-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P
Here is what you said :"Seriously, this is about American politics, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible. Vote how you please, don't use the Bible Discussion Forum to push your politics!
PS. As much as Americans would like to believe otherwise, America is never mentioned in the Bible! So how you vote is not going to influence the return of Jesus, or reaching the world for Christ!"
Excuse me for the reach, but it seems to me you are implying that Christian chat and bible discussion is no place for politics, that the two need to be kept separate. Which made me think that if you don't vote from your religious convictions you must not vote.
Christ called out the ruling political/religious party of the day very, very, sharply. Called them all manner of names. He recognized that our rulers lead us into destruction. An eternal destruction that absolutely he was compelled to resist publicly. There is no other way to understand what happened during the weeks leading up to His murder. He called them out in the temples and He called them out in the town square...on the streets where they sought Him out as He ministered to the public.
Let me put out a somewhat theoretical event. I say theoretical, but I very nearly duplicated such an occurrence. I will qualify my remarks by stating the fact that I was a single parent for some 7 years. Raised 2 daughters alone until they left home at the age of 18, so I was there for some very formative years and events. I have been in parent-teacher conferences, in meetings with principals and teachers alone, attended and spoke at school board meetings.
Let's start with some scripture :
Proverbs 22:6 - Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
The way he should go is how we learn to raise them from God given instructions.Let's say the school is teaching and doing things that are against bible teaching. Being a single parent, I can't home school and being a poor man, I can't afford private school. What are my options? To be quiet? I am required by God (He told me - train that child in the way it should go) to intervene and influence the curriculum and mannerisms of the school if at all possible. I do this with meetings and voting. That is not an option. I must vote for the person that is best qualified to teach my children.
Now let me address some of the others here, Jason specifically. How exactly do you think civil authority was established? Where did it come from? (red would like this - I'm getting in the old testament)
It is from God and He told us to put those in charge that follow and obey His will.
Are you going to be foolish enough to tell me Moses went against God's will by doing this? There are many instances thoughout the old testament. When people have the opportunity, are allowed to influence, selection of leaders, God instructs us to do so. This is as plain as the nose on your face.
Our government tells us to vote. God said to obey authority.
God granted these people their request. They asked for the wrong thing, a king, but that was the only mistake they made here. They didn't know the king would turn out badly. They ignored good advice to get one, but the purpose wasn't to err. The current rulers were crooked. What did they do? Went straight to the top in an effort to stop that. That isn't what displeased God - it was them asking for a king.
Christ stopped Peter when he attacked the soldier. Why didn't Christ just pray to God to prevent Peter from cutting off his ear? To think that when you have the ability and opportunity to act to prevent evil and the only thing God wants you to do is pray, is ludicrous. Why didn't Christ kneel and pray to the Father to drive the moneychangers out of the temple? There are times to act on your faith. Not enlisting in the army, but using government granted methods of influencing our solons to act better.
I could go on all night, but what is there is sufficient to make my point clearly. Those who refuse to vote are shirking their civil duty, and not being obedient to their faith.
PS. As much as Americans would like to believe otherwise, America is never mentioned in the Bible! So how you vote is not going to influence the return of Jesus, or reaching the world for Christ!"
Excuse me for the reach, but it seems to me you are implying that Christian chat and bible discussion is no place for politics, that the two need to be kept separate. Which made me think that if you don't vote from your religious convictions you must not vote.
Christ called out the ruling political/religious party of the day very, very, sharply. Called them all manner of names. He recognized that our rulers lead us into destruction. An eternal destruction that absolutely he was compelled to resist publicly. There is no other way to understand what happened during the weeks leading up to His murder. He called them out in the temples and He called them out in the town square...on the streets where they sought Him out as He ministered to the public.
Let me put out a somewhat theoretical event. I say theoretical, but I very nearly duplicated such an occurrence. I will qualify my remarks by stating the fact that I was a single parent for some 7 years. Raised 2 daughters alone until they left home at the age of 18, so I was there for some very formative years and events. I have been in parent-teacher conferences, in meetings with principals and teachers alone, attended and spoke at school board meetings.
Let's start with some scripture :
Proverbs 22:6 - Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
The way he should go is how we learn to raise them from God given instructions.Let's say the school is teaching and doing things that are against bible teaching. Being a single parent, I can't home school and being a poor man, I can't afford private school. What are my options? To be quiet? I am required by God (He told me - train that child in the way it should go) to intervene and influence the curriculum and mannerisms of the school if at all possible. I do this with meetings and voting. That is not an option. I must vote for the person that is best qualified to teach my children.
Now let me address some of the others here, Jason specifically. How exactly do you think civil authority was established? Where did it come from? (red would like this - I'm getting in the old testament)
It is from God and He told us to put those in charge that follow and obey His will.
