'm done here.
You'll have to troll someone else if you're bored.
Have fun.
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That is good. May their number increase until every man has the Scriptures in his own language.
Because learning Greek and Hebrew is a difficult enough task for high level intellectuals. For the majority it would be impossible. I have studied Hebrew for four years and Greek for much longer, and won prizes in both. But I would not claim to be 'proficient' in either language. It is useful for consulting the Greek and Hebrew texts but my English version is the one I use most often. Hebrew was the language of Israel. Greek was widespread and known throughout the Roman world. The non Hebrew Christians read the OT in Greek rather than Hebrew because they understood it. Both Jesus and the Apostles cite the Greek translation to make the Hebrew better understood.
And it was so, and is so today. We just need to ensure that they are reasonably accurate..
with the good translations it was God
I think this statement is nonsensical. Behaviour is determined by the heart, not by the translation. Even a poor version is better that no version. The Scripture message is not in a few texts but in the whole.
Millions of Muslims cannot read Arabic. Even of those who learn it by heart in Arabic millions do not understand it. They learn it parrot fashion,
It would help later on, but is not necessary. The truth of the Bible is not in a few minute texts but in its overall truth,
[quote[please i need honest opinions![/QUOTE]
you have one lol
Because learning Greek and Hebrew is a difficult enough task for high level intellectuals. For the majority it would be impossible. I have studied Hebrew for four years and Greek for much longer, and won prizes in both. But I would not claim to be 'proficient' in either language. It is useful for consulting the Greek and Hebrew texts but my English version is the one I use most often. Hebrew was the language of Israel. Greek was widespread and known throughout the Roman world. The non Hebrew Christians read the OT in Greek rather than Hebrew because they understood it. Both Jesus and the Apostles cite the Greek translation to make the Hebrew better understood.
And it was so, and is so today. We just need to ensure that they are reasonably accurate..
with the good translations it was God
I think this statement is nonsensical. Behaviour is determined by the heart, not by the translation. Even a poor version is better that no version. The Scripture message is not in a few texts but in the whole.
Millions of Muslims cannot read Arabic. Even of those who learn it by heart in Arabic millions do not understand it. They learn it parrot fashion,
It would help later on, but is not necessary. The truth of the Bible is not in a few minute texts but in its overall truth,
[quote[please i need honest opinions![/QUOTE]
you have one lol
D
Actually, the Bible wasn't changed in 300 AD. It became a book in that century. That was the century when all the letters and all the scrolls were gathered together, and the ones truly inspired by God were assembled into the Bible. And the pretty-good-advice-but-not-inspired and the counterfeits were tossed aside.
As for translations? Are you bilingual? If you are, how are you at translating anything from one language to the other without having the same concept in any given word in both languages? Contrary to popular beliefs, Bible scholars that create new versions take the most ancient of manuscripts they can find and try to translate dead languages into modern languages so we can understand. This is necessary, because even in a version written a mere 400 years ago, and in English, the words say God is "awful." And it is the right word for that translation. It's just that English moved from thinking awful means full of awe to awful means terrible. Language forever evolves so more and more translations for those of us who don't know more than one language, and only know the most modern form of that one language.
A good thing, not a bad thing.
As for translations? Are you bilingual? If you are, how are you at translating anything from one language to the other without having the same concept in any given word in both languages? Contrary to popular beliefs, Bible scholars that create new versions take the most ancient of manuscripts they can find and try to translate dead languages into modern languages so we can understand. This is necessary, because even in a version written a mere 400 years ago, and in English, the words say God is "awful." And it is the right word for that translation. It's just that English moved from thinking awful means full of awe to awful means terrible. Language forever evolves so more and more translations for those of us who don't know more than one language, and only know the most modern form of that one language.
A good thing, not a bad thing.
Hi Synergy , Your question is a good one, the point of your question about learning Hebrew or the Greek language for understanding Gods word; I think that can be answered by asking yourself in your own native language have you ever had to ask questions to get clarification from another speaker in your own language.
We always need to ask questions for more clarity in conversations, translation from one language to another has this issue also but a good translation does not add a lesser understanding to the reader from what the original language stated.
If you have ever translated from one language to another you will see that this is true.
Dan
We always need to ask questions for more clarity in conversations, translation from one language to another has this issue also but a good translation does not add a lesser understanding to the reader from what the original language stated.
If you have ever translated from one language to another you will see that this is true.
Dan