Are you going to be foolish enough to tell me Moses went against God's will by doing this? There are many instances thoughout the old testament. When people have the opportunity, are allowed to influence, selection of leaders, God instructs us to do so. This is as plain as the nose on your face.
Our government tells us to vote. God said to obey authority.
God granted these people their request. They asked for the wrong thing, a king, but that was the only mistake they made here. They didn't know the king would turn out badly. They ignored good advice to get one, but the purpose wasn't to err. The current rulers were crooked. What did they do? Went straight to the top in an effort to stop that. That isn't what displeased God - it was them asking for a king.
Christ stopped Peter when he attacked the soldier. Why didn't Christ just pray to God to prevent Peter from cutting off his ear? To think that when you have the ability and opportunity to act to prevent evil and the only thing God wants you to do is pray, is ludicrous. Why didn't Christ kneel and pray to the Father to drive the moneychangers out of the temple? There are times to act on your faith. Not enlisting in the army, but using government granted methods of influencing our solons to act better.
I could go on all night, but what is there is sufficient to make my point clearly. Those who refuse to vote are shirking their civil duty, and not being obedient to their faith.
Last edited by a moderator:
Let's start with not putting words in my mouth! I never said don't vote, or don't vote for the person who you think best exemplifies your personal or religious dogma.
What I said was that voting really has nothing to do with the BIBLE discussion forum. This is much better a topic for the Misc. or the News forums.
As for the Pharisees, I would NOT say they were the ruling party. Rather the Jewish sect which fought with the Saduccees for control of the Sanhedrin. Let's face it, even Jesus had to appear before the Romans in order to be put to death. That is because the ROMANS were the RULERS!
Jesus condemned the Pharisees because they distorted God's Word, while pretending to keep it. That is a vastly different subject than the democratic election of officials in modern day America!
What I said was that voting really has nothing to do with the BIBLE discussion forum. This is much better a topic for the Misc. or the News forums.
As for the Pharisees, I would NOT say they were the ruling party. Rather the Jewish sect which fought with the Saduccees for control of the Sanhedrin. Let's face it, even Jesus had to appear before the Romans in order to be put to death. That is because the ROMANS were the RULERS!
Jesus condemned the Pharisees because they distorted God's Word, while pretending to keep it. That is a vastly different subject than the democratic election of officials in modern day America!
K
First off I'm not American but Canadian.Moved here 13yrs ago.You did seem very angry and that is why I responded as I did.Its late in the game to discuss what was said.I posted a good video on why Christians should vote in a thread under that title and its relevance to the Bible if you care to check it out.Suffice to say we disagree tho I do believe a party doesn't save anyone.Only Christ can do that.
P
That is simply not true.
The religious parties in the day of Christ were the political parties. And Christ dealt with everyone of them. Form the Pharisees, saducees, to the herodians. (Matthew 22:16)
We are compelled to vote, to have a hand in our government. Christ expects us to live for Him 24/7. We are never to set aside our religious convictions to participate in anything. You have not studied and thought about this enough or you would be aware of what I am saying. This is all bible, not phil.
Here is an accurate explanation of politics, religion, and Christ. Jesus no "politician"
1 Corinthians 5:9,10 "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:[SUP] [/SUP]Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world."
We are to avoid associating with sinners closely, but it is impossible to avoid them and still be on this planet. By that scripture alone we should understand that when we must associate with the world it is by Christ's teachings. Let your light shine. The light that He has put in you thru His word and the spirit. To say we must separate ourselves from politics is naïve.
The religious parties in the day of Christ were the political parties. And Christ dealt with everyone of them. Form the Pharisees, saducees, to the herodians. (Matthew 22:16)
We are compelled to vote, to have a hand in our government. Christ expects us to live for Him 24/7. We are never to set aside our religious convictions to participate in anything. You have not studied and thought about this enough or you would be aware of what I am saying. This is all bible, not phil.
Here is an accurate explanation of politics, religion, and Christ. Jesus no "politician"
1 Corinthians 5:9,10 "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:[SUP] [/SUP]Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world."
We are to avoid associating with sinners closely, but it is impossible to avoid them and still be on this planet. By that scripture alone we should understand that when we must associate with the world it is by Christ's teachings. Let your light shine. The light that He has put in you thru His word and the spirit. To say we must separate ourselves from politics is naïve.
Wow, now not just putting words in my mouth, but pulling my words out if context, and twisting them to suit your agenda! And directly after an apology (accepted, of course!) for the first issue (crime??)!
I will in future note that your citations of the Bible are suspect, because of your inability to quote correctly, and reading things that are not there! Maybe you need to study hermeneutics, or just plain English interpretation, since you don't seem to get the basics of discussion and arguments (in a philosophical sense!)
In the mean time I will clarify my point, which is that there is NO "Christian" vote, but rather individuals voting for their preferred candidates. No party is perfect, nor does any party represent Christ or the Bible!
Which brings me to my second point, which is - this is a forum for discussing the BIBLE! Of course, you can probably legitimately add theology to that discussion!
But stop proselytizing your particular political view, under the name of religion in this forum. Take the politics elsewhere, because the Kingdom of God will not be found in politics, not yesterday, today, or forever!
And I am not mad, just slightly annoyed at the constant barrage of politics that appears in a forum which is supposed to be dedicated to discussing the BIBLE! (And not just this thread right now. There is another thread with one person only actually posting scripture verses, although sometimes out context to support a particular and cherished opinion!)
I will in future note that your citations of the Bible are suspect, because of your inability to quote correctly, and reading things that are not there! Maybe you need to study hermeneutics, or just plain English interpretation, since you don't seem to get the basics of discussion and arguments (in a philosophical sense!)
In the mean time I will clarify my point, which is that there is NO "Christian" vote, but rather individuals voting for their preferred candidates. No party is perfect, nor does any party represent Christ or the Bible!
Which brings me to my second point, which is - this is a forum for discussing the BIBLE! Of course, you can probably legitimately add theology to that discussion!
But stop proselytizing your particular political view, under the name of religion in this forum. Take the politics elsewhere, because the Kingdom of God will not be found in politics, not yesterday, today, or forever!
And I am not mad, just slightly annoyed at the constant barrage of politics that appears in a forum which is supposed to be dedicated to discussing the BIBLE! (And not just this thread right now. There is another thread with one person only actually posting scripture verses, although sometimes out context to support a particular and cherished opinion!)
Jason, Jesus laid His crown down so to speak in exchange for a crown of thorns. In doing so He yielded sovereignty to make men His brothers. He told His disciples he wouldn't call them servants, but from then on FRIENDS. What we received by way of Jesus, Son of God, is full status as children of God, free to choose from good or evil instead of being slaves to sin. We still have charge of dominion here on earth, and will answer for our choices.
P
Crime? It is a crime to disagree with you? My, my, I don't know where you live, but here in Oklahoma we have no such law.
Originally Posted by Angela53510
................................My point is that this is the BIBLE discussion forum, and politics has NOTHING to do with the Bible! Not American, Canadian or any other country!!..................................
You started the sentence with a capitol letter. You ended it with exclamation points. That sentence is a statement that stands on it's own. There is no "context" involved with such a statement. You said the Pharisees weren't the main or ruling party, however you put it, and I gave you scripture where Christ got crossways with everyone of them. The religious party was the political party in that time. You cannot deny that and tell the truth at the same time. You cannot separate your spiritual life from your political views. God does not want you to. He wants you to walk the walk 24/7/365. If you vote, you must vote your religious convictions, else your convictions aren't worth much. As I said, to hold the view you do of this topic is naïve.
Until Jesus returns to rule 1,000 years on earth, our politics IS a major part of our government. The government is not yet on Jesus' shoulders. It will be. Meanwhile it is not "meet" to leave that up to atheists, extremist liberals, and the outright wicked. It has been God's will all along to maintain as godly a government as possible.
Proverbs 29:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
That is timeless wisdom from God.
In this time of man the only proven method of having benefit of that scripture is to have a government style of either pure democracy or democratic republic representative government.
The latter has been the most enabling of the preaching of the gospel, and general well-being of the governed.
The former requires excessive time investment of the whole electorate, which ought to be about their various callings.
The topic most definitely rests well under Bible Discussion Forum. That verse alone makes it so. The only way people can have a say about which kind of rule they will be governed by is not by autocratic rule by a dictator or king and his friends, but to seize upon the one form of government that can be shaped by voters. The American way!
Proverbs 29:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
That is timeless wisdom from God.
In this time of man the only proven method of having benefit of that scripture is to have a government style of either pure democracy or democratic republic representative government.
The latter has been the most enabling of the preaching of the gospel, and general well-being of the governed.
The former requires excessive time investment of the whole electorate, which ought to be about their various callings.
The topic most definitely rests well under Bible Discussion Forum. That verse alone makes it so. The only way people can have a say about which kind of rule they will be governed by is not by autocratic rule by a dictator or king and his friends, but to seize upon the one form of government that can be shaped by voters. The American way!
I must disagree again.
Where does it say faith is about the "unseen" only?
I prefer Hebrews 11:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For by it the elders obtained a good report.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Can you see evidence of the creation? Have you no hope? Is all you desire still unseen and not founded upon hope? Faith has substance. It provides evidence that can be seen of things not seen in the natural, such as words spoken, and atoms, and the wind. God's word produces enough evidence that even though one might not yet see with the natural eyes what is hoped for, it is seen before materializing.
I have never voted for a world leader. I have never voted for any candidate that is not an active Christian submitted to a local church. Even the unchurched tend to find comfort in voting for the "churched", Christian or not. Why? Atheists don't typically show significant benevolence in their communities, for one matter.
If a person willingly gives up the right to preach the gospel by inattention to community issues, that is not a good citizen to trust. I would be very nervous having a neighbor that is equally satisfied having God choose an evil ruler, or a righteous one for us. That would be an absurd predicament. The evil one would then be able to destroy us both for no reason other than a whim. At the very least we are commanded to pray for our rulers, and to obey the judges. We are also commanded by Jesus to preach the gospel to every creature. That is impossible under evil rulership. Will you be happy to have judges who rule no Christian may live under a roof or speak in public? Only non-Christians may enjoy the benefits of civilization? Would it be God's will for Satan to gain the souls of the world without resistance from the Church by preaching liberty in Christ? Rather, it is God who gives wealth for that one reasonDeuteronomy 8:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
That applied to a major principle of God that sustained the Hebrews in the wilderness for 40 years prior to the giving of the law of Moses at the end of that journey. We too must remember the LORD our God who wishes the same for all generations that obey Him. The evil rulers will not let you have that blessing, but will promote slavery, soft slavery (welfare state), and inevitable accompanying disabling poverty.
Satan's world system is corrupt, but not the American way! If yu don't do your part to keep it good, given by God, then the non-voter, and the ones choosing evil, have no reason to complain other than to express free speech.
Where does it say faith is about the "unseen" only?
I prefer Hebrews 11:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For by it the elders obtained a good report.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Can you see evidence of the creation? Have you no hope? Is all you desire still unseen and not founded upon hope? Faith has substance. It provides evidence that can be seen of things not seen in the natural, such as words spoken, and atoms, and the wind. God's word produces enough evidence that even though one might not yet see with the natural eyes what is hoped for, it is seen before materializing.
I have never voted for a world leader. I have never voted for any candidate that is not an active Christian submitted to a local church. Even the unchurched tend to find comfort in voting for the "churched", Christian or not. Why? Atheists don't typically show significant benevolence in their communities, for one matter.
If a person willingly gives up the right to preach the gospel by inattention to community issues, that is not a good citizen to trust. I would be very nervous having a neighbor that is equally satisfied having God choose an evil ruler, or a righteous one for us. That would be an absurd predicament. The evil one would then be able to destroy us both for no reason other than a whim. At the very least we are commanded to pray for our rulers, and to obey the judges. We are also commanded by Jesus to preach the gospel to every creature. That is impossible under evil rulership. Will you be happy to have judges who rule no Christian may live under a roof or speak in public? Only non-Christians may enjoy the benefits of civilization? Would it be God's will for Satan to gain the souls of the world without resistance from the Church by preaching liberty in Christ? Rather, it is God who gives wealth for that one reasonDeuteronomy 8:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
That applied to a major principle of God that sustained the Hebrews in the wilderness for 40 years prior to the giving of the law of Moses at the end of that journey. We too must remember the LORD our God who wishes the same for all generations that obey Him. The evil rulers will not let you have that blessing, but will promote slavery, soft slavery (welfare state), and inevitable accompanying disabling poverty.
Satan's world system is corrupt, but not the American way! If yu don't do your part to keep it good, given by God, then the non-voter, and the ones choosing evil, have no reason to complain other than to express free speech.
Last edited:
Apparently they all partied in Colorado instead of going to their polls. Another possibility was failure to focus clearly on the ballot text, just hitting the names on top, which are newcomers, while the candidates on bottom are incumbents (up for re-election). All of our incumbents were Democrats, so stopping at the top candidate assured a Republican sweep. That helped us serious voters have more time to be sure to read the constitution issues, and make sure we made no errors, then get outside to campaign, informing voters of what they will be looking at, and a few glitches to watch out for. The younger folks filled theirs out in seconds, scrambling to get back on their cellphones. We went from all D to all R except for two out of dozens of contests, one of which I voted for. Yes, I did it. I voted across party lines. First time ever.
All kidding aside about the pot/drug legalization thing, while we were voting responsibly there would be legally drugged hoards of those zombies on our porches, breaking in, cutting power poles down for the copper wires, keeping the law enforcement folks from making it to the polls. I think I prefer to keep it difficult and risky to get hold of that stuff
All kidding aside about the pot/drug legalization thing, while we were voting responsibly there would be legally drugged hoards of those zombies on our porches, breaking in, cutting power poles down for the copper wires, keeping the law enforcement folks from making it to the polls. I think I prefer to keep it difficult and risky to get hold of that stuff